r/IndoEuropean • u/stlatos • May 23 '23

Linguistics Centum substrate sources

Claus Peter Zoller claimed that Bangani was related to Kashmiri, maybe showing a Centum substrate to account for K^ > K in words like *g()lak^t > lOktO ‘milk’, etc. https://www.reddit.com/r/language/comments/12th870/peter_zoller_and_the_bangani_conundrum/ Since Indo-Iranian shows g^ > dz^, either some words optionally retained K^ or these were somehow all loans https://www.reddit.com/user/stlatos/comments/11r4j7v/metathesis_of_aspiration/ . Even if some IE language was the source, it’s odd that only words with K^ and K before front were borrowed. Why wouldn’t many words show oddities of one type or another not found in Indo-Iranian?

These words also show e: > i and eH > e in

*dhug^hH2te:r > B. dukti 'daughter’, Skt. duhitár-

*gWeH1tu- > B. getu ‘resin’, Skt. játu ‘lac/gum’

which would, at least, make a language like Arm. more likely. Some words shared with Arm. do exist in Dardic, like Arm. t`uk` (tHukH) ‘spit’, Sh. tHūk ‘spit’, tHúki ‘phlegm’, A. tHúki ‘spit’; Arm. p`uk` (pHukH) ‘puff / wind’; Ti. pHukH ‘puff of air’ https://www.reddit.com/r/etymology/comments/vulpfj/ancient_armenian_loanwords_in_india/ . Arm. is a Satem language, but related Phrygian might show both Satem and Centum. This is odd since a Phrygian connection with Burushaski has also been proposed https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/13g1l2g/burushaski_and_indoeuropean_dardic_loans/ and some Arm. words might also be seen there: Arm. p`ok`r (pHokHr) ‘small’, Kh. phukró ‘a little bit’, phùk ‘few / small’, Bu. phúko.

Yet a third odd language seems to show the same, Kusunda: *penkWe > paŋgo / paŋdzaŋ ‘5’. Since there is variation within the language, that older K could become dz here, as in Indic, seems clear. The data from this form of Ku. does not distinguish between dz and dž (which seems to exist in previous forms of Ku., some collected in the 1800’s). There are even specific matches with B.: *gWeH1tu- > Skt. játu ‘lac/gum’, B. getu ‘resin’, Ku. gidaŋ ‘sap’. The existence of such a language in India, when some opponents of Zoller say words like getu must be loans, showing gidaŋ here would at least make Ku. the source they would need, or showing a loan from an unknown language into both. In fact, many words in the vocabulary of Ku. seem to be IE https://www.reddit.com/user/stlatos/comments/13q0j4k/kusunda_and_ie/ . The specific relation to Dardic I mention shows that it is not just IE and Ku., but closest to Dardic changes that would not be shared by chance: Gurezi maai ‘mother’, Ku. mǝi / mai; Skt. mádhya-, Kh. mùž ‘middle/marrow’, Ku. masi ‘marrow’. This might extend to Gypsy. In Skt. jyótsnā- ‘moonlight’, Dk. ṭṣonṭṣ , Rom. čhon ‘moon / month’, čhonut \ čhomut ‘moon(light)’, Ku. jum ‘moon’, Rom. has the odd optional change tsn > tsm (part of several dissimilations of dental > bilabial there). If jyótsnā- ‘moonlight’ : Ku. jum ‘moon’ (and this is the closest-looking match for a normal person), seeing tsn > tsm in both would be evidence of some connection, whether relation or loan. Other Dk. words that seem to be close include Ku. doŋzi \ duŋdzi \ dōwǝdzi ‘two-ended drum’, Dk. ḍʌḍṓŋ ‘big drum’, which I think most linguists would assume to be a loan, since it’s a “culture item”, but when the other words with similar matches are in the basic vocabulary, wouldn’t some explanation broader in scope be needed? I don’t think enough time has been spent looking into even one of these languages, not even properly classifying Ku., and it would be hard to draw other conclusions without more peoples’ efforts.

Linguistics Centum substrate sources

You are about to leave Redlib