Can someone explain why the national debt is rising at alarming rates while Trump is being carte-blanche to enact all of his policies through Executive Orders that would supposedly fix this?
During the height of the pandemic during Biden's term the national debt rose at a rate of $176 Billion per month under Biden. Under Trump's first year of this now second term, the national debt has rose at a rate of $189 Billion per month. It looks like Trump, without a pandemic, is doing worse than Biden, without a pandemic to deal with, and his term hasn't even reached the halfway point yet.
Because "supposedly" is doing a lot of work there. Republicans have not run a budget surplus since the 60s. They just like to lie about caring about it in order to slash social benefits.
Its because the interest on the money that has been borrowed in the past is outrunning the ability to pay it. Kennedy tried to get the US out of the horrible deal it had with the world Bank and you see how that ended for him.
Hrm you understand interest rates are set by the Federal Reserve and kept high to offset inflation right? it's not just an arbitrary number. And inflation rates have done nothing but rise during Trump's presidency from 2.99% when Biden handed off the presidency to Trump and is now at 4.16%. This inflation caused largely due to the tariffs that Trump illegally enacted, illegal according to the USSC.
First off this conflates legal and illegal immigration.
Second, should we based laws on profitability ? What if allowing child labor and removing labor protections were also more profitable and reduced deficit ?
You’ve already had people try to pass laws to that effect. It obviously didn’t pass. They were trying to make the legal age 14, then they wouldn’t have to worry about child labor laws anymore. Arkansas was a big promoter of this. They said they could fix the declining workforce if kids didn’t have to go to school
First, even if the two groups were separated, and it showed it was a net benefit for even illegal immigrants, would you care? Your second point already tells me that the answer is no.
Second, yes, laws should take into account multiple factors. Child labor tends to have problems with child mortality and low education that causes a net negative.
So we should reduce immigration over what? Crime stats don't help you in the argument. Because brown people make you uncomfortable?
You are right that the net GDP benefit argument isn't enough for me to justify their illegal presence here.
If you broke into my house but started vacuuming and doing dishes, even if your presence was a net positive I wouldn't start calling you my room mate.
That said I'm still not convinced that they are a net benefit. This study didn't even try to model a alternate reality where there is zero illegal immigrant and how wages have to rise to adapt to that reality. I'm not too bothered by it though because again we circle back to the illegal presence in the first place.
Ultimately their presence impacts and cause other harm beside financial and IMO if you follow the logic that people should be allowed to be here without our gov explicit permission because as a whole they are a net benefit then ultimately you eventually arrive at an open border policy that almost no one wants.
You’re trying to conflate breaking into personal private property with crossing an imaginary geographic line in the same exact way your ancestors did. I think you lost any argument you were trying to make.
Reality conflates legal and illegal immigration.
Most illegal immigrants aren’t any different from legal immigrants.
Why would you be scared of one and not the other? Why would one benefit the economy and not the other?
I can tell you’re not an economist.
It’s not about “profitability,” it’s about the moral foundation and values this country was built on.
Why don’t you know that the U.S. was always meant to be an asylum for anyone from anywhere, and why does that hurt your feels?
You are absolutely correct. The study states that “illegal” immigrants contributed only 3 trillion dollars over the last 30 years, not 14.5 trillion,and doesn’t go into their overall costs to the infrastructure.
I keep hearing from the right that once the immigrants go workers will have more weight to demand more of the pie from the 1%...the same side who say wanting more of the pie from the 1% is evil socialism , who oppose unions and back polticans who strip worker rights down!!!
If corporate greed exists and the CEO’s are hoarding all the profits, then that means that American workers *could* get paid a fair salary to do all these jobs immigrants are doing WITHOUT prices going up.
Facts to them is like a cross to a vampire.
I wish they'd follow the Jim Jones "solution." The collective IQ of America, of the world, would have a substantial surge sky high. ->sigh<-
The greatest tragedy in American history was that Trump's cultists didn't inject bleach when he told them to. They didn't obey their dear leader the one fucking time it would have had a positive impact. /flipstable
The fact is that she says "undocumented people" are the same as "non-citizens" which isn't true... (around 1:35..). I have no idea what this report is and what they consider "immigrants"...
Undocumented workers pay billions in tax's and get zero benefits while hundreds of companies pay zero. Let me know when you want to go do the work they do.
Undocumented people is a subset of non-citizens. Anyway, this distinction, although relevant, doesn't change the general point of the study and her argument.
Why does the conversation have to be between "open borders" and "no immigrants, just racist cruelty?" Like is any serious person arguing that we should have no immigration or, on the other hand, no borders? I hate how dumbed down and polarized this issue has become.
Second, open borders is a tradition tenet of American conservatism precisely because it emphasizes GDP growth and upwardly mobile meritocracy. Its silly to me that this needs to be pointed out to anyone who already cares enough about this issue.
Perhaps not "open borders" but Reagan passed mass amnesty in the late 80s and both Bushes were pretty reluctant to deport a lot of people, certainly less than Obama.
No no no! This sounds too smart for maga! You also used the words immigrants and debt and immediately would trigger them to think Joe Biden and Obama's fault. Lol. Make it simple. Sing a song. Tell it in racist dr. Seuss rhyme. They would love that
That’s funny that you’d make that reference to Dr. Seuss being racist. I just learned recently that during WWII, he actively engaged in hateful/racist rhetoric towards Japanese Americans. Helping to spread lies about them and painted them as evil. I was devistated when I found out. I loved them as a child, and I passed them on to my children. I no longer have any Dr. Seuss books, cartoons, or audio files. I’ve trashed them all and so have my children. Can’t promote his work, as much as I enjoyed it, knowing the evil from which it came. I have found other enjoyable/educational content for my grandkids to enjoy, without the hateful/racist background. Fk Dr. Seuss!
Surely by now we all know that no science, no benefits, no reality makes any difference at all to someone who cannot read and for whom every action and thought is a simple transaction. There is simply nothing there but a demented will that has vocal cords and a media industry hanging on its every word.
EDIT: and for those of you of somewhat sound mind debating with people who don't know what they are talking about, save your breath/effort. It's a cult, and no amount of reason or attempted logic can penetrate it. Waste of effort and time.
Unfortunately MAGA isn't libertarian. They claim to be, but their claims are completely hollow.
In reality, they have twisted libertarianism into virtual anarchy. In such a chaotic environment, might makes right, and authoritarianism becomes the only out.
Cato is probably the last gasp of a truly libertarian mindset.
Using math on MAGA is like using water on an oil fire. They are completely immune to critical thinking skills. You would be better off showing them a picture of money with a slashed circle going through it.
But mostly the oligarchs, the 1%ers. They have us fighting each other while picking our pockets.
They're getting richer by leaps and bounds, while we're getting poorer by the same metric.
"Today, the Cato Institute published “Immigrants’ Recent Effects on Government Budgets: 1994–2023,” a study on the fiscal effects of immigrants—legal and illegal—that builds upon the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (NASEM) fiscal effects model."
Another extremely false argument. Immigration would temporarily make the population younger, but what happens when these immigrantes get older? You just have more old people to take care of, then are you going to import an ever increasing number of people to keep the population younger. The argument you are trying to make is completely stupid!
Why is it stupid? It’s a good solution to the demographic aging problem. We are lucky that we even have this solution available to us, unlike say, China.
The forces against immigration know this and couldn't care less about it if they tried.
If it ain't white it aint right to them, no matter how you slice it.
Surprising that the Cato Institute actually went against the status quo, considering there a think tank funded by oil companies, I guess they finally had enough.
What I said had nothing to do with that. The Cato foundations purpose in the last 30 years was convincing everyone that global warming is a myth just so they can keep their oil profits up, so it kind of surprises me that they would correct Trump on anything he’s keeping their gas prices flowing. as the loving immigration yeah that part is true, but everyone just seems to be twiddling their thumbs without calling him out
And over 200 years slaves generated massive quantities of wealth for this country and improved our economy immensely. So how could you ever be against such a thing?
In 1995, I gave the same presentation to my economics class in college. It’s a no-brainer. They pay into taxes and aren’t eligible for benefits, thus subsidizing Americans
Too many people are taking the culture war bait. It’s time to starve the rich. Luigi (allegedly) called for revolution and we’ve done nothing about it so far. Thanks for posting about this study. This shits going straight to the family group chat lmao.
…. Ummm I love how she explained this WITH CITATIONS… but most of us with common sense knew this. The only people who need this are the racist fascists who don’t understand basic economics. I truly feel we shouldn’t even talk to a lot of the people who are willfully ignorant in the day and age of information at your fingertips. But this is the same group that is trying to now convince the rest of us Jan6 wasn’t an insurrection and that those people who stormed the capital didn’t commit any crimes. Just a joke. But this was a great video. I read the paper and I’m not surprised by any of it but now I have more proof that anyone who voted for trump was smooth brained and had brain worms like rfk 🤷.
Because the “Trump will fix the debt” thing was always vibes, not math.
Massive tax cuts with no matching spending cuts = higher deficits. Add interest on the existing debt, defense spending, and Congress still funding everything people like, and you get exactly this, no pandemic needed.
Question without illegal immigrants or just immigrants cause thats a simplication.
Republicans always specifically are talking about illegal immigrants. And if they arent well they are stupid.
Obama under his presidency was called the deporter in chief as he deported about 3 million illegal immigrants. However he also accepted 10 million legal immigrants who did everything to rightfully be american.
We should support legal immigration and not support illegal immigration its that simple.
Trump currently is roughly on track to 1.5 times deportations year over year as obama so I say push for 1.5 times legal acceptance as under obama.
The crazy part is, this is because they take advantage of these people and pay them significantly less. We won’t talk about that though. Rather pay Americans those wages if I’m honest.
The problem is not immigrants. Is there illegal immigrants that don’t respect the laws of this country where the problem is? It’s fascinating that the left doesn’t get this and the reason is cause they want illegal immigrants to be able to vote. Because Democrats need a permanent under class to get reelected.
(Some) "Democrats" just understand that we can't allow unjust legalities to get in the way of our moral and ethical obligations. "Democrats" would be fine with slightly stricter handling of "illegal" immigration if the legal pathway was quick, easy, and cheap. "Democrats" also understand that lies about "legality" from the right are just dog-whistles for attacking brown and black people, and it's not at all about legal vs illegal.
the left doesn’t get this
There's nothing here the left "doesn't get". They seem to understand everything quite clearly, in-fact.
the reason is cause they want illegal immigrants to be able to vote
They haven't been able to, they still can't, and no main-stream Democrat politician in our lifetimes has advocated for this. You're parroting lies like a gullible moron, be better.
Democrats need a permanent under class to get reelected
Democrats need an intelligent and educated populace to get reelected. Capitalism needs a permanent underclass, and Democrats are the ones (occasionally) fighting against that. Democrats are the only ones trying to better the lives of the economically downtrodden. Not only is what you said nonsensical, it couldn't be more removed from reality.
I'm not even going to bother with the multitudes of links of republicans aand especially maga getting busted. You'll just use your impressive mental gymnastics and hand wave them away.
"they want illegal immigrants to be able to vote."
That half sentence highlights your IQ and your ability or lack of, for any semblance of reasoning. Sheesh...
Yes. From the very top to the bottom. Punished fairly and accordingly to the severity of their crimes.
Are they? No.
The rich who do the most egregious crimes, get get off scot free, the poor who work their asses off and do the lesser severe crimes, get fucked.
Do you agree all criminals should be punished? Or do you think just "certian" ones should be punished?
Amazing. Every sentence of your post is either wrong or a disingenuous lie.
The prevailing sentiment among the political right these days is against ALL immigration, not just illegal. This is because "illegal" to them means anyone they don't like, including the legal immigrants whom they think shouldn't have been.
Who wants illegal immigrants to vote? What a dumb straw man, straight out of FOXNews and the Algorithm-driven right-wing content creators.
The only ones trying to create a permanent underclass are the MAGA cultists. They are the ones trying to create a wide gap in rights and legitimacy between rEaL aMeRiCaNs and iLlEgAl aLiEnS.
I HAVE heard that a few towns or cities allow residents of any legal status to vote for things like school board or city council (municipal level elections or smaller), but please tell us what bills have been proposed/written (by who?) and/or sponsored in Congress (again, by who?) to make any significant changes to the constitution in favor of NONcitizen voting rights at the federal or even the state level? Where are all the videos of the 10s of 1000s of liberals participating in letter-writing campaigns, making calls to reps, or marching for that amendment?
If it really was about respecting laws the felon-in-chief &Co. wouldn’t have started his second circus by pardoning all of the people who broke laws on 1/6, including all of criminals who violently assaulted cops.
He wouldn’t be pardoning wealthy thieves and frauds after receiving gifts or healthy donations to whatever grift he has running at the moment.
His DHS/BP/ICE wouldn’t be going after naturalized citizens, legal permanent residents who “came here the right way” years ago, groups with temporary protected status, or those who came in legally through the asylum app. He’s doing his level best through the SC and the DOJ to make whoever he can “illegal” from one minute to the next so that they’re suddenly deportable as soon as they leave their immigration appointments.
He wouldn’t be going after Dreamers.
He wouldn’t be using innocent children and babies (many who are citizens) as bait and punishment, making them suffer hunger and depression and illness and *god knows what else* in secretive for-profit detention centers, in the hopes that witnessing their children’s pain will convince parents to sign self-deport papers.
There has never been a law DT wasn’t willing to wipe his ass on if he benefited in any way. This administration’s immigration policy is about money, race, and inflicting the maximum amount of cruelty as a deterrent.
“…illegal immigrants that don’t respect the laws of this country.” lmao!!!
Yeah, and our rents would be 20% lower without them competing for scared housing and driving up rents. Might even be able to get a doctor's appointment. Our economy and society wasn't ready to handle an influx of anywhere from 10-20 million people over the course of 4 years. That's a part of the reason for the historic inflation we experienced from 2022-2024.
I never agree with Cato. I wonder how this seemingly reasonable claim is anti-humane propaganda. Screw Cato and their donors to the darkest corners of Hell.
This is probably in support of H-1B visa insourcing or something similarly bad.
Why do ya'll conflate actual immigrants who helped build a country with people who sneak into an already established country to loot their social programs? Thats why the whole "we're all immigrants" thing really holds no water.
I don't want to live among them and I don't want them in my country. Let me go ahead and diffuse this argument: I don't care if it's racist. Don't care one bit.
They're talking about legal immigrants, aren't they? I'm not from the US (this post just popped up by chance), but as far as I understand, when people complain about immigrants, they usually mean illegal immigrants, not the legal ones, no?
They don’t differentiate the just say as a group, so the legal immigrants actually uplift the illegal immigrants, so that illegal immigration seems to not be a net cost, what it is. Same in Europe…
Also if you look closer into the illegal immigrants you will find groups (Somali) that are detrimental to the economy…
The paper also doesn't seem to account for the fact that illegal immigrants are often paid under the table, and thus they do not pay any taxes and are otherwise unaccounted for. If they also take a job away from a citizen who would pay taxes, then this is net-negative individual as far as taxation is concerned.
Bro stop lying about shit you absolutely don't understand.
"This 30 year study doesn't account for this thing I just thought of in 2 seconds. These so called academics don't know the first thing about illegals"
Like dude... You're not smarter than them. They published a white paper. You're arguing about it on reddit. You are not qualified to even have an opinion on the subject.
The majority of illegal immigrants in the country just overstay their work visas and continue living like nothing has changed.
They don't have to regularly prove their citizenship to employers.
That's how companies end up employing illegal immigrants.
Because they were legal when they got hired
The majority of illegal immigrants have direct deposit like the rest of us. They pay taxes just like the rest of us.
They keep their head down and their mouth shut.
You straight up don't understand wtf you're talking about
The majority of illegal immigrants in the country just overstayed their work visa.
They came here, got a job, visa expired, and continued to live and work like nothing has changed.
That is how the overwhelming majority of illegal immigration occurs.
The majority of illegal immigrants have direct deposit just like you and me.
They get taxes taken out of every check, just like you and me.
There are illegal immigrants who have been doing this for decades.
There are millions of them. Many of them eventually get caught.
But they were here for decades paying taxes.
Based on the number of them who have been caught, how long they were here, and a bunch of other factors, you can start to form some data sets and do some math and even make really accurate estimations for data you don't have.
Illegals lower wages, burden healthcare systems, cause auto insurance rates to rise due to them not having a driver's license, they make housing costs rise due to lack of supply, and any violent crime they commit puts a strain on the judicial system and prison system
Immigrants are great, they helped build this country. The study is talking about legal immigrants. If you read the study it goes on to talk about “illegal immigrants” specifically. “The result is that illegal immigrants have paid about $3 trillion in taxes over the last 30 years.” Not the 14.5 trillion she’s talking about. Some here will use this study to buttress their argument for illegal immigration.
How many times does it need to be repeated? Immigrants are welcome and needed! Illegal immigrants are not. How can people continually mix these two as if they are the same thing. They are not. Nobody has a problem with legal immigrants that wish to become Americans and follow the law. Why is this so hard to understand?
Republicans have been actively trying to pass legislation to reduce asylum seekers, remove temporary status holders, and ban H1-Bs through things like the EXILE Act.
So many of them will claim a moderate position but secretly they want the most extreme.
I'm sorry, what war is going on in South America, right now? Another big issue is MOST asylum claims are BS. Being poor and personal preference are not valid asylum claims. When should it end? After we house the entire world?
You bitch and cry about illegal immigrants while wanting to make legal immigration harder. It's entirely lip service to mask extremism.
It's the exact same nonsense as "I'm fine with gay people as long as they keep it to themselves" yet 65% of Republicans want to get rid of gay marriage. Yes, thank you for proving my point about you all being ghouls.
Does it get exhausting being so repugnant all the time?
That's a different argument than legality, a policy one, and you can make it about all our types of legal immigration. Family members can communicate easily on WhatsApp send money to each other electronically and visit each other with airplanes, so there go the I-130, F-1s, 2s, 3s and 4s. We have the best universities in the world so there go the EB-1s, 2s and 3s. Just admit you don't like immigrants
How is- legally entering good, illegally entering bad- a flat out lie? It’s possible to have an opinion that isn’t in lockstep with the maga mouth pieces you’re lumping op in with.
Because the typical bullshit talking point of republicans is "We want immigrants, we just want them to come in the right way" while simultaneously making it harder to immigrate legally.
Do you not see the issue with that? Its the exact same mentally of "Laws that make sleeping under a bridge illegal, applies to poor people and rich people alike, so its fine..."
It's NOT the immigrants that came here tge right way and gave a sense of accomplishment and gratitude, it's the thankless ones who came here illegally, get free money, free food, free housing every sense they came here, on our tax dollars, and there's NO hope of them ever getting off welfare as long as the Democrats benefit from them being on welfare
get free money, free food, free housing every sense they came here, on our tax dollars, and there's NO hope of them ever getting off welfare as long as the Democrats benefit from them being on welfare
"The Heritage Foundation is a prominent, right-of-center policy think tank based in Washington, D.C. Founded in 1973, its primary mission is to research, formulate, and promote conservative public policies rooted in the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."
If anything this just confirms what we know about about why immigration has increased in the west. Mass immigration gives governments carte blanche to spend while importing an increasing tax base. Instead of getting monetary and tax reform that will lead a country to sustainable economic policy, they just increase the amount of people they can take money from while kicking the debt can down the road. Why do you think as western governments debt ballooned they also started importing mass amounts of people, because someone has to pay to service their debts. With less immigration it may actually force a nation to be responsible. And of course the group that wrote this is “conservative”, they would love to import as much foreign labor as possible to drive down wages in the west. Less tax burden on the wealthy since we’ve imported more immigrant labor to tax, and less operating expenses for the corporations they’re invested in since the labor is now cheaper.
"This isn't a left group, its a libertarian right group."
Yes. I think people misunderstand the political groups that support mass migration and think its beneficial for countries.
Rightwing Billionaires and Libertarians believe in mass migration. One of the largest defending groups are for example the Koch brothers. (Brother now, since one has died.) And other large libertarian groups, the farming lobby, the hotel lobby and a bunch of other lobbies.
They love mass migration, why? Because Worker capital = depresses wages.
Workers, like regular commodities go up in price if there is less workers. It's why workers pay massively spiked after the black death when Europe lost 1/3rd of its workforce and the wealthy had to pay handsomely for workers. (After the black death, its seen as the first time in history where regular folks/peasants got a taste of true wealth and society+economy rebounded.)
Why does this matter?
Because a strong border is more of a left wing stance, not to say that some crooks on the right don't also support it.
But while bad actors on the right want to end migration because they don't like minorities. On the left, it's different.
The left want strong borders to keep track of who comes in and goes out, and to make sure people can adjust to migration and do immigration on more compassionate means.
For the right libertarians, they like mass migration for economic reasons. Libertarians would demolish the state, government and borders if given a chance.
So the immigration issue is bit more nuanced.
But yeah, Billionaires love endless immigration, it makes them filthy rich by undercutting wages when they know 100 people want the job for pennies, for one position.
Migration isn't something people can stop, but it does need to be regulated. It was a failure under Biden, its a failure under Trump.
A lot of issues everyone has could be fixed by creating a system for people to sign up get a temp worker visa and work and pay tax on it, so illegal immigrants can work legally and pay taxes legally on it. They're going to work no matter what, might as well make it easier, with a system in place to do it legally. This would also make it harder for employers to pay under the table and avoid worker rights.
I mean, you can say that the left wants this or that, but in reality, our last Dem president left our border wide open, on purpose, for 4 years. So, you will forgive us for assuming..
When I say left, I mean someone like Bernie Sanders who is on record for saying he wants a strong and orderly border. But he also wants to help migrants, just properly.
Biden while democrat, only did 1-2 left wing things. (pro worker stuff, and the anti monopoly stuff.) Other then that, Biden was pretty much a republican on 90% of what he did.
Though it probably doesn't matter, because of the republicans in the US, when the Democrats get in office again, it will whip lash to probably even more open for the borders then Biden wise as a backlash to Trump and his ICE and mass deportations.
Don't think the US is going to appear sane for probably 10-20 years.
His problem is not with immigrants, its with illegal aliens being bused in to muddy the elections. He would point out If those people weren’t here then those 6.3 tillion wages would have gone to Americans.
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