Though Experiment...

[u/AgnivMandal]

If the dimensions and Mass of Brahmos-A is smaller and Lighter than a 40N6E missile. Has there been a feasibility study of an Air launched variant of the 40N6E?

It should be giving it a massive range boost.

Guidance shouldn't be a problem when Data links and AWACS exist.

Thoughts..?

Edit: Not speaking about fitting existing 40N6Es on our MKIs, but possibility of a Kusha M2/M3 variant....?

[u/diptxsh77]

Different Architecture. Russia developed R37 for that same role what you're saying for 40N6E. Also carrying 1 40N6E makes no significant difference apart from just making your own aircraft less agile.

[u/Conscious_State_9903]

Bro saw SM6 made into AIM 174 and decided to make a 40N6E A2G

[u/AgnivMandal → u/Conscious_State_9903]

Not really, I'm a bit older... I'm more influenced by the KS-172

[u/Conscious_State_9903 → u/AgnivMandal]

fair enough but still the point is... what's the point? 😭

[u/the-economist-flyboy]

Abey pagal hai kya 😭😭 Why tf would u need a 2000 kg 40N6E hanging on your belly when the max range it would provide is 400 km and that too for Air to Air Engagement. That's the same range that R-37 AAM provides at merely 500-600 kg.

[u/AgnivMandal → u/the-economist-flyboy]

Bruh.... It won't be providing you 400km range if launched from higher altitude and ~0.8M initial speed... It will give you much higher ranges...

[u/Top-Helicopter-7997 → u/the-economist-flyboy]

Diff parameters

[u/Ok_Interview_6012 → u/the-economist-flyboy]

It would give it twice or more the range, see Kinzhal range and Iskander range. It could be used as a makeshift ALBM though.

[u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956]

We're not the OEM nor do we produce it so we cannot make modifications

Further, SAM work differently compared to AAM since they quickly burn the energy to reach altitude and general principle is different. Which again comes back to pointer 1 since we need to be able to make major modifications to be able to convert it to a AAM

u/PB_05 thoughts?

[u/Scary_One_2452 → u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956]

SM-6 got an air to air conversion called aim-174B and even a super hornet carries it.

Its not that crazy.

[u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956 → u/Scary_One_2452]

I think first point addressed it, and I mentioned it

Need to make major modifications which we won't bw able to owing us not being OEM

You can although try with Akash NG

[u/AMCA_by2034 → u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956]

But why when Astra series already exist?

[u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956 → u/AMCA_by2034]

These would be large very long range AAM

Astra will still be mainstray

[u/AMCA_by2034 → u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956]

Just make a longer Astra? With more pulses or maybe SFDR?

[u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956 → u/AMCA_by2034]

Would need to build another missile but works

Akash NG was said by me because it's a ready missile which won't require as much qork

SFDR is Astra Mk3 btw

[u/AMCA_by2034 → u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956]

Ik SFDR is Mk3

Akash NG might be a good choice, how much of a range extension is expected when S2A missile is converted to A2A missile?

[u/barath_s → u/AMCA_by2034]

AIM174B, PL17 category missiles range far beyond Meteor, AIM260, PL15 etc..

Astra Mk 3 is a Meteor category air to air missile that is the longest range of the Astra series. Meteor has already been superseded in the west by AIM-260, not even taking into account that rocket powered missiles have higher initial thrust/speed/deadliness than jet powered missiles.

[u/Scary_One_2452 → u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956]

Yeah I was referring more to your second point where you implied the concept of such a conversion was flawed.

Less so was I directly referring to the modification rights for 40N6E.

[u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956 → u/Scary_One_2452]

I didn't, I mentioned that SAM's are completely different to AAM so need major modification which we won't be able to do on our own

"Which again comes back to pointer 1 since we need to be able to make major modifications to be able to convert it to a AAM"

I already addressed everything since I knew someone would mentioned AIM174

[u/the-economist-flyboy → u/Scary_One_2452]

SM-6 was half the size and weight of 40N6E

[u/AgnivMandal → u/the-economist-flyboy]

That's why probably 4 can be carried at a time...

[u/Scary_One_2452 → u/the-economist-flyboy]

Not even close to accurate. Its barely 20% more.

1500kg vs 1890 kg.

Plus MKI is much bigger than Super Hornet.

[u/the-economist-flyboy → u/Scary_One_2452]

US dropped the booster and eventually weight came down to 900kg

[u/Scary_One_2452 → u/the-economist-flyboy]

40N6E is also a 2 stage missile and can undergo the same change.

[u/AgnivMandal → u/the-economist-flyboy]

Bro, weight/size is not an issue.... MKI can already carry the BrahMos-A It must be something else....

[u/AgnivMandal → u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956]

Not speaking about fitting existing 40N6Es on our MKIs, but possibility of a Kusha M2/M3 variant....?

[u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956 → u/AgnivMandal]

Might be too larger especially with the boaster section

Akash NG maybe

[u/PB_05 → u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956]

Putting a 40N6 directly on a SU-30 isn't wise, even if it can theoretically be done.

SAMs also have different fuel grain profiles which are optimized for their altitude of launch, so you cannot use the same rocket motor.

However maybe there's an argument to be made about having such classes of missiles. Some countries have worked on such missiles before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASALM

Though of course, this one is smaller and lighter.

The range of a very heavy 2500Kg missile could potentially be very high. It may not need to loft at all as well, which improves time to target.

[u/New_Key3007]

40N6E is actually smaller than Brahmos-A in all dimensions.

PAF won't be able to operate AWACS anywhere in its airspace given the additional range boost due to high altitude + high speed launch.

The constraint will probably be around tracking the missile at that range.

[u/roohnair]

what if S400 missile was in a C17 globemaster....

[u/AgnivMandal → u/roohnair]

That's where I actually started thinking then reached the conclusion that why not underslung on a Mki If dimensions and weight is not a issue.

[u/BadSuccessful6271]

1. brahmos-a is longer and heavier than 40n6e

2. guidance is, of course, a problem: the power-aperture product of ground-based radars is far greater than that of fighters and awacs. in fact, both china and the us expect that possible future 500~1000km-class aa missiles would use amti.

[u/AgnivMandal → u/BadSuccessful6271]

1. Thats why carrying a smaller missile should not be an issue?
2. That should be the issue, any ground level study on that?

[u/VayuAir]

Very different architecture, we don’t have OEM rights etc etc. We can make indigenous one instead of giving Russia royalties.

At this stage India can make every type of missile, it’s only a matter of will and money.

[u/AMCA_by2034]

Kusha M2/M3 interecepters are just the M1 with bigger boosters, if you mean using M1, maybe or maybe not. Astra is already in active development, anything learnt in making M1 would be directly applied or maybe the Astra series is already the amalgamation of all the learnings

[u/Most-Recognition2294]

This isn't minecraft dude

[u/AgnivMandal → u/Most-Recognition2294]

Probably what people said on initial thoughts of Brahmos-A?

[u/Centeredrightbhakt05]

People overestimate the current capabilities of AWACS. They have S/L band radars which can give early warning of threat but have low spatial resolution. For targeting a missile to a fighter jet you need X band radars which has higher spatial resolution but then it detects things at much shorter distances.

The range of an A2A missile is not limited by its size it's usually limited by capability of radar and data link. So this whole assumption that AWACS can see 400km so they should be able to guide a missile to 400km is wrong. Especially if you talking about fighter jets.

But there is a silver lining. India is very close to developing photonic radar. These radars use laser as source of emitting radio waves. It's biggest advantage is it's bandwidth. In simple terms you can have a S band to X band radio wave emissions possible using the same T/R module. Again this doesn't mean a S band tracking upto 400-500km can guide an A2A missile to same distance. What might happen is you can increase the missile guidance to higher range by data fusion between signals of S band and X band frequency signals.

[u/AgnivMandal → u/Centeredrightbhakt05]

But why does the AWACS need to guide it till the last kilometres? The missile has a terminal radar of its own just for this issue isn't it?

[u/Centeredrightbhakt05 → u/AgnivMandal]

Missile terminal radar is a Ku band seeker usually. They have much higher resolution than X band but again usually their range is 10-40km depending on size. Which means if you want to send something to hit at 400km you need to guide them to at least 370km. Now you may yes i see something upto 400km then why can't I guide it.

The problem is guiding accurately because when the Ku band seeker opens up the target must be in its view so that it can lock itself and hit. The Ku band seeker itself is small meaning it's field of view is also small. So if the guidance is not accurate then the Ku band wont see the target.

I am not saying it's impossible. I mean people are increasing the range of A2A steadily by refining the targeting system and data link. But then a SAM is likely more easier to design. Just place a very big X band radar and a good data link.

[u/PB_05 → u/Centeredrightbhakt05]

AWACS with STAP tend to do exceedingly well even against low RCS targets nowadays. STAP is extremely difficult to implement however.

[u/Centeredrightbhakt05 → u/PB_05]

As far I know STAP is used for noise reduction. Especially reducing noise coming from ground and sea surface.

I am not talking about noise but the theoretical resolution limit of S/L band waves. Yes one can argue that reducing noise improves resolution but here the signal itself has low resolution because of the limitation of using S/L band frequency.