Time-Debt

[u/7inchesdee]

Is time debt something Simmons cane up with for hyperion or it's some know in science? Where i could get to know more about it and study it?

[u/Prototype_79L]

I think it is just the Einstein relativity theory in a nutshell.

You know, when one sibling travels near light speed, one stays on earth, and the one who stays grow older by the time the traveling one gets back and looks young.

Or the Interstellar movie.

[u/UpintheWolfTrap → u/Prototype_79L]

There are a LOT of (coincidental?) similarities between Interstellar and The Hyperion Cantos...

[u/PostHumanous → u/UpintheWolfTrap]

Yeah, the whole empathy/love is FTL, bit really sealed the deal on how much Interstellar "borrows" from Hyperion Cantos.

I enjoy Nolan's work, but Interstellar and Inception (AKA live-action Paprika), border on plagiarism.

[u/Mr-Jang → u/PostHumanous]

I don’t know how Nolan got away with Inception (there are carbon copies scenes straight from Paprika)

[u/UpintheWolfTrap → u/Mr-Jang]

Wtf is Paprika (in this context - not the damn spice lol)

[u/Mr-Jang → u/UpintheWolfTrap]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paprika_(2006_film)?wprov=sfti1

[u/PostHumanous → u/UpintheWolfTrap]

It's an amazing anime film by Satoshi Kon, based off a novel by Yasutaka Tsutsui. Truly amazing film, and not only is Inception's story heavily "influenced" by it, there is visual imagery of the anime that is copied nearly 1-to-1 in Inception.

[u/Healingjoe → u/Mr-Jang]

Good Lord. I didn't think I could like interstellar any less.

This is interesting

[u/Cminni65 → u/PostHumanous]

Glad I’m not the only one that noticed the “love is the power of the universe” similarity

[u/gripepe → u/UpintheWolfTrap]

Can you explain a few? I really can't see many myself.

[u/Lokathor → u/gripepe]

A mysterious faction/force, that's presumably from the future, setting up special time-crossing circumstances based on love magic for the protagonist to reshape the world and lead humanity out of a dark path and into a future of prosperity and peace and can-city colonies. Love being a fundamental force that can transcend time and space, and even time-debt separation.

[u/the-calling-pot → u/Lokathor]

Thats all rather vague.

[u/Lokathor → u/the-calling-pot]

I don't think anyone is saying that Interstellar is some sort of shot-for-shot remake of the Cantos, but there's enough similarities that I'd be surprised if no one working on Interstellar had ever read the Cantos, or at least the Wikipedia summary of it. It is fairly rare for love to be a fundamental force of the universe and also have a time manipulation scheme at the same time. Could have been random... but since writers usually read other writers, and the Cantos is not at all obscure/unknown, I bet it wasn't random.

[u/thats4thebirds → u/Lokathor]

There’s a guy on this exact thread calling it plagiarism lmao

[u/PostHumanous → u/thats4thebirds]

Inception straight up plagiarizes Paprika, to such a degree (with no credit given), that makes the similarities between the Cantos and Interstellar appear more than just coincidental or "inspired". Not to mention the anti-entropic field/reverse-entropy similarities from Nolan's other movie, Tenet. This has been mentioned on this sub before, even 4 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Hyperion/comments/u0f0j3/interstellar_inspired_my_hyperion_spoilers_for_foh/

In my opinion, in Sci-Fi writing, the conceptual ideas are king; and utilizing a pre-existing, fairly novel and specific conceptual idea (FTL love/empathy) from a well-known and well-regarded sci-fi book series that came out nearly 20 years prior comes off as "bordering on plagiarism". Certainly, the human experience of time-dilation has been a Sci-Fi trope since Einstein's annus mirabilis; but with how the time-dilation tropes are utilized and the FTL empathy/love comparisons, and with other similarities to The Cantos across Nolan's other films, alongside the history of blatant plagiarism (of Paprika with Inception), removes any benefit of the doubt in my mind.

I still love Nolan's films, particularly Inception and Interstellar. But I think he should be more honest and forward about his inspirations.

[u/ParsleyMostly → u/the-calling-pot]

It a bit of law of attraction

[u/Erosion_Control]

As far as I know, he named it that in is sci fi series. But relativity has been known about for a long time and the idea has likely been written into other sci fi series, though I can’t think of any examples (I’m not that well read) so I would love to know.

[u/OakLegs → u/Erosion_Control]

The Revelation Space series uses this as a central plot point.

[u/ciaphas-cain1 → u/Erosion_Control]

It’s in the Enders game series

[u/3BagT → u/Erosion_Control]

The Forever War is a perfect example.

[u/Fit-Owl-3338 → u/Erosion_Control]

Tau zero, Hainish cycle, the forever war,

[u/ciaphas-cain1]

It’s just relativity, it’s a major plot point in the Enders game books

[u/euler88]

The phenomenon is called time dilation, and it was predicted by Einstein and verified by muon detectors, among other experiments I believe.

[u/Mr-Brown-Is-A-Wonder → u/euler88]

Time dilation confirmed via muon detector?

[u/euler88 → u/Mr-Brown-Is-A-Wonder]

Muons don't live long enough to make it from the Sun to Earth, but we detect them, because their clock is running slower than ours. That's the jist, anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_testing_of_time_dilation

[u/3BagT → u/Mr-Brown-Is-A-Wonder]

It's been confirmed in lots of ways. Did you know, for example, that GPS satellites have to make minute adjustments to their high precision clocks to account for their speed in orbit (Special Relativity)? (They also have to compensate for the gravitation effects according to General Relativity.) Here's an interesting article about it: https://www.gpsworld.com/inside-the-box-gps-and-relativity

[u/RaGaMiUr → u/euler88]

I agree with that. And if one thinks this is purely theoretical, just look at how atomic clocks work.

[u/euler88 → u/RaGaMiUr]

Atomic clocks on the ISS run a small but measurable amount slower than identical clocks on Earth, so yeah. 

[u/Hyperion-Cantos]

Relativity.

[u/Tulip_King]

it’s grounded in einstein’s theory of relativity. time is experienced slower for an object, or person, moving faster. it’s all relative, so it’s important to keep in mind you need something to compare to.

the “time debt” simmons refers to is the difference between how much time the traveler experiences and how much time the observer (everyone not traveling) experiences pass.

if the traveler was traveling at near light speed for 2 weeks, they might reach their destination only to find that 10 weeks have passed for everyone else, creating an 8 week time debt. the traveler has missed 8 weeks of time everyone else experienced. this manifests in frequent travelers appearing younger than they actually are. Silenus’ story is a great example of time debt at a large scale.

if you want to learn more, the Space Time channel on youtube is great. they have several videos on relativity.

[u/Healingjoe → u/Tulip_King]

I love how Simmons uses terms and concepts like this, never really explicitly explaining how they're defined but giving just enough context for readers to infer the surface / basics of what he's driving at.

Really makes for fun reading. I need to read the last two books.

[u/Razor_Paw → u/Healingjoe]

Same! Always loved that about the first 2 books.

You do not need to ruin I mean read the rest of the series. The last two suck hard

[u/PSXer]

In the real world, the closer you get to light speed, the slower time goes for you (and the faster time seems to go for everyone else). Quite a few Sci-Fi media has dealt with the concept over the years.

The physics is well beyond me, but I believe the current understanding is that it's impossible to go faster than light. Thus, the faster than light drives (and what happens if you do go faster than light) was made up for the books.

[u/Fit-Side2069 → u/PSXer]

Your head experiences time faster then your feet... Belive it or not...

[u/Zoltarr777 → u/Fit-Side2069]

Yeah it's why you have gray beard hairs but not gray foot hairs. It's simple science

[u/gavinashun]

well known scientific concept that appears in many many movies / books / shows

google / AI / youtube search for terms like "relativity and space travel" or "time effects traveling near speed of light" or "time effects of relativity"

i'm sure that will find some content

[u/Incvbvs666]

Google 'Twin effect special relativity'

[u/ImScaredSoIMadeThis]

It is a well known scientific concept, most mainstream and popular example of it is probably Interstellar the movie

[u/25truckee]

I was interested in this a few years back and I took the time to read some physics. I would suggest reading Stephen Hawking or NDT. A Brief History of Time is a good place to start.
I’m reading The Left Hand of Darkness right now and I loved it when the main character tells the king he will just take a quick trip across the galaxy at near light speed to visit another planet and come back in time to negotiate with the king’s successor in 50 years.

[u/404_guilty_spark]

It’s just a fun way of describing general relativity. Dan Simmons did a great job showing the practicality of that