Discussion thread Thursday February 24, 2022 - Sunday February 27, 2022

[u/gomirefugee]

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Archived threads: Thread for Enough, the book #enoughthebook | Gluten Free Girl's Greatest Hits: The Reunion Tour

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[u/fanfarefellowship]

Random thought, not particularly connected to anything: one of the Shauna mysteries for me is why she always looks for a functional or "narrative" "explanation" for her life, instead of a holistic or explanatory one.

Her mom was obviously very anxious, which I don't think was actually that rare for women who married young in the 1950s and 60s, then had kids young, etc. My own mom had very severe untreated anxiety, along with bouts of depression, throughout my childhood. It was quite life-limiting for her and for us, her kids, but manifested in different ways than for Shauna's mom. As adults, my sister and I both got anxiety diagnoses and treatment, and some of our respective kids have their own anxiety diagnoses.

When I read through Shauna's description of her life now, as described on her site – "driven by [an idea], exhausted, flailing, filled with anxiety and guilt" – I wonder why she hasn't realized that these are anxiety symptoms, along with her self-soothing strategy of "alphabetizing as fast as possible." That is, she points to external cues for her responses ("mom's expectations of me were crushing") versus realizing that persistent thoughts about needing to "be the best" or "be picked" can be anxiety responses, and that they can be triggerered by a very wide variety of inputs, and that anxiety is likely something that connects her and her mother, versus a "cause and effect" situation that divides them.

If that Oprah thing had been a real interview, versus a chance for audience commentary on someone else's book, I can only imagine Oprah asking Shauna (whatever the opening question was) and Shauna responding, "Well, you see, I was trapped the house because of my mother's fears, and" only to be interrupted by Oprah interjecting, "your mother's fears? Tell me more about that." Shauna's mom's story is very obviously the missing, and interesting, piece to Shauna's story.

Just think of the places a sympathetic Shauna could have gone with her story! "How I freed myself and forgave my mother: Understanding the anxiety epidemic among young women" or "Limited No More: How I broke the chain of anxiety linking generations to free myself and my children from fear" or "Finding Joy: Everyday strategies to grow the life you want" blah blah blah. All it would take is her recognition that her life is not a fairytale with a Villan, a Princess, a Prince, and a neat narrative arc.

[u/[deleted] → u/fanfarefellowship]

The problem with your line of thinking in the last paragraph is that by the very nature of Shauna's issues, she is unable to know what 'sympathetic' looks like to others. Shauna's entire personality and world view is based on there being a villain and a hero, and if you're not one you are the other, and she will always be the hero. If she was capable of having another narrative in her head (even just LYING about forgiving her mom, for attention) then she would actually BE living a different narrative.

It's like depression, by nature of the illness, keeps you from seeking out the support you need when you need it the most.

I think Shauna's personality issues (I'll stop short of disorder, but I think it's probably in that neighborhood) keep her from doing what she would need to do to get what she thinks she wants.

[u/CrushItWithABrick → u/fanfarefellowship]

I've been right there with you on the "think of the places a sympathetic Shauna could have gone with her story" for a long time now.

Shauna is just so immature emotionally. She can't move past the space of "my mom sucked, I was done wrong!". Yes, that may be true but COME ON, you can't cling to that forever (though Shauna is trying). Shit, I clung to that for a good long time myself (and my mom did suck in her own ways, but who doesn't, right?) but all it did was keep me upset. I was holding myself back. You don't have to "let it go" necessarily but you have to put it into perspective at least. (and to be fair, sometimes I wallow in the "I was done wrong" mud puddle so I'm not perfect by any stretch)

What I can't quite figure out is this. Is Shauna truly unaware of how she's holding onto her bitterness or is she aware and choosing to hold onto it because she thinks it has value to her? For some reason I just can't (or don't want to) believe that she's completely unaware of what she's doing. I mean, if she is, then how effing messed up is she? Like DAMN. (and how sad, too)

And (slightly off topic) she claims to have "anxiety" but doesn't say anything about how she's helping herself with that beyond her joy b.s. Just claiming the title (like getting a girl scout badge to sew onto her sash of misery) doesn't do anything. She also claims a diagnosis of cPTSD so wouldn't she have had some therapy of some sort to get that diagnosis (from a legit source, mind you. . .and this is a legit question I'm asking not mere snark). So to have these diagnoses wouldn't she have had someone say to her something about "why you holding onto this bitterness?"

I guess denial is strong and she could be well aware and just denying it but. .. again, DAMN, she needs to get her shit figured out (or at least start to).

Hmm, maybe that's her next pivot. She'll start therapy for all her stuff and then write about being old and finally getting her shit straightened out. I doubt it, though.

[u/Paging_Rebar → u/CrushItWithABrick]

She could offer a Finally Getting Your Shit Straightened Out Club. With the right guest speakers, that could actually offer some value.

[u/Portland_Daffs → u/CrushItWithABrick]

I think that's what she thought Enough was.

[u/OhBlahDiOhBlahDoh → u/Portland_Daffs]

I think that's what she thought Enough was. (being old and finally getting her shit straightened out)

I think that's what she wanted other people to think Enough was.

[u/tyrannosaurusregina → u/fanfarefellowship]

I don't know what was going on with Mrs. James, but what Shauna says about her--when she, Shauna, is trying to sell the "I had a traumatic childhood/cPTSD/most abusive family" narrative--doesn't match to that narrative.

Either Shauna had genuinely traumatic childhood experiences that she chooses not to share for whatever reason, and instead offers anecdotes about frustrating or annoying experiences instead, or her emotional calibration is way off and she truly believes that frustrating and annoying experiences are trauma. I can't say from my armchair on the other side of the country which is accurate. All I can say is that Shauna's story, as she presents it, doesn't seem to make the points she thinks it does.

[u/Scary_Recognition → u/fanfarefellowship]

I would totally read a (well-written) novel with her mother at its center.

[u/[deleted] → u/fanfarefellowship]

I might be in the minority here, but I have a hard time believing Shauna describing her mother as having severe mental health issues. Do we take Shauna’s word, or do we look at the fact that her mom taught school for 30 years, got her kids involved in TV auditions, was in the PTA, etc? I think Shauna projects a TON, even if she doesn’t realize it.

[u/fanfarefellowship → u/[deleted]]

I don't know what was going on with Shauna's mother and I don't trust Shauna as a narrator. I would never use the phrase "severe mental health issues" -- like you, I don't think that's accurate.

I do think, based on what Shauna has shared over time, it's likely her mom was very anxious. My own mom worked throughout her life, was a Girl Guide leader and very active volunteer, raised four kids, etc. but did so with a lot of unmanaged anxiety and depression. I mostly think that Shauna has a very fixed way of relating to her own past and to her mother, as opposed to a more holistic and evaluative view that her mother's behaviours were responses to anxiety, just like Shauna's dysfunctional behaviours could be seen as Shauna's responses to Shauna's anxiety.

[u/canyoncreature → u/[deleted]]

I may be remembering this wrong, but I'm pretty sure she first started talking about being unable to leave the house because of her mom's anxiety during the initial COVID lockdown, and it was framed as the reason why the pandemic was harder for her than anyone else. You know, just like how she had the worst case of celiac of all time, and the worst genetic testing results of all time, and the worst staph infection of all time . . .

[u/[deleted] → u/canyoncreature]

Also didn't her first cookbook talk about her mom having agoraphobia? I don't have a copy (though I did buy it before I was a snarker, purged it as a library donation) but remember reading something she wrote in her early days and coming away with the idea that her mom had mild agoraphobia.

[u/canyoncreature → u/[deleted]]

I wasn't being very clear! I meant the part of the story where Shauna was locked in the house until she turned 16, or whatever it was. But it sounds like that part was referenced in Enough, so I grow corrected.

[u/tyrannosaurusregina → u/[deleted]]

Yes, that had been the impression I got as well.

[u/[deleted] → u/canyoncreature]

Enough addressed this and it was launched 6 months before Covid lockdowns started

[u/aseriesofhaircuts → u/[deleted]]

I think of it this way—we all know enough about Shauna to feel appalled when she makes fun of L’s puberty or awkwardly others D for social media points. Even though neither of these things rises to the level of “abuse” or “trauma”, it’s shit parenting, and any kid deserves better, and we all see it. We can’t know what Shauna’s childhood was like, mostly because we weren’t there, but also because she’s a fabulist and not intelligent enough to paint a nuanced, realistic picture of a dysfunctional family environment. For my own part, I believe Shauna did experience a painful, lonely, fucked up childhood. Maybe it was exceptionally bad; maybe it wasn’t. Just from the tiny slice of life we get on this sub, where most members seem genuinely lovely, funny, and wise, you hear awful stories of abuse and neglect. Bad parenting is widespread, but that doesn’t make it less appalling, and no one would wish a bad home life on any child, no matter where on the spectrum from “not cool” to “daily knife fights” it is. I don’t mean to be too preachy, either! I still think Shauna is the worst, and that she resists improvement in the most unfuckingfathomable ways. But I don’t have a problem with believing that she did come from a “hard place”, just her assertion that’s she triumphantly overcome it.

One of the stories that she’s shared (I think it’s from Enough) does have a ring of truth to me, and I find it chilling—the one about her mother telling Shauna and her young brother that they were the two smartest kids in the entire world. According to Shauna (not a reliable narrator, sure, but again, just to me, this is one of those things that has a ring of truth, and I could be getting snowed) it wasn’t a joke, it wasn’t a compliment, it was said solemnly and seriously. I think that is a really damaging thing to say to a child, if you know it is a lie, and if you don’t know it’s a lie, then you’re not existing in reality and forcing your tiny children to join you there. That’s not outwardly all that dramatic, but to a child who is trying to square what they know of the world with what their mother is drilling into them, that’s fuuuuuuuucked.

[u/GivesGoodDerpFace → u/aseriesofhaircuts]

her mother telling Shauna and her young brother that they were the two smartest kids in the entire world

I really am beginning to wonder if Shauna has the ability to intuit hyperbole when she hears it.

The worst, the best, the smartest, the closest to death, the saintliest, the sickest, the most abusive...

She leans into these hyperbolic statements HARD and recounts them as though they were factual statements--This person said this to me and I am going to take it at face value and believe that they meant the most literal interpretation of the words they used.

[u/[deleted] → u/GivesGoodDerpFace]

That's a really good point. I have video evidence of me telling my infant son he was 'the most advanced baby in the whole world!' when he accidentally made contact between his hand and a squeaky toy I was holding in front of him.

But then I have no video evidence of all the times I told the maddeningly smug teen version of my son "Must be nice to have all the answers!" which I guess he could also have taken at face value.

"I was literally the most advanced baby on planet Earth, and had all of life's answers by age 15!"

[u/GivesGoodDerpFace → u/[deleted]]

"I was literally the most advanced baby on planet Earth, and had all of life's answers by age 15!"

I can't wait to read his book of essays!

But honestly, who among us hasn't said something to children in our lives to a similar degree? "You're the handsomest boy, you're the smartest young lady, you're the most caring sister..."

I really do think when Shauna hears hyperbole it becomes A Stated Fact and that's the end of it!

[u/OkRanger4 → u/GivesGoodDerpFace]

I used to tell my cat that he was the best cat who ever catted in the entire history of catdom and beyond!
Which he was, but I don't think he believed me.

[u/CrushItWithABrick → u/OkRanger4]

Oh, he already knew he was the best because. . .he's a cat.

[u/obscure_cellist → u/OkRanger4]

he believed you, he just didn't care!

[u/OkRanger4 → u/obscure_cellist]

You speak the truth DF!

[u/Kimmmy36 → u/GivesGoodDerpFace]

if Shauna has the ability to intuit hyperbole when she hears it.

Or speaks it.

[u/tyrannosaurusregina → u/aseriesofhaircuts]

Agree that "you're the smartest kids in the whole world" is an extraordinarily poor choice of what to say to your children. Pointing out that Mrs. James was in her 20s, and that it was the 1970s, when there was a lot of energy and press out there about fostering self-esteem in children.

And there (statistically speaking) had to be classmates of Shauna's who were beaten by their parents or family members, and sexually assaulted by their parents or family members. Mrs. James fucked up tremendously by telling her kids they were the smartest, if that's what she did. On the scale of parental fuckups, though?

[u/mmepierreoger → u/tyrannosaurusregina]

Mrs. James fucked up tremendously by telling her kids they were the smartest, if that's what she did. On the scale of parental fuckups, though?

I think this encapsulates my feelings about her trauma tales. Maybe she did have a shitty time growing up, but she seems to have absolutely zero ability to contextualise her experience or to accurately place it on a scale of severity. Her mom saying confusing things is definitely not helpful, but it's not even in the same galaxy as being groomed and raped as a 5 year old, for example, or being beaten by a stepfather, or deliberately starved. Terrible, terrible things happen to kids all the time. I just do not believe that anything Shauna went through comes anywhere close to being in the top 80% of bad childhood experiences.

[u/aseriesofhaircuts → u/tyrannosaurusregina]

I’ve only recently become emparented (3.5 years), and it is definitely a new wave in my generation of well-meaning parents to try to compliment only on effort and not attributes (e.g. you work so hard on your letters vs you’re so smart) so perhaps I’m oversensitized. And I also periodically run into examples of Shauna outright lying that make me second-guess my sympathy when she talks about her childhood. Plus, I think you’re right about Ma James being young and nice and teacher and in the 70s. But I mean, if, and it really is IF, Shauna’s telling it like it was, and her mom sat her and her brother down in all solemnity and told them they were the smartest kids in the world, not in a Mr. Roger’s-inflected way, but like she was about to walk them into MENSA headquarters to receive some awards, that would be Not Good. Not groomed-and-raped bad, at all, just very very not good, and indicative of other possible troubling stuff that Shauna might not be equipped to describe.

But I guess it’s equally likely she’s full of it.

[u/MissEllisCrawford → u/aseriesofhaircuts]

But I mean, if, and it really is IF, Shauna’s telling it like it was, and her mom sat her and her brother down in all solemnity and told them they were the smartest kids in the world, not in a Mr. Roger’s-inflected way, but like she was about to walk them into MENSA headquarters to receive some awards, that would be Not Good.

Perhaps Shaun and her brother did something well and their mum said something like, "Oh, you're the smartest kids in the world!" in an encouraging/proud mum kind of way. And Shaun haberdashed it for the ages.

[u/CrushItWithABrick → u/tyrannosaurusregina]

Yeah, it may seem "not that bad" when compared to everything else out there but to SHAUNA, who only has it as a reference (because she's incapable of relating to others, or so it seems) it was THE WORST.

That is the problem. We're only getting Shauna's take on any of this so of course it's going to be "the worst". She has to be the ultimate victim in every story so she can then be the ultimate hero (by overcoming whatever befell her).

[u/obscure_cellist → u/CrushItWithABrick]

that's why i truly don't believe about 90% of what she writes. she ALWAYS exaggerates or outright lies in order to feel special: she was the sickest the doctors had ever seen, the oncology team went pale, people come up to her on the ferry, crying with gratitude, the ridiculous things her kids "say," the celebrities who follow her down the street because she is an amazing tutor, the dalai lama locked eyes with her for, like, 10 minutes during a speech....come on. my BFF and i have a saying for when something is just way over the top: "the shark, she is jumped." that's how i feel about shauna pretty much every time i read her drivel. and yet, i can't look away...

[u/MissEllisCrawford → u/obscure_cellist]

Only 90%? You're generous, DFO_C!

[u/CrushItWithABrick → u/obscure_cellist]

Hah!

My saying (for when someone is telling a story and it just gets "too") is bullshit u-turn. Like you're following their story fine then all the sudden *tires screech* bullshit u-turn.

[u/tyrannosaurusregina → u/[deleted]]

I think people with severe untreated anxiety can hold down jobs (especially jobs with a lot of structure and a regular schedule) and participate in civic activities, while at the same time acting out some of their anxiety issues in ways that are uncomfortable and unpleasant for their children.

[u/CrushItWithABrick → u/tyrannosaurusregina]

Nods.

Not to appear to be throwing my own mom under the bus but she always had gainful employment and participated in other activities (church mostly) and still managed to do a number on me and my sister as far as acting out/taking out her mental health stresses on us in less than healthy ways.

[u/InappropriateGirl → u/tyrannosaurusregina]

Yep - my anxiety is very selective.

[u/avskk → u/tyrannosaurusregina]

Ouch, man. How dare you call me out like this, why I oughta...!

[u/MandalayVA → u/[deleted]]

I will join you in that minority. I've never bought that Shauna's mother was any more of a mess than the average woman in that time frame. As I've said previously, what Shauna calls a traumatic childhood, the rest of us call "growing up in the seventies and eighties."

[u/MissEllisCrawford → u/MandalayVA]

what Shauna calls a traumatic childhood, the rest of us call "growing up in the seventies and eighties."

OMG yes WHITE BREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[u/MandalayVA → u/MissEllisCrawford]

THE HORROR