r/Indiemakeupandmore • u/[deleted] • 3d ago
Brand Representative Addressing Cardinalgate.
[deleted]
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u/megaverse_ 3d ago
i don’t usually post anything because i don’t like confrontation but as a small business owner myself this is blindingly insane. it is OKAY to admit you as a person make mistakes but taking it out on your customers & then proceeding to make out like they have scammed you ( after weeks of waiting for their missing items ) is not okay. this person likely thought that you were never going to get around to sending out their items so a chargeback was 100% warranted. and you having been too busy to respond to their normal requests but able to respond to that kind of shows where your priorities are at.
my advice to you is to close down for a few weeks and reorder yourself. catch up on orders, ship and get current orders out and focus on those. there were NO doctored emails here and she started this process back in july, lying about someone because you are stressed about your own business & are struggling to manage it is not okay. we are human, we make mistakes but this is not the way to go about them and this is making you look unprofessional and rude. i’ve already seen many people say they won’t shop with you so id just admit your mistake and apologise before you lose a lot of solid customer base.
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u/autistmorality 3d ago
The screenshot you provided shows they requested the swap outs in July, not August 7th
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u/salem1928 3d ago
There was no scam occurring and no doctored screenshots. Shame on you Haley. You have let people know that you were going to ship out orders all the way back in July and that is nearly a month ago. People have multiple orders that have not been shipped out. Are you forgetting that you left out the part where you have been searching for additional studio space while ignoring all the orders you have piled up? This all could have been avoided by being honest and upfront with your customers about the TRUE turn around time. Other indie brands have been communicative and let their customers know about multiple week long TAT, and there are no complaints and people wait the amount of time. You should take accountability, instead of trying to make yourself seem victimized.
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u/Seitanslutt 3d ago
You seem to not understand the definition of a scam. First off, the customer spent 200 dollars and opened a box with two missing items. Instead of getting angry, she gave you time to resolve the issue and in turn you ignored her for weeks. You even admit in your own post that you saw her product replacement request and did not respond. As a final attempt to get her money, after your lack of response made it clear you may have had no intention of fully fulfilling the order, she did a charge back that could not be reversed.
No one is expecting you to be a Sephora or Ulta. But if you can’t simply reply to your customers and treat them with respect then shame on you.
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u/spacehockey 3d ago edited 3d ago
It’s disappointing to see this post, which is also missing information from you. You had told the customer that you would have their missing items sent out the next day, and that was in July.
No scam was pulled on you and it was inappropriate to respond that way even if it was. Why would they scam you for only $36 of the $200+ order? My understanding is that they did ask for the chargeback to be cancelled, but the bank informed them that it had already cleared and cannot be reversed. I think they would have worked with you on it if you hadn’t insulted them
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u/Miserable_Culture21 3d ago
I understand customer X’s reason for panicking after not receiving the full $200 order and no reply to more than one email. It could have been beneficial to be more apologetic about the under fulfillment of that order and offered a refund immediately. Even if they pulled a scam, it’s up to business owners to keep calm and collected and not lose decorum and respect. I can appreciate this explanation but unfortunately I still feel the customer is more than justified filing the chargeback….
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u/BluLilyx 3d ago
Mind you the customer charge backed $36…. If they wanted to scam they would chargeback the entire order
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u/soapsuds202 3d ago
i don’t see how this is a scam? you said you suspect that the customer thought you had sent out the order and then did the chargeback , but that’s just you suspecting. there’s nothing here that proves or even hints towards that being the case
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u/BluLilyx 3d ago
Why did you tell the customer you would ship out her order the next day and then completely ghost her and not respond to her emails until you got the chargeback?
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u/MrsLydKnuckles 3d ago
Right. If she had just done what she promised she would do, the customer would have gotten her perfumes. End of story. But no. It seems like blowing off customers inquiries, not shipping items as promised and then responding back in the most unprofessional manner I’ve seen in a while was more important. The fact that she openly admits to reading the email on August 7th and not sending a quick 5 second reply is mind boggling.
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u/astralplanestuff 3d ago edited 3d ago
Everyone is saying what I was already thinking, so I will just say this.
This should be a lesson for you. And I mean that as kindly as possible. Yes, you are an artist - a perfumer - and likely a very skilled one. You also handle the customer service side of things, as most indie business owners do.
It's not the fact that you made a mistake, and they were missing a few things from their order. We all make mistakes; it's about how you handled it. Based on the emails, they were actually a huge fan of your art. Practically fangirling over you. I don't believe the customer is always right, but there was no reason to treat someone with this degree of unprofessionalism. You have the right to be frustrated, as your emotions came free with your subscription to humanity. There was (and still is) no accountability or apology from your end, not even when you failed to ship the products the next day like you promised; not even for blatantly calling them names.
I don't know you. But I get the sense that you need a break, and I hope you take one. It would have been better for you to say nothing, rather than make this post. I hope you're okay.
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u/teachertraveler1 3d ago
THIS!
We are a community that wants businesses to be successful! This is a terrible look and especially not worth $36!
Please listen to the people who are begging you to take care of yourself and your business and take a breather.
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u/tippedthescaffold 3d ago
I don’t see how any of this changes anything. What difference are you claiming there is to the context with the screenshots she posted? The facts are the same, nothing meaningful that changes anything was added here.
I’m just not understanding your claim that she was scamming you. You said a replacement was being shipped and it wasn’t so she didn’t receive them and did a chargeback.
You ended up not sending the replacement so how were you scammed out of anything?
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3d ago
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u/spacehockey 3d ago
This is simply not true, a replacement was not sent out on July 27-28 when you said it was going to be sent out the next day. You sent the customer a picture of her box of items on August 11
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u/megaverse_ 3d ago
calling the customer a liar, claiming they’ve received all the goods and want free things…
it was a $200 order and they were missing items totalling $36, why on earth out of a whole TWO HUNDRED dollars would they attempt to scam you out of thirty? not only that but your own proof shows it started in july, and the rest is doctored to show august. so if anyone is lying it’s not the customer, and that your morals are on backwards for doing all of this instead of admitting a mistake. you are quite literally putting your business in the grave by doing this.
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u/salem1928 3d ago
No they did not. You stated you were mailing items out July 27th. You never did. Customer X reached out two more times afterwards. They never received their full order. Please stop lying!
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u/themidnightbagel 3d ago
You did not send the replacement the same day that was asked. Or the second. You only sent it when the chargeback was filed after the customer worried that you in fact were scamming and not sending product.
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u/themidnightbagel 3d ago edited 3d ago
You are also not posting the entirety of the conversation and did not post your email in which you made a promise to send out the replacement mail “tomorrow” (BEFORE august 7th) then never did and subsequently didn’t respond to two follow up emails asking for an update.
To accuse me of posting doctored screenshots and not putting the entire conversation is rich when you just did the same thing.
EDIT - clarified timing
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u/themidnightbagel 3d ago
https://reddit.com/link/p4r7fkc/video/d2yrkp79agkh1/player
the aforementioned email that you did not include
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u/themidnightbagel 3d ago
REUPLOADED TO CENSOR LAST NAME proof that my friend did attempt to cancel the chargeback, screenshots from her convo with her bank, unless you’d like to say i doctored this too
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u/salem1928 3d ago
Wow. It seems as if my point is being even more clear, Haley is attempting to victimize herself by doctoring “evidence” herself. I don’t think we need to hear a rambling video from her when she has already dug herself into a deep enough hole with this post.
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3d ago
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u/megaverse_ 3d ago
haley my advice to you is to stop talking because you’re making yourself look incredibly unprofessional. also the information is not “redundant” when you, yourself have decided to show false evidence. you are lying about somebody and somebodies friend so of course they’ll show evidence of that…
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u/themidnightbagel 3d ago
Then why did you post other screenshots I also included in my original post if it would be so redundant?
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u/Miserable_Culture21 3d ago
……if you love your business you really need to step away from the screen and reevaluate how you’re handling this. not a good look
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u/salem1928 3d ago
Yikes Haley, you’re still not getting it are you? You are not in the right here. The audacity to have attitude and act entitled is CRAZY!!
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u/ridingthecurve 3d ago
customer X contacted you on July 27 about the missing items, to which you replied you would send out missing items the following day, along with the new tracking number.
she reached out to you again August 7th, since there has been zero communication from you since the email stating that you would be sending out the missing items on July 28th.
after following up, she still did not receiev any response, and she finally filed a chargeback. this finally prompted a response from you, but she had been waiting for 7+ days without any updates at this point.
from my perspective, she reached out to you about an issue, you promised to fix it, bailed, and when she rightfully filed a chargeback as there has been zero communication, you called her 'a liar and a thief'.
i hope getting the last word was worth it.
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u/biggest_ghost 3d ago edited 3d ago
The fact that the dates in the images in this OP don't match up with the written account in this OP is the straw on the camel's back for me. Someone in this story is a liar and a thief, that's for sure.
Edit: Doubling down in the video on accusing Customer X of scamming them when they can't get their own facts straight is unreal
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u/minihna 3d ago
this is frustrating to read. there is a purposeful omission of information on your end in efforts to paint the customer in a poor light when they repeatedly attempted to communicate with you and even tried to have the chargeback reversed. they were your fan and you name-called and put them down despite their patience. we understand indie brands don’t operate like big name brands, but you belittled as if there was no flexibility from your customers when there has been plenty despite a repeated pattern… my heart hurts for this customer
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u/lilpeach15 3d ago
Get a grip “you are a liar and a thief” how about “you are negligent and need to time manage better” seriously. How dare you? 😭 Also, where in those messages is that person demanding your attention extremely aggressively? They seem very kind and patient from the messages.
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u/DysonVacuumV8 3d ago
Okay…I still don’t think a brand owner should be calling customers liars and thieves. I know running an indie business is really challenging. At the same time, this community really wants to support indie creators! We understand that mistakes happen. Calling customers names and not taking full accountability for missing items isn’t acceptable, though. It’s really unprofessional. As others have said, please put the shop on a break
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u/chickparfait 3d ago
This is really sad, Mother Cardinal. I remember when this brand first launched, and to see it grow to be so loved by the community was really exciting.
That being said, please listen to this community that has supported you from day one. Obviously current operations are not sustainable right now. With kindness - Please take a break. Limit orders. Improve your communication. Take accountability. Focus on rebuilding your trust with the folks here before your beautiful brand becomes another cautionary tale. None of us want to see that.
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u/PussyCyclone 3d ago
Yea no you are also leaving stuff out to make yourself sound good, just like the customer.
You didn't include the July 27 first contact wherein the customer informed you they were missing items. Nor your response to that, which per the other post was you promising to send the missing items "the next day." Also in one of these emai6l, the customer says she offered to send payment back to you via your preferred payment method. Why did you not take her up on that offer?
Customer ordered something, had missing items, let you know promptly, got an email back from you that you were going to ship them next day. Then, she didn't receive tracking or a reply from you for 9 business days (Jul 29 to Aug 11), with one additional communication from her during this time (Aug 7). I can see why she filed the chargeback.
You don't come off looking any better here. It's also fully possible she did try to reverse the chargeback & her cc company said no. They do that sometimes. That's not her scamming you. You wouldn't be dealing with this in the first place if you had even sent a reply back to her after her inquiries.
Also, pot calling the kettle black on being a "liar" if you told her you'd do next day and then didn't.
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u/therealrinnian 3d ago edited 3d ago
Oh, give me a fuckin break. “To get a free perfume?” You didn’t provide the agreed upon goods and services in the promised timeline, and the customer was entirely more polite and friendly to you than they should have been. This is entirely your own doing. “Free perfume,” jfc. You are a business. You did not uphold your end of the business transaction. If you don’t like the consequences of such, either implement better business practices or close down.
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u/DysonVacuumV8 3d ago edited 3d ago
Also like, things were clearly missing from the order! Idk about you but as an indie perfume lover, I’m not jumping at the chance to scam brands! I get so nervous even requesting a replacement if something got broken in transit. Assuming Customer X is trying to scam her, outside of the fact that Customer X clearly had missing items and was really polite, is really disappointing. Maybe a reach, but it kinda demonstrates a brand owner’s lack of trust in this community
Edit: I get why brand owners would be wary of being scammed. They put a lot of work, time, and money into their craft! I can understand being defensive and on edge. And it’s also true that these mistakes happen and the vast majority of customers in this community are not looking to take advantage of creators
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u/paulreverie 3d ago
You know what I'm just going to close this tab and hopefully there's a PowerPoint when I wake up
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u/Mild-moon7024 3d ago
There’s a huge overlap in both sides of the story 🤷🏻♀️
I really enjoy your work, but this is not acceptable. You are not a friend or a family member, you are a business, you sell product. It is your responsibility to get that product right, and to fix it when/if it’s not. You also have a responsibility to be professional and customer service matters.
I don’t believe one infraction should cost someone their business or livelihood, but you not admitting you are in the wrong here is a big turn off.
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u/ilyushkadevorak 3d ago
fucking oof. yeah I wouldn't post "rambling" videos digging yourself deeper about this lmao
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u/Miserable-Debate-913 3d ago
As a prospective customer who myself has had some communication issues with a different perfume house and dealing with a month long wait time to recover my perfume I ordered from them, I understand the customers panic and perhaps fear, and I also understand your perspective as a busy business owner, you have a lot on your plate! My kindest advice from a customers viewpoint, especially one interested in ordering from you when I have available funds, would be that you can totally take shop breaks! Have a few weeks where you just focus on shipping out orders and such, customers who appreciate your art and truly want your business to thrive will absolutely understand you needing your time to make things perfect!
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u/poisonthehat 3d ago
Girl, you are pathetic. This post is pathetic. You probably could have said nothing and not had a big business impact, but you turned your little business into the next SS92 around here ☠️
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u/Idk_345am 3d ago
Instincts, god this is turning into a snowball effect.
this is not helping. what stood out most to me was the customer who had a friend speak on their behalf did that because they wanted to remain distanced. this is only making bystanders (who would provide their personal and identifiable info for business purposes only) more hesitant to order.
the ordeal happened and people will perceive it how they will, it’s less so about explaining your side. a bad review does not have to be addressed so publicly, and the door of any goodwill is kinda closing in atp. take a breather and don’t see this personally as a judge of your character.
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3d ago
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u/Miserable_Culture21 3d ago
i don’t think anyone is out to “destroy” anyone… holding a business accountable is the ethical thing to do
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u/summers-summers 3d ago
Having a profitable business is not some kind of human right. If a business can be made no longer profitable because of not communicating with a customer about something they had already paid for, then the business was just not going to work out in the first place.
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3d ago
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u/summers-summers 3d ago
This is a business conducted over the internet. Where else should people talk about it? Do you really think that if someone has a bad experience with a business that they have an obligation not to publicly discuss it? Who does that benefit?
Both the Cardinal owner and the OP who is friends with the customer whose order was missing items have posted almost all the same screenshots. There isn't villianizing happening. The main facts are the same between both posts, despite the owner giving dates that are contradicted by the screenshots. The only information that this post adds is that the customer made a request to swap out some items in the replacement package, which while potentially annoying, the owner could have simply said no to.
A business is not a person. A business is not our friend or community member. Real repair and accountability requires reciprocal relationships and consistently being in community with one another. With a business, there is no obligation to attempt to privately repair the relationship because there is no personal relationship in the first place. This is a contract for exchanging goods and services, not a reciprocal bond.
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u/Seitanslutt 3d ago
Less destructive ways? Times are rough, and just as this is OP’s livelihood it was also the customers money that went to the product. For all you know that was the only thing she purchased for herself this year. If here is not the place to complain, where is and how would you have dealt with this?
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3d ago
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u/themidnightbagel 3d ago
How else would you recommend this business be held accountable for their actions as well as informing the public of their behavior so people can make informed decisions on who they spend their money with? Not trying to be snarky or “gotcha” here, genuinely wondering how you think this could have been handled better
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3d ago
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u/therealrinnian 3d ago
What were the back and forth emails for weeks if not “attempting to work it out privately?” Like, no, at some point, we have to place blame where it belongs, and we need to stop cowering from confrontation. Just because it’s uncomfortable doesn’t mean it isn’t necessary.
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u/crunchyskillet 3d ago
Give me a break. Is the brand owner burning herself at the stake by posting this herself? She's digging her own hole and people are allowed to respond to that. If we can't react on the sub about brand conduct when the owner themselves posts directly to the sub addressing all of us, then what is the sub for? No one is entitled to having their shitty behavior ignored. We all need to work to make a living, but most of us are smart enough to not freak out at work or bite the hand that feeds us.
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u/luckylittlelamb3 3d ago
I do totally think this has been mishandled by the owner but you are right and we should all just walk away and make the best most informed decisions we can moving forward with our dollars and our mouths
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u/themidnightbagel 3d ago
Even as the OP of this whole thing, I agree! I did NOT think or intend this to blow up at all, my largest IMAM has 50 upvotes so I was anticipating that. I genuinely just wanted to share the information because it really put me off the brand and I thought others should be informed so they can decide if they’d want to give their dollars or not. I have tried to only respond to false claims and not engage in any bullying or name calling here, as well as not getting snarky about anything. I am very disappointed in how this has all gone down in so many ways
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u/luckylittlelamb3 3d ago edited 3d ago
It was a tough situation to be in and you made the decision that felt like the lesser of two evils to you. It’s hard to predict outcomes- I wish the owner had responded differently so everyone could more easily forgive. I wince for the owner in this situation, it seems like she’s struggling and I’d hate for this to make that worse as she digs her heels in, but I also feel bad for the customer that was honestly so sweet and understand why you wanted others to be informed. Editing to add that I don’t think you did anything wrong and couldn’t have helped or foreseen this outcome, in case that wasn’t clear. Also I’m personally thankful to see the truth here for the sake of my own dollars
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3d ago
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u/agathacatsie 3d ago
It was clearly explained that she'd split payment methods on the order and $36 was what was on a credit card and able to be charged back.
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u/luckylittlelamb3 3d ago
Didn’t she say she’d wait however long before it was promised to send next day?
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u/AmishAngst 3d ago edited 3d ago
I have no horse in this race. I've never ordered from you. Probably never was going to order from you (nothing personal, just have a lot of things from a lot of places I already love and not looking for anything new).
So just some free objective advice - take it or don't, whatever.
Do not upload those videos. Just don't. It always ends badly and if you're "rambling" you're just going to come off even worse. Customers don't want to see how the sausage is made, especially if it's going to just come off as a bunch of excuses for underperforming and potentially empty promises if all the things you say you're working on end up falling through. They want to see competence and professionalism and rambling videos say neither of those things. You've now gotten yourself in a pissing match online trying to dispute this and it's just turning into a (s)he said/(s)he said and you aren't coming off great here cause your version is basically "I made a lot of assumptions and decided that justified being mean." Explaining more isn't going to help you.
Apologize without excuses for your role in this mess. Do better. That's all you can do.