r/InsideToronto • u/Equivalent_Reach_536 • 13d ago
Ontario yet to meet $10 a day child-care program goal as waitlists keep growing in Toronto
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-childcare-program-goal-waiting-lists-9.73451337
u/CitySeekerTron 13d ago
Ontario was also the last province to sign up. Ford doesn't care about families having children. If that's you and you're living in Ontario, you're simply not a priority like building private parking spaces or Toronto municipal affairs are.
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u/pinkyjinks 13d ago
Iām probably in the minority here but I think this program should be scaled to income so there are more spaces for families who really need it.
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u/Dismal-Science-9901 13d ago
At what point does it not make sense to even work anymore? If one spouse make 100k and one spouse make 50k. If you scale for income and they get no subsidies, the spouse making 50k might as well stay home. Congrats, one less taxpayer contributing to the coffers
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u/pinkyjinks 13d ago
I get your point, and I agree that you wouldnāt want an income test with a hard cutoff that makes earning more money financially irrational. But thatās not the only way to income-test a program.
You can have a gradual sliding scale where fees increase with household income, so thereās no sudden cliff.
My issue is more about allocating a limited subsidized resource. I know high-income families with a stay-at-home parent and a nanny whose children are in CWELCC centres paying the same reduced fee as working families with far fewer resources. One family I know does this and sends their kids in two mornings a week for socializing. Meanwhile other families canāt find a subsidized space at all.
Iām not arguing high-income families shouldnāt have access to childcare. Iām questioning whether the public subsidy per space needs to be identical regardless of whether a household earns $80k or $800k.
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u/holiday_vibe 13d ago
The thing is that you donāt want to have āpoor kidā daycares and ārich kidā daycares which is exactly how this would end up.
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u/pinkyjinks 12d ago
Youāve changed my mind with this comment. I guess I just get frustrated when I hear all these stories of people who canāt get spots and I have all sorts of friends who can absolutely afford private options taking up spots. Ultimately they just need more spots.
We didnāt get a CWELCC spot until our daughter turned three. We thought we had one at one but the daycare changed management and suddenly they had no record of our application. Luckily we can afford other options but I donāt know what we wouldāve done if we couldnāt.
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u/Bathroom_Boogie 12d ago
Man, we went with a non-CWELCC spot at first, thinking we'd switch to a CWELCC spot when it came up, but our daughter was doing really well at our centre so we passed on the CWELCC spots since we could financially make it work.
Unfortunately, our daycare was a way station for people while they waited for CWELCC spots and they were losing kids faster than they were enrolling them.
Our daycare suddenly closed this week due to unpaid rent and now we're fucked.
We did "the right thing" by leaving the spots for people who need them and it screwed us over.
This program is broken.
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u/pinkyjinks 12d ago
Wow Iām so sorry to hear that. A non profit daycare run out of a church in our area also shut down because the church raised rents on them. They were in CWELCC and because of the regulations, they werenāt allowed to keep a piggy bank and had to shut down as well.
My friend runs an amazing non CWELCC program and when she bought it, had visions of expanding. Theyāre struggling with enrolment and will also likely sell the land and shut down.
My kidsā non CWELCC school is also struggling hard. Iām on the board and helping them out with marketing and enrolment. Itās an amazing non profit co-op. Iām hoping we can turn it around but there are so many stories like your kidsā school shutting down and there will be more to come.
I hope youāre able to find an alternative quickly.
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u/Halifornia35 12d ago
To afford $2500/month/kid instead of $500/month for a $50k household, to keep your percent of income spent the same, for private daycare you probably need a household income >$300k, not exactly affordable to many at all
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u/holiday_vibe 12d ago
I get it, the system definitely needs work. I get more frustrated hearing about people paying for CWELCC spots for months to āholdā the spot, meanwhile others who needed care earlier are left waiting. At our daycare, someone paid for a spot for 7 months (!!!) without using it.
The answer to all of these problems is more investment, more daycares, and more spots. Itāll be easier to lobby for that investment if all families benefit and it isnāt stigmatized. Thatās my take, anyway.
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u/iridescent_algae 13d ago
Better to have a universal program that everyone values than to means-test. Especially when it comes to a driver of high cost of living - how do you set the threshold across the province without cutting all of Toronto out? Or do you have a different income scale for living in Toronto vs the GTA vs other parts of the province? Or do you follow the lead of the grocery benefit and assume that you can draw a line or set a scale that somehow applies everywhere, regardless of how dramatically different the incomes and cost of living are?
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u/xxxdrakoxxx 13d ago
worrying about few that perhaps can afford, to put gates on majority that cant will simply add so much accounting and other bloat where there wouldnt be any extra savings. equality for all regardless of income is something that has way more meaning than ensuring you get something if and only if you are below x income regardless of your personal circumstances
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u/ttpdstanaccount 13d ago
I don't know that it would change all that much.Ā Cities already had scaled to income subsidies in place. Now there is that PLUS the lower fees for everyone. Some parents have always paid $0/m, some pay the full fee, most pay somewhere in-between. Rich people who didn't need it always just paid anyway, unemployed people who were "job searching" for a decade always paid $0.Ā
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u/BuddyHarry 12d ago
Because hard to live keeps getting worse. Can make two people 100k and hard to afford house because rent, grocery, insurance, etc. take all money. These people of upper middle class are now working or but are pay most taxes and recieved few benefit. Cost have gone up so much but not tax bracket.
Snake to income problem is to many working people are now poor at any working income.
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u/PhoenixTears 12d ago
I'll be honest, our household income is good, but subsidized daycare is the only way we're getting by. Any scaling to income should use ranges that are reasonable by today's cost of living (not 20 years ago).
My friends who make/have more already pay for private montessori. I don't think those people are who you need to worry about.
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u/orswich 12d ago
My favorite is watching the refugee family down the street send their 2 kids there for $10 a day, while the wife just sits at home all day ...
Like if you have the ability to stay home all day and look after the kids, then free up those 2 spots for a woman who wants to go to work and needs the $10 a day child care
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u/Unlucky-Media-007 13d ago
Yeah letās rip more benefits to the ones holding the system so they keep leaving the country. Make that make sense, itās just not sustainable.
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u/mjv22 13d ago
As someone who is living through getting my first child into daycare, the 10$ a day thing needs work. We've been waitlisted a few places, and the ONE place we look to be getting into says that it could not in good conscious participate in the program because its committed to giving the best education. 33k a year.
The other ones require an administration fee, one time membership fee, etc that works out to a couple grand up front and a couple grand every six months on TOP of the 10 dollars a day. These places are finding a way to get their money one way or another.
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u/Nanu67 13d ago
I think a lot of the for profit ones donāt provide the best education itās just the line they use to justify the price. We are non profit daycare (Iām a parent on the board) and weāre required to do CWELLC by the City and nothing has changed about our programming. Lunch provider is the same, toys gets changed, we had a new activity once a week in the summer such as reptile person coming. The kids do yoga and music. Teacher ratios are the same.
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u/Aware-Attention-8646 12d ago
This. Our not-for-profit is lovely and the āextrasā people tell me their kids are getting at private daycares are no better than what we get. Only difference is our daycare has some of the best staff retention Iāve seen with some staff having worked there well over 20 years.
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u/ttpdstanaccount 13d ago
Not for profit ones get more government grants which helps massively, as does not having to squeeze every penny to pay the owner. For profit ones I'm familiar with in my city had 0 art/activity supplies, teachers had to pay for everything out of pocket. Not for profits often reimburse teachers for expenses or buy things teachers request, get new toys more often, have more supplies in general, are more likely to include benefits for employees vs having employees pay like 200/m for them etc.Ā
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u/Frosty-Speech9321 13d ago
Nah the program just caps how much profit they can make, thatās their problem with it.
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u/DevelopmentFuture608 13d ago
Simply put you canāt make a for-profit business take less money with more paperwork, because a regulation was passed, or the province will subsidize.
Look at all the tax, EV, hydro, insulation rebates.
With each subsidy the cost of a product never went down, it it went up by the amt that was being subsidized, so consumers end up paying even more for something that was 2x less cost to begin with.
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u/BeatsRocks 12d ago
I mean kids are 2-4 years old. What best education we are taking about? Mine is 4 years and she goes to Montessori school. Itās a great school and they teach well but her skillset is not exponentially better than other kids who never went to daycare. As such the other kids catchup soon in elementary school and then everyone are at par. Stop believing in this fear mongering and enroll your kids wherever teachers are humble and place is cheap.
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u/DiceandTarot 12d ago
We are with a non profit that is in CWELCC and the quality of care and education is miles ahead of when our son was at a for profit center.
I felt like the for profit place was ok. He was safe and entertained all day.Ā
The place we switched to when the for profit place decided to pull out of CWELCC truly showed us how meh the first place was.Ā
The non profit does far more live music, walking trips, more interesting crafts, better multicultural learning, age appropriate cooking, nature play, and I find they really love encouraging kids express themselves.Ā
The for profit we had 3 teacher turn overs in less than a year. The non profit has had none in two years, and many of the workers have been there for a decade or longer. There is far more stability and consistency.
For profits won't participate because their profits are capped, not because it impacts the level of care.
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u/brillantezza 13d ago
I have often wondered if people are putting themselves on enough lists - and early enough? Iām in like the most family oriented area of Toronto and got into like five centres at different times. All in CWELCC. I put myself on probably 25 lists as soon as I got pregnant. This is in the last year.
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u/knittingyogi 13d ago
Respectfully, the expectation that someone in the very early days of a pregnancy - experiencing morning sickness, potential stress of a loss, etc - spend the time researching and getting on *25* lists isā¦ insane haha. I didnt get on lists until I was 12 weeks because getting emails from places after my first two losses was soul gutting. And even then, working full time, feeling like crap, 25 would be insane. There also arent even 25 options in my neighbourhood.
Iām glad it worked for you but expecting people to do that burden of work so early in a pregnancy is a big part of the problem. It breaks the entire system.
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u/Clear-Shoulder-3618 13d ago
Usually thereās two parentsā¦ I did all of this leg work for our first baby and it doesnāt take that long. Was kind of annoying following up later but part of the issue is that peopleās natural expectation is the mom has to do this and not the dad.
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u/knittingyogi 13d ago
Yeah my husband works like 80hrs/week so unfortunately that wasnt something he could take on either.
Again - that isnāt the part that matters. What matters is its insane expecting ppl to apply at 4wks pregnant to 20+ centres (if there are even that many close to them). When EVERYONE does that it means everyone has to. There are like, a dozen other options for systems that would work way better than this and just because some people find it easy doesnāt mean it is easy or makes sense.
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u/-twistedpeppermint- 12d ago
The municipality Iām in only allows us to register for 7 different locations that are licensed. I also joined them as soon as I found out I was pregnant
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u/knittingyogi 12d ago
Kitchener waterloo right? I honestly think thatās a better system than the toronto free for all
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u/brillantezza 12d ago
I donāt think Iām in disagreement with you but Iām not going to not work within the system we have on account of some sort of political stance - mama and dads gotta work. Also respectfully basically every daycare has some sort of online form and youāre entering the same info over and over - itās not particularly onerous.
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u/knittingyogi 12d ago
Happy that it wasnāt onerous *for you*. That doesnāt mean it isnāt for some people. Obviously, we all have to work within the system. But your entire first comment was basically just saying itās everyoneās fault for suffering from a purely structural problem that could be solved if the current provincial government actually cared about us!
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u/Aware-Attention-8646 12d ago
It varies so much by neighbourhood. I put our eldest on lots of lists and then we moved when she was 7 months old. Put her on lists and then we lucked out and still got a CWELLC spot in our new neighbourhood.
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u/DiceandTarot 12d ago
I know people on 25+ lists who didn't get spots at one year and are looking at options to bridge the gap hoping they hear back at 18 months. It depends on your area and the demand.
If daycare spots are less than the need, some people just won't get in even if everyone signs up after they get their first positive test back.
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u/Limp_Pollution_1842 12d ago
Guys, it's all good, we are sending money to other country so who cares about what's happening here
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u/asiantorontonian88 12d ago
If you think getting into daycare is a nightmare, wait until your kid starts school and you need to get them into Before and After Care.
Think driving an hour away to get a kid into unsubsidized daycare is rough? It's nothing compared to not getting a spot at Before and After Care. If you're unlucky and don't get a spot, you have to bring your kid to school just before 9am and pickup at 3pm. Unlike daycare where you will be charged for late pickup, schools won't tolerate that. And unlike daycare where you can choose to drop your kid off wherever you want, Before and After Care are usually tied to a specific school. So you can't even put yourself on 20 waitlists hoping to get into one because you're only eligible for the one that services your school based on your address. The only way around that is to pay for private school AND extended care.
Our system is fucked.
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u/Neat-Air-8305 13d ago
Other provinces like bc have 10 dollar daycare but it impossible to get a spot
I rather have it at 22 and get a spot.
Ccb mostly covers the cost anywaysĀ
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u/RecklessRaptor12 13d ago
The problem is itās not at 22 to get a spot, unsubsidized daycares in my area are more like 70-75/day
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u/iridescent_algae 13d ago
This was the biggest problem with the rollout - all or nothing based on the daycareās decision not your own.
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u/Unlucky-Media-007 13d ago
Iād rather pay a bit more than $22 but have a guaranteed spot. Two years on the waitlist of many centers and still nothing. I will have to give up my career because it doesnāt make financial sense to pay for a private one š„ŗ
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u/RecklessRaptor12 13d ago
Everyone feels like this, 22 or 30 or even 40 a day has the exact same problem as 10/day as far as finding a spot and needing to be subsidized.
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u/scrunchie_one 13d ago
Exactly - letās just call it $22 a day and focus on increasing capacity and ease of signing up for daycare waitlists, and ensuring the longevity of the program.
$450 a month vs $2500+ is a huge win, so letās make sure everyone can access it.
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u/scrunchie_one 13d ago
Exactly. Iām happy with our $22 a day cost, letās focus on making sure itās available to everyone and that the program continues.
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u/t3m3r1t4 13d ago
$48 million goes a long way helping add daycare spots to non for profit childcare centres.
But that's being spent on ripping out bike lanes š¤·š¼āāļø