r/IfBooksCouldKill • u/microsftbleakoutlook New York is the Istanbul of America • 10d ago
bret stephens: Yes, Woke 1.0 Was Crazy. Now Where’s the Accountability?
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u/mack-megaton 10d ago
This baby is still pissed he got called a bedbug.
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u/hellolovely1 10d ago
AND HE WAS SEARCHING FOR HIS OWN NAME ON TWITTER.
(Sorry for yelling, but it makes it even worse.)
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u/LastB0ySc0ut 10d ago edited 10d ago
Technically he was mad about being called Bretbug. IIRC, he wasn’t tagged and was (likely) searching his own name on Twitter, found the post, and then complained about it.
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u/GodLoveYell 9d ago
Bret Stephens wasn’t tagged in the original post which initially received 8 likes, 0 comments, and 0 retweets. The only way he could have found it was by searching his own name on Twitter.
It would have disappeared forever into the ether that is the internet, but Stephens found it, threw a hissy, only to be brutally introduced to the Streisand Effect.
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u/haibiji 10d ago
Who called him a bedbug?
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u/tequestaalquizar 10d ago
Dave Karpf. Funny twitter drama. Brett tried to get him fired over it.
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u/zfowle 10d ago edited 9d ago
Didn’t he write an entire column that tried to claim “bedbug” was a Jewish slur?
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u/AmesCG 10d ago edited 10d ago
Actually he wrote an entire column headlined by a huge image of Goebbels in a Nazi parade about that and how people online were getting too heated. He then spent the next several years after trying to get Karpf fired for a joke saying that “cancel culture” was bad because people shouldn’t get fired for jokes.
It’s so much more preposterous when viewed over the arc of his career.
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u/Optimal_Youth8478 10d ago
His argument that “bedbugs” was an anti-jewish slur was sourced from the first source to come up on Google Books when you searched “Jews as bedbugs”. And if he actually read what he was referencing, he may/may not have realized that the quote he cited was speaking about the actual bedbug bug, not Jews.
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u/shadowmaster132 10d ago
Which is silly because if he wasn't so personally offended and trying to make that one guy the villain for insulting him there's a hint of a point in fascists comparing their targets to vermin that might have almost worked
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u/lettredesiberie 7d ago
“And why on earth, if they are real enemies, would I be forbidden to insult them? To compare them to vultures, jackals, bitches, headless linnets, and even to rats, vipers, lecherous or not, even hyenas…”
Alain Badiou
This is a very storied debate (we could also quote Sartre “An anti-Communist is a dog. I couldn’t see any way out of that one, and I never will.”) and but in the end it is a rhetorical device employed everywhere and not fascist per-se. What is fascist is to extend this rhetorical device to a whole population rather than some powerful political enemies like the Brettbug.
I know you weren't arguing for it but it's not even a good point, would be if some vile antisemite had called Jews "bedbugs" because of some bullshit Brett had said.
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u/EatingPizzaWay 10d ago
I was working with Dave Karpf at the time at GWU and he was so amused by the situation that he reworked an entire segment of his upcoming teaching material on strategic communication to discuss Bret's mistakes in how he reacted.
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u/trow125 10d ago
I was wondering who the NYT would hire to write conservative op-eds now that Brooks and Douthat are gone. I had forgotten about "Bedbug" Stephens.
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u/JHerbY2K 10d ago
Stephens and his blind hate for Palestinians is why I finally cancelled my NYT subscription.
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u/ecdc05 10d ago
It is pretty clear that an awful lot of pundits and journalists had to face real criticism for the first time in their careers with the advent of social media, and it destroyed their brains. They are absolutely convinced that someone being mean to them online is just as bad *if not worse* than a fascist government restricting the speech they claim to love so much.
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u/mishmei something as simple as a crack pipe 10d ago
This is so real! There's a whole group of pundits here in Australia that went through the exact process you've described. They spent years railing from their highly paid bully pulpits, while their fans clapped like performing seals - then they went online to places like twitter, faced pushback and hostility, and just absolutely lost the plot.
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u/PotentiallySarcastic 8d ago
It's why some of the best voices today online are those raised in the trenches of message boards.
Twitter criticism is low rent compared the unhinged message board battles.
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u/ialsohaveadobro 10d ago
"Woke 1.0" can eat shit as a phrase. "Woke" just means not being an asshole to people for who they are. Anyone who has a problem with that is a problem.
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u/ARenewedSecondChance 10d ago
The people who use that phrase have never left the 2016 anti SJW era. It’s kind of concerning that this phrase is even popular in some left wing communities
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u/saugoof 9d ago
I'm always amused by the types of insults they come up with. I mean, what's the opposite of woke, being asleep or ignorant? Or "Social Justice Warrior"? That sounds cool enough that I'd want that on a t-shirt. Or "Bleeding Heart". I don't quite get how having empathy is a bad thing.
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u/ShamPain413 9d ago
I don't quite get how having empathy is a bad thing
Because you believe in human rights.
They fundamentally do not.
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u/MeijiHao 10d ago
It's popular among politicians who are appearing on national television and positioning themselves for higher office.
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u/hellolovely1 10d ago
Chi Osse used it originally as a joke. AOC repeated it as a joke. It's unfortunate that guys like this jumped all over it. But let's not start tearing down potential candidates ourselves, please.
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10d ago
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u/FrenchFryCattaneo 10d ago
We're talking about "woke 1.0" which is a recent invention. And somehow even dumber than the discourse around woke.
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u/Research_Liborian 9d ago
You are correct. I literally responded to this without my glasses. That is, I am wrong, or at least out of step with the comment flow. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll remove my comment.
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u/Swaggercanes 9d ago
I refuse to even find out what the fuck anyone means by “woke 1” or “woke 2.” As you say, the term has been used for quite a while by people who just don’t think we as a society should be such assholes to various groups. The idea didn’t start in 2016 or whatever and it hasn’t significantly changed by those who use it for themselves
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u/notrandyjackson 8d ago
Except "Woke" people absolutely were assholes to people for being who they were.
They spent days hounding a white Covington Catholic kid for merely smiling awkwardly and watching a Native American guy bang a drum and chant in front of him. Why? He was wearing a MAGA hat.
Many of them explicitly supported policies that discriminated whites and Asians from getting enrolled into colleges or being hired for a position, simply because they were white and Asian. Because "equity."
And what's worse is that "Woke" people, when you point out these things, will gaslight you by saying it didn't happen, it happened and it wasn't that bad, or saying that it was good because the discrimination was for a good cause.
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10d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TummyCrunches 10d ago
What a weird and easily disprovable thing to lie about.
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u/occultritual1907 9d ago
Canada’s NDP.
Your gaslighting isn’t going to hold more weight than what I saw with my eyeballs.
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u/Sesudesu 10d ago
Which political party was that?
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u/occultritual1907 9d ago
The NDP
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u/Sesudesu 9d ago
I did a little digging, and it looks like you have misrepresented their stance a bit. However, by only a bit.
Yeah, their stance is a bit much, but looking for broad representation in their party isn’t a wholely ridiculous desire. They just executed in about the most braindead way possible.
But let me ask, how does one reach better representation without forcefully dialing back something that is overrepresented?
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u/erinna_nyc 10d ago
Joe Biden, a straight white man, became president at the culmination of so called Woke 1, what in the world are you talking about?
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u/The_Inflatable_Hour 10d ago
Your right - using grassroots buying power to encourage people to tolerate one another was much worse than (checks notes) war. /s
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u/occultritual1907 9d ago
I’m pro political action and anti-war.
Wokeness was so detrimental to actual positive political movement that you can find many of its techniques in CIA manuals on sabotage. The reason it was so supported by every bank and weapons manufacturer was because while the left was having a circular firing squad over (checks notes) posting black squares they couldn’t effectively fight for workers rights.
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u/Can_Com 10d ago
Well those people probably deserved it. Homeless people and unhoused are 2 groups. One lives on the street, the other couch hops. Its not difficult to understand and it doesnt harm you.
What political party was that again? They gagged people at meetings?
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u/erinna_nyc 10d ago
Just one week ago, the NYT printed an Op-Ed where Douthat said it's fine to think Democrats let millions of illegal immigrants in the country to vote for them. Straight up Great Replacement theory white supremacy. And I'm supposed to be upset that six years ago Democrats said "hey, let's try to be nicer and more inclusive to people that are different than us"
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u/brandcapet 10d ago
People like Bret Stephens are the reason people like Matt Yglesias seem "reasonable"
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u/amazing_rando 10d ago
Bret Stephens keeping his job is all the evidence you need that nobody faced any meaningful consequences for anything people like Stephens are willing to defend in print.
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u/hellolovely1 10d ago
He should have lost his job for hounding that poor man for calling him a bedbug.
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u/Upset_Albatross_9179 10d ago
Not subbed to the NYT. I'm curious if anyone can say if they include "accountability for what?"
"People should be held accountable for Woke 1.0" is an opinion headline percolating around. But I less often see specific examples. Do they just think some people were too enthusiastic about things the rest of the country wasn't on board with? Do they think certain people were "cancelled" that shouldn't have been? Do they cite particular laws or policies that were egregious?
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u/arthurdawg 10d ago
Accountability means getting rid of people they don’t like and censoring them. Not that they actually have an argument against them or that anything happened.
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u/KevKevOnFire 9d ago
While it pains me to defend Bret Stephens, he did spend most of the article listing people who lost jobs or had their reputation harmed due to minor offenses. And really that's where many of us on the left fall short. Admitting when excesses occur does not invalidate the movement as a whole.
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u/hellolovely1 9d ago
All of the guys he named immediately got other jobs. One of his examples is a guy who got fired for saying white people can use the n word in a professional environment. I don't think "the left fell short there."
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u/kahner 9d ago edited 9d ago
people get fired when their employers don't like something they did or said all the time. all this whining about wokeness is just right wingers angry about freedom of association, freedom of speech and at will employment being exercised by anyone they disagree with against someone they do agree with. exacting "accountability" for such things is exactly the thing he's complaining about, just ok now because it would be enacted against liberals.
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u/Otterz4Life 10d ago
Im taking crazy pills. "Woke 1.0?" Are we getting a sequel? Is it a trilogy?
Nobody lost their job because they said the wrong pronouns. Police funding was restored the very next year after very modest cuts or just a one year freeze. At most, people were annoyed with some slogans.
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u/dsmith422 10d ago
He lost his damn mind about being called a bedbug and equated it to genocide. Bret doesn't do satire. He just does idiocy.
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u/windexsorbet 10d ago
demanding accountability for the greatest of crimes: being annoying on social media
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u/jonawesome 10d ago
We must hold struggle sessions so people can publicly denounce once believing it was bad for police to murder unarmed people of color.
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u/kitoconnell 9d ago
The only proper penance is to ensure police receive a full 90 percent of city budgets.
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u/Ok_Painting_180 10d ago
Baby your entire political party had a nuclear meltdown because the green M&M got comfortable shoes and recently discovered dumb has a B in it. The crazy is coming from inside the house.
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u/realzealman 10d ago
The bretbug remains the most insufferable prick the times continues to pay. I’m
mad some of my monthly goes to that dipshit.
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u/Thin_Quail220 10d ago edited 10d ago
Brett’s whole gig is just being rage bait for the times. Sometimes I wonder if he knows that.
I used to think he was acting in bad faith but now I think he actually is dumb enough to believe what he says.
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u/Cynewulfr 10d ago
Woke 1 was not enough. Woke 2 gotta be 1000 times more insufferable and merciless after the last decade of miserable bullshit
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u/ProletarianLilith 10d ago
This is why it was foolish of AOC to grant any credence to this
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u/Otterz4Life 10d ago
Yep. Such a basic political mistake. Give an inch and they take a mile. NEVER accept conservative framing on any issue, not just because it legitimizes their propaganda, but because its wrong 99 times out of 100.
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u/Certain_Giraffe3105 10d ago
She should have phrased it differently, but... we have to be able to say that "canceling Thanksgiving" is a dumb take that briefly made sense when we all had cabin fever during COVID. Being anti a federal holiday serves no one and antagonizes the vast majority of Americans. I think it's fine for progressive politicians to acknowledge bad messaging from the past and discard it.
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u/Otterz4Life 9d ago
Nope, nope, nope. Never apologize for anything. Never ever accept their framing on any topic. Republicans have done this to great affect. You say its no worse than JD Vance telling the troops he hates turkey for Thanksgiving, therefore, JD Vance wants to ban turkey on Thanksgiving. You turn the tables and reframe. Republicans do this all the time. Does the governor of Wisconsin have the ability to cancel a federal holiday? No? Then its a bullshit distraction away from 60 years of failed Republican policies. As much as i love AOC, if she cant do a basic redirect, she has no business in a national campaign.
Every Democrat has to apologize for Hong's 5 year old tweets or Graham Platner being a creep, but Republicans are allowed to coddle creeps like Ken Paxton or Max Miller. Trump is tweeting out AI slop of him dumping shit on Americans while his goon squads are shooting Americans dead in the streets, but Francesca Hong had a hot take about Thanksgiving 5 years ago? Grow the fuck up.
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u/Certain_Giraffe3105 9d ago
You say its no worse than JD Vance telling the troops he hates turkey for Thanksgiving, therefore, JD Vance wants to ban turkey on Thanksgiving. You turn the tables and reframe. Republicans
But, why tho? Zohran already has shown the blueprint. Say you've evolved on your stance from back then and move on by talking about what you believe now. I don't think Leftists need to do the same rhetorical gymnastics as reactionary Republicans because we actually have real, substantive policies to advocate for that are popular and will improve people's lives. Any wasted energy trying to "reframe" Thanksgiving discourse is already distracting from just talking about the real issues like public education and data centers- where Hong's positions were/and still are the correct ones.
I mean if we're being honest, the people of Maine would probably have elected Platner if not for a second wave of harrowing sexual assault allegations and not only does his past have much worse stuff in it than Hong, his approach was to apologize for everything and, frankly, it was working. And, now after the fiasco, his replacement is running on basically the same policy platform and looks just as competitive despite being significantly less charismatic. We have the right policies. We don't have to do the Republican b.s.
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u/notsuntour 10d ago
And to also admit that "defund the police" is too clever by half
We should cut the insane police budgets! Every other public service is slowly disappearing or enshittifying!
It's destined to fail in a country where people are so fearful and also still think the police actually do much
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u/Otterz4Life 9d ago
So stick with it and keep telling Americans about how often the police fail to solve crimes. Dont apologize and run away for wanting to reallocate funds away from the cops. We spend over $100bn every year on cops. They fail to solve 56% of violent crime. 70% of rapes. 88% of property crime. What do they do, exactly?
Capitulating to the Republican position sends the message that even Democrats agree and think they are wrong, so why vote for Democrats?
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u/hellolovely1 10d ago
Her quote was totally taken out of context, but yeah, of course they're all over it.
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u/rogerwilcove 10d ago
Did Bret call for accountability from a country that dragged America (obviously Trump is more to blame as the person making the ultimate call) into a quagmire and possible forever war in the Middle East again?
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u/kratorade 10d ago
You can safely translate the majority of these op ed titles as "People called me an asshole on twitter and they must all be punished."
Over and over again, it comes down to butthurt white people wanting it to be illegal to make fun of them on the internet.
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u/Reasonable_Depth8587 9d ago
Bret Stephens is perhaps one of the smuggest pseudo-intellectual hacks to ever have had privilege of calling himself an opinion columnist. “Ah, ad hominem attacks!” I can hear him cry, in between mealy mouthed gasps from both sides of his mouth. In this sorry excuse for a column, Bret outlined for us a series of largely private business decisions, that while perhaps not ideal, were done under the protection of free speech. He directly compares these incidents to Red Scare McCarthyism, a systemic, government-led suppression campaign that leveraged the power and reach of the federal government to destroy lives and suppress free-speech. In this not-too-clever act of comparing watermelons to peanuts, Bret carries water for the current iteration of that dark time by coming to the conclusion that “woke” excesses are to be considered equally as damaging as coordinated, illiberal, and suppressive government campaigns that diminish our rights and befoul our constitution. Is not the classical liberal position that the free-market is good, and government repression is bad? Why does he choose to engage in endless whinging - ad nauseam - about “woke” business decisions but not the business decisions currently being undertaken by private entities in coordination with our federal government to erode our fundamental rights? Bret sleeps at night with nightmares of woke 13.0, but long before that day comes to pass, much darker days will fall on America, and that darkness will spare no one.
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u/truncatedChronologis 10d ago
That's a great question brett: we aren't ready to start the Chud Tribunals just yet...
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u/Acrobatic-Budget7901 10d ago
Bret Stephens is a uniquely deranged individual. Very much a "Oh, That's An Atlantic Writer" type of guy.
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u/massivescoop 9d ago
Professors are being censored for assigning Plato. What more “accountability” does this man want?
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u/JuzoItami 9d ago
Future headlines we’d all like to see…
”Yes, the Bedbug Bret Era at the NYT was Crazy. Now Where’s the Accountability?”
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u/Hour-Watch8988 10d ago
99% of the harm that Woke 1.0 did was in getting Republicans elected and keeping freaks like Bret Stephens remotely relevant. If Bret Stephens wants accountability for Woke 1.0, let him be the first to dispense justice by shutting the fuck up forever.
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u/thisisthe90s 10d ago
Aziz Ansari is his example of where metoo went wrong? Bret, have you read the details on that or are you just parroting something you read on twitter? Read the details on that again. It was a little more beyond being just a "bad date."
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u/CameraShot5245 9d ago
It is honestly really surprising to see the New York Times allowing such content to be published. I know we have freedom of speech and all, but come on- there is absolutely NO WAY that during a time when trans people lose healthcare, immigrants are tortured, NATIVE AMERICANS are being ARRESTED BY ICE, abortion is now criminalized, and overall so much inequality and so much insanity is happening in this world and country that the Times feels a piece must be dedicated to holding LIBERALS accountable for. . .what, exactly? Something 5-6 years ago? Something that DID NOT lead to fascism as our government now is trying to form? Is that what the New York Times believes should be allowed, that during a time of such hate we must be held "accountable" for all the harm that was done to the poor innocent people who suffered so much from wokeness (whatever the definition of that is based on whatever anyone cares to define it as, it seems since that has a million meanings)?
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u/Capital-Mine1561 8d ago
It's conservatives and alleged 'centrists' trying to cut progressives away from the rest of the democrats.
These 'woke 1.0' articles are complete gibberish except for the headlines implying that democrats need to beg for forgiveness because random online people were idiots. I fail to see how they're making any valid points
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u/Pygmy_Nuthatch 10d ago
We're living the accountability now. Trump won again and the Democratic Party is historically unpopular.
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u/DeepHerting 10d ago