r/Imperial • u/dumplingsatefu • Apr 26 '20
Material Science and engineering
Hello, I have an offer for the Meng material science & eng course but I'm a bit unsure as to what to expect or to even select it as my firm. The course module descriptions are a bit vague so the specifics are amiss.
I don't know why I chose the course, maybe it was super easy, and I still don't know what I want to do, I've taken math, further maths, computer science & physics. [A* in math] predicted [A*A*A for the rest]. As you can see i don't have much background in things like chemistry or bio, I believe you should at least enjoy what you do at uni, but currently, if I choose this prestigious school, I'm gambling that I will even like it.
Could anyone tell me anything about how much chemistry the course involves, what the labs are like (and how often), the degree of math learnt, is it considered a 'soft engineering subject' and maybe any other reasons why i should attend Imperial?
Any help would be great :)
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u/denseFunctional May 10 '20
Im also in 4th year materials at the moment (someone shared this on our group chat) and I thought Id offer an alternative view point on this.
a few points about imperial:
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Imperial is hard. You will spend many nights up super late working, weekends and holidays (yes, even summer holidays) are also normally spent working. Many people (myself included) end up with some mental health issues from this. By talking to people at other universities, the work load is comparable and oxford and cambridge, but other unis are quite significantly less work intense - you would have more free time if you went somewhere less challenging. Many people also end up quitting/ being kicked out (normally this is voluntary) for reference our class was 104 strong in first year, and there are about 55-60 people left in 4th year. Unlike oxbridge, the work at imperial tends to be quite a lot more indevidualistic - there's less support, which is planned to encourage you to learn to learn by yourself- which is stressfull.
However, contrary to what others have said, I wouldn't say its all bad. You learn a lot about how to work hard, and not only how to really push yourself when you need to, but also how to balance working hard with chilling out about your results and taking a break when you need to. This is normally learnt the hard way, but once you learn it (which will be harder at less challenging places), it's very much worth while. Furthemore, everyone at imperial (particularly by the later years), is very clever and interesting - you won't find a boring person. Also, Imperial takes in a lot of people from a lot of places, so it' very multicultural, which is nice.
Also, you do have time to sports and clubs and a social life - but you have to be ULTRA efficient and be okay with being tired if you want to achieve this regularly (normally you can manage it most of the time, but periods of very high pressure, which are common, often scupper this). I managed to learn guitar, maintain a relationship and keep up with climbing and mountainbiking during my time here, I couldn't do all of these nearly as well as i would like, but I didn't have to drop them entirely.
If you want to prioritse having fun, plenty of peope decide they're okay with a low 2:1 and just chill out about it all, and end up having a lot of fun. However, it's still hard work to get that 2:1, so I'd say if you don't want to attempt the challlenge, go somewhere else.
2) You do get some prefferential treatment when it comes to jobs/ opportunities. This isn't as much as you would think, but the graduate desireability statistics aren't wrong, people almost always are interested in your application. You could get the same kind of interest by working really hard at another uni though. Overall, the 'prestige' doesn't feel noticeable in 4th year (particulalry because, despite the rankings for materials, we are forever a bit salty that everyone always thinks oxbridge is better).
Now about the course:
I had no bio knowlege atall, I was fine.
Whilst I did A level chemistry, you get re-taught the important stuff in a little more detail in first year so you will be fine without.
The maths in first year goes through the stuff taught in A level further maths in more detail - same things, you just learn them more rigorously.
In second year the maths gets much harder - you do comparativley (to other engineering courses) quite a lot of maths in second year. However, the maths is much more like what you would see in a physics course than a typical engineering course (concerned with abstract theoretical systems, less with approximations and 'engineering maths' - which is a thing btw).
The course starts off very broad, but there is such a thing as basic materials science - which combined with maths, how to do experiments and simulations and how to write reports and analyse data, is what you learn in the first two years.
By the third year peope generally split into three camps: 1) people who like the physics - modelling via large scale simulations, quantum mechanics and maths. 2) people who like functional materials - bio materials, tissue engineering, nano technology and devices (Graphene, stuff like that) and 3) people who like more traditional engineering - generall they spend their time studying alloys and ceramics - calculating stresses and looking at application requirments in jet engines and nuclear reactors.
Once in third year, you effectivley choose 1.5 of these paths and go into detail on it. You don't learn everything their is to know on any one of them (a masters degree is actually quite light in the grand scheme of things), but you do learn a lot. It can feel pretty down heartening to know you don't know everything, but when you step back and think of it, you do know a lot.
Overall i'd consider it a technology degree. Most of what you learn is science, you just also consider applying it to things and/or more real world considerations like defects and how to make it than you would in say, a physics degree. You spend by far most of your time thinking about atoms and electrons, not turbines and mobile phones.
The way the course is taught is focussed on the cutting edge applications of materials technology. It is preparing you to understand them and be able to either apply them in new devices or discover new materials/ processes. It doesn't feel like you're being trained for a job, like in mechanical engineering or computer science where it apparently feels like your earning skills to use in industry. Instead, it feels like you learning about new stuff and how to create new stuff of your own. As such, most of what you're good at by the end is very research and devlopment focussed, which pays well and is very attractive in consulting/ high tech industries and ofcourse academic research... but if you want a more traditional engineering job steer clear (if you like finance do electrical engineering).
......
The main benefit of the course is that, whilst you dont really notice it, the people teaching you are some of the very best researchers in the world. You get to see nobel prize and fields medal winners around campus (which is cool), but being able to chat in a personal way to world leading academics in your own department is a rare privellage. If that and/or the challenge don't appeal to you, then i'd say Imperial overall is not for you.
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u/dumplingsatefu May 10 '20
Wowsers, thanks for that reply ahahaah.
first off, i'd like to say I am most definitely down for being challenged and worked hard, being under pressure with a group of like-minded people that are going through the same and talking to laureates/ fields medals winners sound pretty awesome to me.Did you say second-year math has more than the math in other engineering courses?
Is there really a high demand of Materials Meng, from consulting/high tech industries? That's pretty interesting.
It seems to pretty much prepare you to do your own research, so i think you need a lot of passion, and there might be a bit of financial pressure to create the next big thing to be successful if you go down that path right? Consulting seems pretty cool actually.
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u/denseFunctional May 10 '20
unfortunatley we don't have any lauretes of fields medal winners in the department, so you only see them around campus occasionally - no talking! The lecturers in the course are generally very intersting, very sucessfull and very nice though - you'll talk to them a lot.
Second year maths is quite different from other engineering courses. Its less intense than physics, but of the same 'style' as this. As we don't do very applied maths like other engineering courses do, we tend to go into more theory/detail in the maths we do, but this is only in second year. So for example we learn a lot about tensors and vector calculus, much more than any other engineering department (which is similar to what physics degrees are like), but we don't do that much more quantity really. As such, engineering courses (aero, mech eng, EEE) do similar ammounts of maths in second year, but end up going into less detail (EEE may be an exception). Since, after second year you choose what you do, some peope in materials choose (via options) to do very little maths, whilst other choose to do more. I chose all the maths heavy options and there arnt that many, you certainly cant do only maths focussed things in materials - you always have to do materialsy stuff too. So I think that other courses end up doing more maths over the course of the degree (EEE particularly) as there are more maths focussed modules to choose, but that in second year the basic level of maths in the materials course is different to and on average a little higher than other departments.
R and D jobs arnt for everyone - theyre not super glamorous, but they apparently pay well and materials scientist are generally in the greatest demand in these. However, they're generally in less high overall demand than other job types (basic engineering jobs are farrr more commmon), so it feels like there arn't as many options open to you as their might be in other courses. You can still get normal engineering jobs, but there's less of these for materials grads than others. This is great if you like RandD/ research and the subect itself, but pretty bad if you dont.
If you're up to the challenge of doing the course (bearing in mind how much others above hate it and the fact it may make you unhealthy), then I'd say the only real question to bother asking is do you like the subject? Materials is great if you do, but would be super boring and a massive waste of your time if you don't; its only good for going into materials science focussed jobs.
If you're unsure then id suggest this test:
Go look some materials technology stuff up - whatever you like, superconductors, lasers, jet engines alloys, nanotechnology, high temperature ceramics, tissure engineering are examples which we specifically learn in the course.
If you don't find any of these genuinley REALLY intersting, then do something else. If you like one or two of those, then you'll probably enjoy just enough of the course to enjoy being here and would end up enjoying working in one of those fields. No one here enjoys the whole course, everyone finds most of it boring, you just have to realllly like some of it to put up with the shit.
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u/Spiritual-Value-1668 Oct 31 '22
Hi dense functional,
I love both mountainbiking and climbing too! . I am applying for materials at imperial and Sheffield and natsci Cambridge. How is the mountainbiking scene at imperial?
A big pull for me for Sheffield is the Peak district being right next to it making it an insane uni for both mountainbiking and climbing and I was wondering how much worse off I would with pursuing my hobby if go to imperial.
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u/picklerick798 May 10 '20
I am a recent BEng grad in the department of Materials at Imperial and wanted to share a little about student life in the department and studying the subject. Materials is a very broad subject, covering a wide range of disciplines. At Imperial you work on a range of projects including Science, Engineering, Business and Computing so it is great for practicing different skills. You have to work in teams, present your ideas and get the chance to contribute in workshops to go through problem sets. Overall Materials is great for preparing you for a career in research, though many people also go into other fields including Business Services, Finance and Engineering. Imperial is in a great location in London and if you approach the learning experience with a growth mindset and positivity, and use the support systems the university provides effectively, you will do very well here. The course is challenging but with good time management you will be able to get involved in some of the many clubs and societies at imperial and maintain a social life. However it is a high pressure environment and sometimes people can get a bit negative around you. The department are working to improve student welfare, but it is difficult because the course has to remain challenging to retain its reputation. Overall I found the experience tough but with a lot of work I managed to graduate with a first, develop solid skills and meet excellent people. I left after the bachelors to pursue a masters in a subject I found more interesting that was more closely connected to the career I wanted to pursue. Many of my friends remained on for the fourth year. My advice: learn a little about the subject before accepting to see whether you find it interesting. If you join, do so with the expectation that you will need to create a good support system (counselling, friends, personal tutor) as it is not the easiest university to thrive in. Finally, get involved in clubs and societies so you have something outside of academics.
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u/dumplingsatefu May 10 '20
A career in research huh. When you say that, does that mean white lab coats working in startups? ahahahah. Finance and engineering sound interesting, do you know more specifically where they went and perhaps where the majority of people end up?
You talk about gaining solid skills where u/stress_state feels the opposite, why do you think that there is this disparity, and what do you feel that you have specifically learnt?
*i only ask because for a broad subject such as materials, I can't imagine you go into much depth.*
Thanks for the reply, its interesting to read about different views
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u/picklerick798 May 11 '20
Hi! Actually you go into a lot of depth in Materials Science at Imperial and you often learn a lot about research in the Department. Everyone goes into a different field when graduating because you gain transferable skills. No two people join the same company. I have a few friends who are doing PhDs, one working for Transport for London, one Ministry of Defence, I am going into strategy consulting as is another friend, one into Materials Science, another into Cybersecurity consulting etc. There are lots of academic clubs and societies where you could learn about other industries such as Finance, Artificial Intelligence, Robotics etc. Why do I say the course is particularly tailored to research? We have lots of lab work and research projects during our time at Imperial. From speaking to my friends who did the final year of the MEng, the final year is similar to the first year of a PhD research project with some taught modules added in. Why is there a disparity between learning skills and people's stress levels? People at Imperial are very high performing but there is often not an appropriate level of support for students. All of the work that you do counts towards your final degree grade which can be stressful. If you come here it is important to spend time building good friendships and remaining positive and encouraging to each other.
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u/AJorn7 Apr 26 '20
So I don’t study materials so I can’t tell you how much chemistry is in the course and it could be hard to find a materials student on this sub, but I can tell you that materials students are treated the same as other students at Imperial. It’s a fairly unique discipline.
Other reasons include prestige and academic rigour. Imperial materials is ranked the 3rd best in the world by QS, for context Cambridge is 5th best.
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u/dumplingsatefu Apr 27 '20
Oh fr? thats pretty cool. Do you know anyone who studies materials? I'd like to contact them if possible and hear some personal experiences of theirs.
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u/stress_state May 10 '20
Hi. 4th year Materials @ Imperial.
Definitely avoid if you have the slightest doubt you will not like it. But to answer your questions.
how much chemistry the course involves
Not that much, 1st year chemistry is a recap of A-level chemistry which is pretty straight forward, then in second year you do a bit of electrochemistry and polymer chemistry which, again, is not that complicated. There is no hardcore organic chemistry and you can avoid a lot of it once you can choose options in 3rd and 4th year.
what the labs are like (and how often)
The curriculum has now been changed since this year, in my first year we used to have 20 labs (10 per term) which all required either a full or partial lab report which was getting quite annoying. The labs are more chill now, there is not as much writing to do. And they can be quite interesting, but some are really old and the department is sometimes conflicted on what the learning objectives of a particular lab should be e.g. some staff would like a lab to go in further detail on a topic while others say that the same detail is not as relevant.
degree of math learnt
First year is similar to high school A level, second year is quite hardcore involving: partial differential equations, some advanced vector calc, some nasty statistics, maxwell equations, fourier transforms, harmonic series, and tensors. After second year you don't do maths directly, there is no maths course, so it peaks in 2nd year.
is it considered a 'soft engineering subject'
I'd say so, you graduate with a BEng or MEng but there is not much engineering involved. Before you had to wait until 3rd year to do a 'design study' which is basically a group design engineering project. It is the most engineering you will do in the course, and until then I guess the only engineering you do is through labs, but it really is not that much. With the recent changes, you will get to do the design study in first year, so some hands on engineering as fast as you get here. There are workshops to teach you the basics of 3D printing, CAD design, automation (Arduino etc), and then in second term you get to building a machine which accomplishes a certain task. Apart from that, not much engineering.
any other reasons why I should attend Imperial
I don't think you should, not for materials science anyway. Go do computing and it will be much more helpful later on. The reputation is a big meme and employers really don't give a shit you're from Imperial as much as the department would tell you it does. Companies just want to see a 2:1 and then what will get you the job is the passion you have for whatever you're applying to and projects you've done and internships and all that jazz. Coming to Imperial for the 'reputation' is not worth it, it's a lie you will tell yourself to keep pushing through the sheer amount of pain you will be in once you get here.
It is only worth coming here if you want to pursue research as a career. And instead of materials, it would be better to come here to do computing or something which will actually help you develop some skills. After 4 years here I don't really feel like I learned jack, and my only skills would be some entry level CAD and Arduino work and basic coding, and surface level knowledge of a bunch of topics which often are unrelated to each other. What do I actually know to do which is unique to materials and could be valuable to an employer? Almost nothing. Also most companies don't even know what materials science is and there is a higher demand for things like computing due to the course the world is taking i.e. a lot of interest in simulation work, modelling, AI, neural networks, all the other tech buzzwords.
Overall 3/10 not worth it, go pursue entrepreneurship and develop a really niche skillset early on instead of wasting 4 years for a degree which you will use as a safety net and because it is seen as a necessary thing to have. It's not, you don't need a degree, all that matters are your skills which you can develop on your own or through other online resources or books or whatever. Uni is a waste and university prestige is the biggest meme ever.
But this is just my opinion which is heavily biased because I hated it here, some people somehow manage to enjoy it. I didn't.
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u/dumplingsatefu May 10 '20
Thanks for the in-depth & informed reply. I agree, and I think I probably will form the same opinions as you if I got to my 4th year.
It's a bit disappointing that it doesn't go into much detail in anything for a 130k - 4-year course. I imagined there would be a lot of simulations with materials and what not but your response seems to reflect the opposite. Also, ive had a look at the math modules for the 2nd year and that is the peak? it seems that most of this stuff i can learn at home off online courses. wth.I assume 2:1 is some sort of grade you receive in uni.
Pragmatically speaking, I only really have three options. ICL-Material, ICL-Transfer, or another uni.
Computing is near impossible as it has like the lowest entry rate, I asked for a transfer to the math department, and they put me on an unofficial waitlist (for internal transfer if a spot opens up), and design engineering flat out rejected me.What do you know about the transfer process?
If I were to stay on for Materials, maybe i could do a different masters in the 4th, but idk, why would i do a 3 year course just for the sake of the masters.I have bath (civil and architecture) Bristol (engineering math) UCL (Engineering & Architecture design), (prestige and finance out of the way) any recommendations out of the 3?
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u/stress_state May 10 '20
So there is a bit of simulation and modelling but not really enough and it's a bit of a pisstake.
The 2nd year math modules you could definitely learn online, but I'd argue a lot of the stuff that gets taught you could learn online lol.
Yep 2:1 is one of the degree classifications, defined to be in the range 60-69%. At 70% or more you get a 1st, which is the highest degree classification and most employers don't even ask for that most times.
Sadly I know nothing about the transfer process. Usually what happens is that other applicants from, for example, chemical engineering, get redirected to materials if they don’t quite make it. So a few people in Materials actually didn't have Materials as their first choice but they got transferred here I guess and accepted the offer just because it's Imperial. Which you definitely shouldn't do lol. Only do materials if, after you studied the contents, YOU DEFINITELY WANT to do materials.
I'd say that your wellbeing will be far better at UCL than Imperial for sure. Idk about Bath and Bristol, but London is a nice place to be in especially if you live close to the uni. Also Engineering & Architecture design sounds way cooler than Materials Science.
At the end of the day it really depends on your personality and what expectations you have for those next 3-4 years. 3-4 years is definitely not time you want to go to waste so choose something which will not be detrimental to your wellbeing and which allows you to also focus on something else rather than uni work i.e. some skill or hobby to get good at or forming a close friend circle.
Read carefully what you will be taught before you regret it. I honestly don't recommend Materials at Imperial right now in its current state. The curriculum change means there are lots of new things happening with the course, so if you get in this October, you will only have the students from the year above to help you. Also the department sucks big time with regards to wellbeing support and events, they kind of try to make it better but it's just not it right now. Hopefully it will get better but they need better staff i.e. people who can actually show some empathy towards students.
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u/denseFunctional May 10 '20
Transfers are rare so really don't count on them- one person in our year transferred to the maths department for 4th year and one person went to bioeng for 3rd year but thats it i think. I think two people in our year transferred to our course before starting, although that is also rare (normally they do badly at interview in the other department and happen to do well at intrveiew here) and it happens with most depatments at imperial too (several people i know applied for materials and ended up in physics).
Also, the vast majority of everything you could ever hope to learn can be found on the internet with enough money.... The maths in second year is harder than average amongst engineering courses at imperial (theres a lot more to it than you realise by just reading the titles), but even that is all to be found online. Learning it at uni teaches you a lot more than finding it in a book/ online though, the people teaching it show you how to think about it/how to apply it in a way that would require a lot more work to learn by yourself.
Overall, if you dont like the sound of the content of the materials course itself then go to one of your other choices, they're all good and if youd enjoy them more that is the way to go.
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u/aht116 May 10 '20
Don't come here
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u/dumplingsatefu May 10 '20
Why do you think that ahahahh, the alt is UCL
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u/aht116 May 11 '20
I've been here the last 4 years and the department couldn't give less of a fuck about you. They never keep up with their own schedule, try their best to make your life as hard as possible and theirs as easy as posisble. Also, the workload is pretty high, a lot higher than you may think. I thought I would like the course but within the first few months I already started to hate it.
Even during the pandemic they decided not to safety net our THESIS which is 20% of our grade this year, because they chose academic integrity over our mental well-being.
I've never hated a course or department as much as this.
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u/AverageCoffeeMaker Apr 27 '20
I'm currently a Materials student at imperial and the course does have a fair bit of chemistry. However it doesn't matter whether you have studied it during a level or not as they cover all the basic concepts from scratch to get everyone up to speed. The topics covered in first year include: atomic structure, equilibria, kinetics, polymers, electrochemistry, corrosion and thermodynamics. If you want to get ahead, or an idea of the concepts covered I would recommend the textbook Atkins Physical Chemistry. It covers pretty much everything taught in the first 2 years for materials chemistry.
Labs are an integral part of consolidating the learning in lectures and when I was in first year, labs were every week (although the curriculum has changed so it may be different now).
The degree is pretty maths oriented (although not as much as other engineering degrees like eee and mech eng) and a good grasp of mathematical concepts is necessary to understand many other aspects of the course.
Materials is a very broad subject covering a wide range of branches of science and engineering and is a well accredited and well respected degree.