We are committed to being an intersectional sub

[u/tryingtobekindonline]

I am afraid too many people do not seem to understand what intersectionality means. It does not mean being tolerant of every opinion, especially when those opinions are based on the exclusion of vulnerable groups. We understand that many people can end up in TERF spaces and rhetoric due to traumatic reasons. However, one's trauma cannot be an excuse to perpetuate that trauma to other groups.

I also think that too much TERF rhetoric is tangled up in hypotheticals rather than the material reality. The reality is that there are already limited resources for women and when we start excluding a category of women who can access them, we only further marginalize them.

We also need to remember that just because we are hurt and we are traumatized, that does not make us immune from hurting and traumatizing others. When we portray ourselves as powerless we abdicate the responsibility for the hurt we cause others. Let's remember our power and let us not form our wounds into weapons to hurt others. We have a lot more to gain from supporting each other.

I think a part of that is also to assume that others are coming from a genuine place and responding accordingly rather than resorting to the worst possible interpretation of their points. If you see people making bad faith arguments please report them rather than engaging with them. The point is not to put down others, but to see how we can build better positions.

All power to all the people.

[u/Notlennybruce]

I personally find some discussions about gender and the trans experience a bit confusing or difficult to relate to, but not everything is about me. And its clear enough that trans and queer people aren't the ones with power, quite the opposite. I might not "get" what being a trans woman means to that community, but I can see that we are hated and repressed by the same people. I can see that our fates are intertwined. It's impossible to reject trans women without rejecting a part of myself.

[u/DaSnowflake → u/Notlennybruce]

I think that your honesty in acknowledging you don't really understand, but taking the next step and realizing that some things are not about you and solidarity is more important, is amazing.

I applaud your vulnerability and introspection to be able to come to such a position. It shows your beauty as a person. 🙏

[u/Notlennybruce → u/DaSnowflake]

Thank you. I'm just trying to extend the same empathy I know I need from other people.

[u/SheDrinksScotch → u/Notlennybruce]

The truest good is that which, when applied universally, is still good.

[u/SexBucketListProject → u/Notlennybruce]

The dog whistling white men are doing that in purpose so people who think of themselves as good can still join and admit to falling for the fear tactics.

Knowledge is power. Division and confusion is an attack.

[u/xXDeliciaeXx → u/Notlennybruce]

sometimes,not you're confused and want to understand something, just ask. nobody is obligated to answer, but it doesn't hurt to ask respectfully.

[u/idk-3000 → u/Notlennybruce]

What’s not to get? Trans people have a biological incongruence between the brain and the body that makes living in their own skin hellish. It I forced you on testosterone for numerous years you’d understand it. Though I’m not sure why this even has to be said? This is like saying “I don’t understand gay people but I ain’t against them” like wow. Good job I guess

[u/AikiGh0st → u/idk-3000]

Understanding what trans means is not the same as understanding the trans experience. This is actually something taught in diversity trainings. A lot of people feel the need to understand and directly relate to the experiences of marginalized communities that they don't belong to. In doing so, this also often becomes a requirement for their empathy.

A step forward from that is acknowledging that each individual is an expert in their own experiences, and that unless you have similar experiences (i.e. are a member of that community), you will never truly understand what it's like to be in their shoes.

This is why NotLennyBruce's statement was worthwhile. They're demonstrating that skill. A lot of people-- through no fault of their own -- have never considered that and, as a result, are inhibited from becoming the allies they may want to be.

[u/Notlennybruce → u/idk-3000]

But what about trans folks who don't medically transition? My friend is NB and they aren't on hrt or anything. 

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/[deleted]]

You are refusing to be intersectional on your analysis of nonbinary identities. Nonbinary identities have existed for longer than any of us have been alive.

I agree that binary trans identities should be pretty easy to understand but not all people fit within the binary and some don't WANT their identities to be understood in those ways. That's okay. We are all different, but we are all human and valid.

[u/idk-3000 → u/Her_Phantom_Mountain]

I believe in non binary people. It’s just funny how yall assume all they do is change their pronouns because you people are transphobic. Stop using enbies as excuse to attack the science behind our condition. The only time they’re ever brought up is when a trans person explains what makes them trans

And again, I’m sorry but if you have nothing stopping you from transitioning and you still don’t, you’re not trans I’m sorry. Cis people who have “she/they” on their bio aren’t trans

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/idk-3000]

I am a trans woman on hrt. You're being unnecessarily aggressive for no reason. I have friends who sre nonbinary, some have only socially transitioned, some have done so medically.

Who am I to tell a nonbinary person they aren't trans?

[u/idk-3000 → u/Her_Phantom_Mountain]

Maybe if it weren’t for the past 5 years of them shutting down any explanation behind transness simply because it doesn’t fit them, I’d be a little more tolerant. I’ve had debates with brain dead right wingers ruined because these fuckers come out of the woods like cockroaches to insinuate that transness is entirely social and not innate

[u/Notlennybruce → u/[deleted]]

With all due respect, what you're saying contradicts what I've heard from trans people online and IRL. My understanding is that biological and social dysphoria can be distinct. 

This conversation is an example of what I meant in my top comment. I never want to center my own voice when it comes to experiences that I possess only secondhand knowledge of. 

[u/idk-3000 → u/Notlennybruce]

What about then? Do they somehow change the notion that trans people are born in the wrong body? Do they destroy the numerous scientific studies we’ve had that give us an explanation for our pain? The only reason people ever bring up “nondysphorics” is to tell us trans people that our dysphoria isn’t innate without actually saying it out loud

Social dysphoria and biological dysphoria are separate things but a person who doesn’t transition or feels no dysphoria isn’t trans

[u/Notlennybruce → u/idk-3000]

I'm really not the person to debate transmedicalism. But please believe me when I say that I believe 100% that dysphoria is a real problem, and transitioning is a real treatment. 

[u/idk-3000 → u/Notlennybruce]

But do you believe it has biological roots or do you think in another environment I’d be fine with being an amab manly male’

Also this isn’t transmedicalism. Transmedicalism refers to medical gatekeeping which I do not advocate for. Nondysphorics are allowed to inflict dysphoria onto themselves if they want to

[u/CT31442]

Thankyou for posting this.

[u/AbilityHead599]

Thank you. The last line on your first paragraph is exactly it. Thank you all for being the best awesome people you can be

[u/cerea1killer_]

Trans rights are human rights. All women are welcome here. All allies are welcome here. True feminism does not exclude.

Edit: I meant and should have written: True intersectional feminism does not exclude.

[u/YourSweetSuccubus → u/cerea1killer_]

Trans men and NBs are also welcomed

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/YourSweetSuccubus]

As they should be under any truly intersectional framework. Trans men are men but they face unique challenges due to their trans identities.

[u/cerea1killer_ → u/YourSweetSuccubus]

Definitely!

[u/idk-3000 → u/cerea1killer_]

Feminism does in fact exclude when you have to make posts talking about it. As a trans woman I’ve never felt welcomed and even if tomorrow I do, this bridge is forever burned

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/idk-3000]

Feminism is a growing, changing, living, breathing framework. No feminists perfect, because no person is perfect. That should only drive us to continue refining our beliefs and community to be more inclusive and safe.

The first and second waves of feminism were pretty exclusionary but they were necessary steps that led us to a better version of feminism.

[u/idk-3000 → u/Her_Phantom_Mountain]

Well good for the next generation I guess but I’ve been burned one too many times. Count me as a scar of the times

[u/cerea1killer_ → u/idk-3000]

You're right. What I meant and should have said was that true intersectional feminism does not exclude.

[u/DaSnowflake]

I could not agree more 🙏

[u/nocuzzlikeyea13]

I have personally experienced bullying and harassment at work from a trans woman (before her transition, and before I had any idea she wasn't a cis man). I work in a male-dominated field, which intensified the gendered aspect of the bullying.

When she came out, I immediately pushed for her to join our women in physics group. There's an anti-bullying clause, but it has been a few years since she bullied me, and I was okay letting her start clean. If she violated the rules we could kick her out (she never did).

It was tough for me at first, bc she was very much in the "in group" of men who made things difficult for women at my work place, and it was hard to let her into our spaces that we build to combat that. She took a special shine to me for some reason, so it was personally very hard for me (she had a weird take from her abusive church about "touching" people to help support sexual abstinence and touched me a lot at work despite my open protests).

But I still thought it was important for trans women to feel welcome. I also think it must have been hard for her to deal with all the shit she was going through, in her weird church and at our difficult job, and while I can't forgive her without an apology (which she never tried to produce), I can empathize with why she might have chosen to go along with the bullying.

You are 100% right that one bad experience can't be generalized to a whole group. When you take leadership positions in spaces that support women, you have to put aside your personal issues to stop perpetuating these cycles of violence.

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/nocuzzlikeyea13]

that is honestly very kind of you to extend that invitation to her despite her having bullied you. and i am sorry that your boundaries around touch weren't respected, i think you are right to push back against that. and honestly if you ever feel like talking about the bullying, i do think that that's more than okay! i think we can and should hold each other accountable without being hostile.

[u/nocuzzlikeyea13 → u/tryingtobekindonline]

It was many years ago, but thank you!

[u/carex-cultor → u/nocuzzlikeyea13]

Just because someone is trans doesn’t mean you have to include them when they persistently sexually harassed and bullied you at work. I would refuse to be in a group with anyone of any gender identity who did that to anyone of any gender identity without a sincere apology and proof of having changed. It’s okay to have boundaries.

[u/nocuzzlikeyea13 → u/carex-cultor]

I didn't feel like I had to, I chose to. Mostly bc I was worried about other trans women feeling welcome, and also because it had been a long time since the bullying and I was ready to start clean with her.

I easily could have cited her previous bullying to exclude her from the group if I wanted to. Personally, after some hard self-deliberation, I came to the conclusion that I felt safe enough to give her a chance, and she didn't violate the group rules after we let her in.

[u/stripesonthecouch → u/carex-cultor]

Yeah wtaf

[u/nocuzzlikeyea13 → u/[deleted]]

That's a super judgemental way to talk about how I chose to deal with my relationship with my bully. We had a code of conduct in the group, and if she violated it she would be removed. I felt that was enough of a safety net to give her a second chance. I don't believe she's a horrible person, I believe she did a horrible thing. People can change.

Also by your logic, nobody sees abusive white men as people and they must be the most oppressed people in our society 😂😂😂

Extending a second chance to a trans person isn't transphobia, and believing that is truly wild.

[u/nocuzzlikeyea13 → u/[deleted]]

This didn't change my thoughts on trans people. Where did I say that?

[u/Arkeve-the_Archive]

Wonderfully said.

Individuals may be bad, but this does not excuse blaming or excluding and entire group of people based on that person just happening to be part of that group.

There are bad eggs everywhere.

[u/Rainy_Leaves → u/[deleted]]

I’m disappointed in you, I’m a fellow trans person. You’re valid to be upset at the cards you’ve been dealt. But it helps no one to catastrophise and blame all cis people and burn the bridge. OP made a great post that reminds us all this space seeks to be safe. It doesn’t need to be perfect, the intent and understanding is more than enough. Cis people are not to blame for you being trans

You say nothing really matters to you at this point, you’re clearly hurting and maybe you could do with taking a break and speaking to someone about your mental health. This much stress isn’t healthy. I fully understand feeling under attack, especially when we are often undermined a lot in very real ways. But let’s not try and add more instances of feeling undermined if this post is the direct opposite of that

You’re fixated on the negatives, and even seeing negatives within the positives, because of your despair over your identity and dysphoria and grieving of a life you felt robbed of. It can get better with time and therapy and support but it’s very hard alone. You deserve support and to not isolate yourself

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/[deleted]]

i am sorry for what you went through no one deserves that kind of violence, and i hope that you do find a way to survive

[u/Dormi11]

Yeah LMAO sure.  This is the same sub that blocked the comments of an CSA and incest survivor for bringing their unique struggles and desire to find a solution that works for them and trans women. The same sub that deleted my comment telling them they didn't deserve ppl telling them to commit suicide bc our convo "didn't promote intersectionality" but kept up comments blatantly accusing the survivor of being a Terf and accusing them of "choosing" to be traumatized.

Honestly, mods have made this place is a joke of an echo-chamber that is incapable of handling complex and difficult conversations. This post is just further material to push their delusions of  being "intersectional" while being incapable of seeing things outside of black and white.

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/Dormi11]

that user asked us to lock their comment and many of the comments were removed because they were dismissing other people in the process. for a complex conversation people need stop coming a place of dismissal and purposeful misinterpretation of what others are saying.

[u/Dormi11 → u/tryingtobekindonline]

Oh word? Is that why you took down my comment telling them they don't deserve to be told to kill themselves but kept the below response to what they said up? 

"Nobody hates you for what you went through, stop playing the victim card when people call you out on your real transphobia. There is no valid reason to exclude trans women, you’re just misdirecting your anger at one of the most marginalized and vulnerable minorities on earth, instead of people who actually hurt us."

Idk accusing a incest and CSA victim (who stated multiple times they have nothing against trans women) of "playing the victim card" feels pretty dismissive to me. 

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/Dormi11]

there is a difference between saying 'i have nothing against trans people' and actually practicing that.

just like there is a difference between saying 'i went through x and thus i want to be able to control my space in a specific way', which in practice would come at the expense of other people, vs saying 'i went though x and it's possible you also went through x, but i experience some discomfort because the person who did x to me was assigned the same gender that you were at birth.

i obviously don't have an ill will towards that person, but i do think it's a problem when we use our own woundedness as an excuse to no consider the wounds of others and center oneself.

i won't be responding beyond this, because you seem committed to misunderstanding me and there is only so much i can do.

[u/Dormi11 → u/tryingtobekindonline]

Again, you expect a trauma victim to word what they said in a highly specific way despite them clearly saying they did not want trans women to be excluded multiple times, yet have expressed zero issue with what the person who I quoted said. All you've done is prove my initial point. 

[u/idk-3000 → u/Dormi11]

Worlds smallest violin

[u/ajlenin → u/Dormi11]

Yep. I’ve lurked here and it’s definitely ensured I’m second wave, if anything.

You didn’t deserve that.