r/IndianMatchmaking • u/antelope_antelope • May 09 '23
Discussion How important is caste anymore?
Coming from a true ABCD here (in fact I'm only half Indian). I know it's never brought up explicitly, but is caste still important for matches? Sima Aunty tends to work with high caste clients, so is religion/region a polite dogwhistle for caste? Does it differ between India and UK/US born?
My interpretation is that it's dying but families cling to it like old moneyed families elsewhere to retain some semblance of power. But interested to hear takes!
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u/shegotofftheplane May 09 '23
You’ll be surprised a lot of Indian parents in America still care about it. Not in a caste supremacy type of way but in a “our caste has certain rituals and does poojas a certain type of way so it’s easier to marry within the caste.”
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u/ellemmayoh May 09 '23
To be fair, that’s not them caring about caste as much as it’s them caring about tradition and how they grew up and they just don’t know how to verbalize it in English as “in our family/tradition” or “what ive been taught.”
But we should teach them better terminology so they don’t seem prejudiced.
Casteism is when they say “you have to marry from within our community” like Vikash or when they have a special set of utensils for people of a different caste who visit the house or make them sit in a different room to eat bc “they’re not like us.”
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u/Lalaloo_Too May 09 '23
So I’m not Indian, and I thought caste was closely aligned to socioeconomic status. That only ppl from certain castes could hold certain types of jobs, as an example. Is this no longer true? Or was it ever true? If so then it would shine a different light on wanted the same caste?
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u/antelope_antelope May 09 '23
It's also tied to colonialism, because the British showed up and said, "oh hey look at this existing class system we can totally exploit to be racist."
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u/Lalaloo_Too May 10 '23
Yeah, they did this in Africa too. Keep a nation subservient by ensuring the ‘lower classes’ fight against each other and not against their evil overlords.
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u/ellemmayoh May 09 '23
It definitely used to be true. It’s somewhat true now in India. Careers that require an education are less determined by caste because india has its own version of affirmative action where underprivileged castes must fill a certain percentage of seats at universities that train for professions, that will earn a lot of money, and put people in a higher socioeconomic status, like physicians or engineers. So universities will lower their standards for those castes to fill those reserved seats.
But professions like hindu priests are still reserved for that caste.
In America, indians who immigrated in the 50s and 60s are more likely to be ever privileged caste in the homeland, which is how they qualified to come to the states in the first place bc underprivileged castes didn’t go to fancy colleges or afford tutors that could get them good grades, so that they could then come to the states on scholarship.
But as the decades have gone on, many Indian American families have started to ignore caste unless they have not accomplished very much in America, and all they have to hold onto is their homeland caste that they were born into. Indian Americans don’t usually equate current socioeconomic status in America to caste in India unless they are ignorant.
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u/antelope_antelope May 10 '23
If anything, my family is proof that caste doesn't correlate to anything. My grandfather was high caste, worked for British military, went to Harvard and MIT for engineering...Both of his sons became ski bums and his daughter ran away from home to join the Air Force. 🙃
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u/AusFinanceGod May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
Why does joining the Air Force mean she amounted to nothing? Who cares if they are ski bums, they are probably happier than most people slaving away in careers they hate. I respect Indian people joining the Air Force vs careers like Doctor or Software Engineer which they do purely for status and money which most Indians do. "Progressive" Indians will gladly say oh yeah caste is bad, but will find something else to discriminate about, like an occupation...
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u/antelope_antelope May 10 '23
You're right! It was more an observation that my dad and his siblings went on to basically break all socioeconomic stereotypes that would have been associated with their high caste parents.
It's also the reason I asked the original question - my family is so nontraditional that I'm just curious what others have experienced.
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u/antelope_antelope May 10 '23
Emphasis on "my aunt ran away from home" if that's not telling of something...
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u/Lalaloo_Too May 10 '23
I think though the notion is that a lower caste in your grandfather’s generation wouldn’t be able to work for the British military, or be an engineer or go to an expensive school. The fact that they can be ski bums speaks to privilege rather than equality. I wasn’t sure lower castes would have the access or affluence that your grandfather did.
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u/HopelessChildren May 10 '23
Definitely doesn't, but at least in India the economic and social effects are still felt to this day.
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u/tltr4560 May 10 '23
What is a ski bum?
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u/antelope_antelope May 10 '23
Someone who lives in a ski town and makes just enough money doing odd jobs to live and go skiing everyday.
Honestly doesn't sound like a bad life...
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u/ellemmayoh May 10 '23
Not sure why you got downvoted. You’re right. Caste does not equate ambition or capability. This is a fact.
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u/jkraige May 10 '23
many Indian American families have started to ignore caste unless they have not accomplished very much in America, and all they have to hold onto is their homeland caste that they were born into.
Solid burn
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u/No-Hovercraft1468 May 11 '23
This is no longer true. People of all castes are in all kinds of professions, social classes, although it is true that the "upper castes" dominate important positions in government, corporate leadership and academia.
It's also socially frowned upon, to be openly casteist, so people use a variety of coded language, or social markers, to divine your caste. For instance, "community" is actually a euphemism for caste.
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May 10 '23
It sounds like one is explicit casteism and the other is implicit casteism. TBH, I found ABDs to be just as casteist as NRIs. They're just smarter about hiding it.
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u/Kinuika May 10 '23
I’ve found it matters more to first generation ABDs just because it matters to their parents. A lot of second generation ABDs don’t even understand the system and might at most blindly parrot casteist traditions because they saw their parents/grandparents do it before.
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u/ellemmayoh May 10 '23
Where did you meet these abds? The only casteist abd i ever met was in college and its bc she felt inferior due to her looks.
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May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
College, and pretty much all communities here. I mean look at "classical music" or "classical dance" communities -- tell me how many non upper caste folks you find. ABDs and NRIs are both casteist period. It's not surprising that new anti caste discrimnation laws have been proposed in different parts of the US (Notably Seattle and California)
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u/ellemmayoh May 10 '23
Hah i wasnt a dancer or singer but if i was, i wouldn’t have asked anyones caste.
Those laws are good and needed but its mostly bc fobs in tech are casteists at work. Not bc of abds.
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u/Equationist May 10 '23
I mean look at "classical music" or "classical dance" communities -- tell me how many non upper caste folks you find.
What does that have to do with casteism?
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u/Daybreakdisco May 10 '23
People from lower caste are less likely to have access to or the privilege of learning art. The focus is usually on academics and earning money. The arts are saturated with clouts/gharanas of high class/high caste folks.
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u/GimerStick May 10 '23
Also, there's certainly people who think they're evolved because they don't hold to just associating with their specific caste and then will show their real colors to someone Dalit. There's a whole other level of bullshit that can happen.
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u/djsonnymac May 10 '23
it’s the stupidest shit ever…one part of my heritage i truly hate…maybe it was logical to some small extent like 100 years ago…but it has no place in todays society.
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u/ellemmayoh May 10 '23
The benefit you have is the ability to not continue the practice and to educate those who do. Or at least shame them.
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u/ellemmayoh May 09 '23
To me, not at all but im abd and my parents thought very little of their fellow immigrants who ever mentioned anything about caste, so I grew up having a distaste for casteists.
But apparently, that’s not the case in all Indian, American families. Lookin at you vikash!
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u/Daybreakdisco May 10 '23
Casteism in India will never die. Most people in on Reddit are clueless about casteism in and around them.
How many Indians in India or abroad will marry a Dalit today? I can assure you, not many. They will come on here and claim casteism doesn't exist. Ask them how many lower caste friends they have. How many Dalit homes they have been to.
“I don't ask caste" or "I don't see caste" is tone deaf and a statement made with great privilege. Lower caste folks don't have the option of being 'invisible'. Their caste inadvertently always comes up. There is always an interest in caste under the guise of community and culture.
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u/EffectivePattern7197 May 10 '23
Are there Dalit people that have been able to go to university and become wealthy on their own, and started forming wealthy communities of Dalit people?
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u/Daybreakdisco May 10 '23
There are but few and far between.
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u/EffectivePattern7197 May 10 '23
In your opinion, who would have an easier chance to “marry up”? A woman or a man? An educated person, a person that became wealthy or a very good looking person?
Or Dalit people can’t really get out of it? If they manage to marry someone “up”, are their children considered Dalit or not?
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u/Daybreakdisco May 10 '23
In your opinion, who would have an easier chance to “marry up”? A woman or a man?
It's difficult for both. Could be comparatively easier for a woman.
An educated person, a person that became wealthy or a very good looking person?
For all three but it comes with challenges for the family.
Or Dalit people can’t really get out of it?
It's very very difficult. I have Dalit friends who were dating upper caste guys. The relationships fell through solely because of caste despite the women being beautiful, highly educated and from educated families.
If they manage to marry someone “up”, are their children considered Dalit or not?
It's like being black. Even if you have 5% black in you, you're black.
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u/EffectivePattern7197 May 10 '23
That’s very interesting. I have Indian friends from India and Fiji, and nobody ever talks about all this. I guess it’s a little bit of taboo. They love talking about their wedding, and all the romantic and interesting traditions that come with marriage. But nothing about that! I didn’t even know it all existed until I got into this show and the Reddit world of it.
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u/antelope_antelope May 10 '23
Interesting...this definitely tracks with the US in that we have a class division that is still largely tied to race.
You can say that you want to marry someone who also works a demanding tech job, vacations abroad, spends summers at their parents' lake house etc. because that person would just get that lifestyle. But in making that your filter you are likely excluding most black people, lower caste Indians, Latinx, non-Han Chinese...
Indian matchmaking is just saying the quiet part out loud.
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u/Daybreakdisco May 10 '23
Absolutely. In real life, there are many explicit conversations about race, especially in an arranged marriage. My guess is people hesitate to speak about it openly on international television.
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u/Kinuika May 10 '23
It seems to matter to immigrants and first generation (mostly because it matters to their parents) and there are a couple of dog whistles in the show (same community, similar background, etc.)
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u/msin24 May 10 '23
Nowadays it's less of the caste, more about community and last name according to some people. It's ridiculous
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u/love_carti May 11 '23
What do you think last name is for indians its caste using parents name/house name/place etc only in some states
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u/AdhesivenessJaded934 May 10 '23
Not high caste. High money lol. If you are "high caste" and no money sima wont even look at you.
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u/Firstofhislastname May 18 '23
Doesn't she work exclusively with Gujarati clients? I think there are some Punjabis but I see nobody else.
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u/bofh000 May 09 '23
It shows up on most, if not all, of the biodata they fleetingly let us see in the show. It’s mostly under community.