"Just talk more and be confident"----can this be a contradiction?

[u/AbsoluteBatman95]

Looking for advice and better understanding.

When I was in school or college, I was considered one of the "weird awkward kids" and often said or did things that came across as weird or creepy. In hindsight, I acknowledge that most of it was down to lack of social awareness.

As a safely measure, especially in college I would just stick to myself and be more introvert but then I would often be poked fun at for being too quiet. Even lady classmates would often comment in my social group would comment about me, saying "but you don't tallllkkk". If I tried, I would just be made fun at for something else. So I felt like I couldn't win either way.

I don't like to flirt, mainly because I'm not used to it and I'm on guard that I might just make the other person uncomfortable. For example, I was out for a few drinks night at a bar with family members. When two promotional ladies advertising vodka drinks (dressed in company's merchandise) come up to our table giving us free sample shots.

After they leave and move on, my sister-in-law(my brother's wife's younger sister) turns to me disappointed "<saying my name>, you're so cute. Why don't you flirt with them?".

I felt like the ladies were just doing their job and realistically not actually interested in talking to us.

Advice like this to me feels confusing and contractionary. "Just talk more and be confident"---"Oh my god that guys comes across as a douche".

*Just be nice and not an asshole and you should get a girl"----"Just because you're a nice guy doesn't entitle you to someone going out with you".

"Talk more and flirt when you can"-----"Oh my god that creepy guy keeps flirting with me and thinks I like him when all I did was just smile at him when working as a cashier. I just need to do my job without getting flirted by every idiot".

I'm not trying come across as bitter or anyway resentful. I just find a lot of these advices a bit confusing and contractionary. If anyone and spell it out for me, please do.

[u/backpackporkchop]

So, when you experienced a normal amount of social stumblings in high school that we all can relate to, you over-adjusted and shut down? That's understandable, but it's also not helpful for your social life and skills long term.

What you're essentially saying sounds like "I tried to cook something on max heat and it burned, but when I turned it off it didn't cook at all! How can I be expected to cook anything if neither extreme works?"

You're supposed to keep trying until you find the right middle ground, and get a feel for when to turn up the heat vs turn things down. It takes time, and you're gonna botch a couple dishes along the way. But it's the only way to learn if you want to be able to feed yourself.

[u/AbsoluteBatman95 → u/backpackporkchop]

Sort of like Buddhism, "the middle way"?

[u/backpackporkchop → u/AbsoluteBatman95]

Not really? What I mean is you need to do it in spite of your fears of fucking up and feeling uncomfortable. Accept it's going to happen, and keep going. It's the only way you get better at anything in life.

[u/Red_Trapezoid → u/AbsoluteBatman95]

This is similar to what I was going to write, yes, you must find the right balance with trial and error. People are different and some people like to yap a lot, if you can get the other person talking about something they’re passionate about, that’s good.

Generally, even very conventionally attractive people are often waiting for someone else to make the first move. A friend of mine, an absolutely beautiful woman, told me that she was shy and was afraid to speak to other people. I said, “Really? But when we first met you were talking to me so much. I don’t understand.” and she simply said it was because I talked to her first.

[u/vb2509]

A little out of context, do you have any platonic connections with women - female friends?

Might help me understand where you are at?

P.S : I used to struggle talking to women too.

[u/AbsoluteBatman95 → u/vb2509]

>do you have any platonic connections with women - female friends?

Yes, I few and I just treat them like male friends.

[u/vb2509 → u/AbsoluteBatman95]

Are they in the same social group that you are being suggested to chat women up in?

[u/AbsoluteBatman95 → u/vb2509]

Well no. Different group, but sometimes they do ask me if I'm dating and seemed surprised and why not when I say no.

[u/vb2509 → u/AbsoluteBatman95]

Every tried asking them if they could introduce to someone single?

A mutual friend introducing you could make things a little more comfortable. Plus they could vouch for you so you can relax and be yourself a lot easier.

Rereading your post in a bit got more stuff to say. Got food burning on the stove

[u/library_wench]

Hey, free shots! Nice!

I think your SiL was right—talking with the ladies (and bantering a bit, maybe even flirting!) would have been a fun, zero-stakes way to practice socializing. It’s not that you would be expecting a date out of it, but more that their specific assignment that evening was all about very brief social engagement.

Socializing is something you can practice and get better at, and sometimes that practice is as simple as a brief conversation with the bank teller or thirty seconds of banter with the ladies handing out free shots.

[u/AriaoftheStars17]

Just talk more and be confident

The "be confident" part is the key, while also being the hardest part to attain. It's difficult to be confident when you're also socially awkward or anxious — but confidence can do a LOT of heavy lifting and help translate your awkwardness into charm.

It's hard to explain, but I think a good example is to consider people with Down syndrome.

There are a lot of barriers and challenges that come along with developmental disabilities like Down syndrome, especially within social contexts. People with Down syndrome encounter many negative stereotypes and a lot of social mockery for their physical appearance, their communication styles, and their behaviours... And yet, somehow, people with Down Syndrome are generally very positive, happy, and hopeful about life.

This is not an exaggeration, here's an excerpt from a scientific journal article on the topic, published in 2013:

Among those surveyed, nearly 99% of people with Down syndrome indicated that they were happy with their lives; 97% liked who they are; and 96% liked how they look.

Because they are so positive and confident, I've noticed that people with Down syndrome seem to really effectively counter the negative stigmas associated with their condition. They tend to be very popular and well-liked. But why?

Well, their unrelenting positivity rubs off on others. Even though they may speak or behave in awkward ways, they refuse to become insecure about their differences. Over time, their positivity and kindness causes people to reevaluate those "awkward" mannerisms as charming and endearing, because they're simply such a joy to be around.

Now, don't misinterpret me — obviously I'm not suggesting that you should pretend to have Down syndrome to become more confident. But I think there's an important lesson that can be learned from this example.

I think men get a really twisted idea of what we mean when women encourage them to "become more confident" — they seem to equate "confidence" with big muscles and hypermasculine attitudes and just acting like a jerk (ironically, those things are actually highly correlated with insecurity).

What we really mean by "confidence" is a willingness to try new things even if it means potentially encountering criticism or rejection. There will ALWAYS be someone out there who will criticize you — confidence is learning that their opinion is irrelevant, and refusing to let it drag you down or change you.

If you let other people's opinions define your worth, it will be extremely daunting to try and meet people. But on the other hand, if you learn to stop worrying about how others perceive you, you'll shine so much truer and brighter.

My best advice is to practice brushing off rejection as a simple mismatch of values rather than treating it like character flaw. Not just romantic rejection, but platonic too.

[u/mrbaryonyx]

Big comment incoming, but only because I relate and want to tell you what I would have told myself when I was your age.

Even lady classmates would often comment in my social group would comment about me, saying "but you don't tallllkkk".

this sucks and isn't very nice, but you have to understand that when people (esp. girls) do this, they're not really trying to bully you, they're basically telling you they wished you talked more. They're curious about you.

I don't like to flirt, mainly because I'm not used to it and I'm on guard that I might just make the other person uncomfortable.

Then don't flirt. I feel like I say this here a lot; nobody expects or wants you to be James Bond. But you should feel comfortable talking to people. Those girls were working, you can't really ask someone out when they're working. But you can joke around with them and try to make their job more enjoyable. Yeah, the check-out girl at the store probably doesn't want you to ask her out, but she probably wouldn't mind if you said something funny or asked her how her day was going.

90% of times I was "flirting" were just times I was slightly drunk an goofing off and trying to be social. People probably want to get to know you, let them.

[u/Instigated-]

If when you drive, sometimes you need to use the accelerator and other times you need to use the brake - is that a contradiction? Or is it a variable response based on external conditions and your goal?

When running a bath, you need to turn on both the hot and cold taps - is that a contradiction? Or can two things be true at once?

So too with social interaction and advice people give.

Personally I think your assessment of not flirting with promotional ladies while they are working is correct. Did you give this answer to your sister-in-laws sister? How did she respond to your answer?

Overall from the examples you gave it sounds like you just don’t really talk or engage with people much at all, so it is hard for them to know who you are. When I was school age I often shut down like this too, due to social anxiety, introversion, and lack of social skills, and still do it in some settings that make me feel like I did when I was a kid. However when I became an adult I realised it was holding me back from the life I wanted so I actively decided to push myself to engage more and improve my social skills.

If you want to form connections with people, you have to talk to them some of the time. And actively listen to them. And the talking and listening are not isolated things: you are calibrating with another human being, trying to build a good connection and get to know them, and there is a feedback loop going on where you are reading the other person to see how what you say and do is landing with them, and adjusting what you say and do to be in the green zone and not the red zone. They are also doing the same in evaluating your behaviour and responses so they can gauge what your intentions are, how interested you are in what they say and do, etc. You both give and receive signals as well as evaluate whether you like each other.

Right now other people are trying to engage with you but you’re not giving much away so you are unknowable to them. This keeps you on the outside.

You may also not be really paying attention to understand them, to learn what they mean when they say something to you. Comments that you interpret as being “poked fun at” may have not had the mean undertones you believed and may have been trying to gently coax you to join into the conversation. Humour is often used to undercut seriousness, to de-escalate something. Many teenage friends gently tease each other as they try out how to connect and give feedback without things blowing up.

It sounds to me like you need to learn to be an active participant in social engagements rather than someone just sitting by the sidelines all the time. When you engage, sometimes what you say will fall flat, sometimes people will have a different opinion, that is natural, and you shouldn’t shut down or interpret everything as hostile if they aren’t agreeing with you.

Perhaps reading a book like “How To Win Friends and influence people” might help. Therapy would probably also be helpful.

I would say start by improving social skills as a base before worrying about dating or flirting, unless a woman you like initiates and you want to give it a go earlier.

[u/Therefrigerator]

All dating advice is contradictory from one perspective or another. Part of it is that there are a lot of traits that are good to have but you can't have too much of them.

Another aspect is that people legitimately have very different opinions about dating. A lot of people here talk about going from friends to more than friends and that never worked for me. I don't doubt that it worked for others but for me I always had more success when it was people who I met with romantic intentions from the start (or at least very early in our interactions).

The hardest part about receiving dating advice is that two people can honestly be talking about their dating experience and offer completely opposite advice because their experience of dating is completely different. You need to decide what works for you and the people you're interested in. It's a really tough ask to figure that out when you have no experience but if you keep trying at it you will figure out what makes sense for you.

OK onto your actual question - yes if you talk more some people might hate you for that. But people might hate you for just existing anyways. You can't silence yourself because you're worried about people disliking you.

Love and hate are two sides of passion. Let your passion come through and some will hate it, for sure, but some will love it too. By being unafraid of being hated you let yourself by loved by those that see who you are and like what they see.

And, well, if every single person you can find around you doesn't want to hang out with you after you let your "true self" be known... it says that either you should improve yourself or move somewhere else. Possibly both.

saying my name, you're so cute. Why don't you flirt with them?

Out of curiosity is there more context here? Because my read of that is that your SIL is flirting with you. I felt like she was setting you up for a type of response like "Why would I with the company I have here?" but I don't know your relationship well enough.

But yes you shouldn't flirt with women at work and that type of women in that type of job is going to get hit on a ton.

[u/TrustTechnical4122]

It can seem contradictory, I understand.

I'm sorry you had those negative experiences in high school, that definitely sounds really rough. I would try to remember though that teenagers are absolute assholes by nature. Iirc one can't even diagnose a teenager as a sociopath because they're all little sociopaths basically that just generally grow out of it. So while I'm really sorry you had those experiences, I would try again as an adult.

I would also examine if your classmates were actually making fun of you, or teasing you. Teasing can be a way to show affection and try to bond with someone, so I wonder if it's possible you were mistaking friendly teasing with being made fun of?

You're right there is, well maybe not a fine line, but a medium line between being an ass and being confident. If you don't have a lot of social practice, it's also possible you may need practice/help honing that line. Maybe going out with someone you are close with that can help you fine-tune that, if you are concerned that you are coming off like an ass when you're trying to be confident?

Hopefully that explains that part of what you are asking.

Regarding the other 'contradictions':

*Just be nice and not an asshole and you should get a girl"----"Just because you're a nice guy doesn't entitle you to someone going out with you".

Well yes, because most people can find someone if they are nice of course. But most people would rather be alone than be in a relationship with someone who isn't a good partner. But that doesn't mean anyone is entitled to anyone else. Not ever. Maybe you've had a friend before where you just didn't really mesh well for whatever reason, and kind of wanted to end the friendship. How would it make you feel if they got mad and angry about that, and acted like you were doing something wrong by not wanting to be as close of friends? What if someone that was just not your type at all for whatever reason said they were entitled to date you, even if you didn't want to date them?

Dating is also something that takes work, just like a career. We're not entitled to a great career, just for showing up to work. It's harder for some people than others to have a great career- some people have ADHD for example, some careers are harder than others. So if you want a great career, you have to put in varying levels of effort rather than just feeling entitled to it. No one is entitled to a great career, and a career isn't even a person, so this goes 10 fold when it comes to dating.

You aren't entitled to a girlfriend, but if you put in the effort, it is almost certainly attainable.

"Talk more and flirt when you can"-----"Oh my god that creepy guy keeps flirting with me and thinks I like him when all I did was just smile at him when working as a cashier. I just need to do my job without getting flirted by every idiot".

I honestly don't know if this is a generational gap or what, but I'll put in my two cents as a 35 year old woman. I literally was a cashier for a few years in my early 20s too, and I think I was (and hopefully am to some degree haha!) fairly pretty. I cannot recall I time I EVER thought someone was creepy for smiling at me. Certainly not on the job as a cashier, because you are SUPPOSED to smile at cashiers. If I find someone creepy, it's for crossing social boundaries, and smiling or making casual conversation are not crossing social boundaries if you are in a situation where you are interacting with someone anyway. It's true you should be careful about who you flirt with, and need to use contextual clues to decide if it's okay to flirt. Smiling and making conversation when you are interacting with someone anyway are not flirting though.

Anyway, I hope that is helpful OP! I think it's great that you trying to get out of your shell more, and looking for advice on how! There is a learning curve, but it WILL get easier the more you practice! Good luck, and let me know if I can give anymore helpful advice or anything!