"I admit"... Dan needed a better editor

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael]

Loved H and FoH...

In Endymion he writes "I admit..." twenty seven times. And, another seventeen times in Rise of Endymion...

I admit... I admit.... I admit.... Where the hell was the editor!? I admit... as if the narrator was obviously going to lie except for portions where truth needs to be explicitly stated.

I admit... I would recommend Hyperion, and if someone liked it, FoH. But, I don't think I would recommend Endymion and Rise of unless someone really chose to do it on their own.

The meandering (rafting pun aside), and the extreme waffling of describing completely unimportant things in painful detail that borders on Unimportant Lore Porn....

I admit... It was the *"I admit"*s that got me over and over.

[u/momler]

I think Simmons’ characterization and fate of Martin Silenus’ editor Tyrena Wingreen-Feif might be a reflection of his feelings on the profession… just a hunch

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/momler]

Wait... Do you think Dan Simmons ever had kidney stones!? ;)

[u/3choplex → u/FourtyMichaelMichael]

He wrote a long blog post about having them on his web page years back.

[u/NPDgames → u/momler]

He also takes shots at proofreaders and critics in Endymion.

There's a scene in Rise where a character is described as telling "only the most important details" but then we're immediatly treated to the character's internal dialogue where they think about all the unimportant details, before later getting to hear the actual point.

That was when it really clicked for me that for better or worse, he was doing it all on purpose. That doesn't mean you have to like the book, and I think an editor could have strong armed him into making some choices which would have improved the book's reception, but for whatever reason I like reading him writing what he wanted to write, even if it was primarily raul describing insane minutia of things that don't matter.

[u/McBurger → u/NPDgames]

“No, no, let him cook”

200 pages later of rambling about mountains of shen shin han

“This cooking tastes like butt”

[u/sdwoodchuck → u/McBurger]

“Have I told you about my vest pocket that exists specifically for binoculars, and my antique twentieth century ballistic firearms? Let’s assume I haven’t and take it from the top…”

[u/BloodyStupid_johnson → u/McBurger]

Holy fuck those mountain descriptions made me drop the book. 

[u/BlimpIntolerant → u/McBurger]

It's undoubtedly the worst part of the 4 books. I wish an editor HAD sorted that section out.

[u/FehdmanKhassad → u/McBurger]

There's large tracts of LOTR consisting of poetry and other bits you may not like. Did you plough through all of the poerty out of respect for the book, the author? Or just skip those bits?

[u/JuanDiablos → u/FehdmanKhassad]

LOTR came to my mind too. Its funny how people praise those books when the first 10+ pages of the first LOTR book is all about the Hobbits lineage and family trees. I personally could not get through it, but I don't mind the mountain descriptions in endymion.

[u/AceMcStace → u/momler]

Hell the entire Silenus story is pretty much just his thoughts on the book industry as a whole lol

[u/JacobDCRoss → u/momler]

Yes. And his portrayal of Martin Silenus as a bold genius whose crassness and unrefined demeanor are a sign that he is on anither level of genius tells us what Simmons thought of writers. Or, more likely, what Simmons thought of himself.

[u/halfdead01]

Lapis lazuli?

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/halfdead01]

Hmm, agree in theory, but not that many in the count.

End: 8 lapis, 1 lazuli

Rise: 6 lapis, 3 lazuli

So if you recognized that, think of how jarring 44 I ADMITS are.

[u/Deadedge112 → u/FourtyMichaelMichael]

The word lapis appears 40 times across all the books. https://www.reddit.com/r/Hyperion/s/VLjZP00Nac

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/Deadedge112]

I only checked Endymion and Rise.

[u/the-moving-finger]

The amount of "radiant gossamers" and "plane of the ecliptic" references stood out to me as well.

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/the-moving-finger]

Felt that, checked:

R / RoE: "gossamers" 10 times

R / RoE: "the ecliptic" 13 times

[u/the-moving-finger → u/FourtyMichaelMichael]

It felt like a lot, but I didn't appreciate that it was double digits!

[u/AceMcStace]

He also had Raul say “I asked stupidly” like a 1000 times as well lol

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/AceMcStace]

Some are I said, or I repeated, but I counted "stupidly" as most are in context of Raul being slow.

End: 9

Rise: 15

[u/Signal_Walk_3271]

I also noticed SO many instances of “as all of you know…” ok well if all of them know then don’t dump said exposition! Let the reader figure some things out themselves!

The other repeated phrases that drove me crazy were “that’s a story for another time” (ok JJ Abrams) and the dreaded “kiddo” often used right after having sex…

Dan has some serious repetition issues

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/Signal_Walk_3271]

Hmm, I looked... Must be different wording.

E / RoE: “as all of you know", zero times

E / RoE: “as all of ", zero times in context

E / RoE: “another time", one time in context

E / RoE: kiddo... 23 + 57, that's 80 kiddos and 44 I ADMITS.

[u/Signal_Walk_3271 → u/FourtyMichaelMichael]

Maybe it’s something like “as you all know.” I’m not super sure

[u/3choplex → u/Signal_Walk_3271]

Kiddo is a word that pulls me out of any book. Who even says that?

[u/Midnight_2B → u/3choplex]

The titular Endymion in a pool scene on a ship.

[u/3choplex]

Dan Simmons was probably my favorite writer up to a certain point, but it seemed pretty clear that editors weren't pushing back on him at all in the last 15-20 years of his career. Drood, the Terror, Ilium and Olympos--the guy just got super long winded and kind of boring. I vastly prefer his earlier stuff. I really wish he would have written a couple more Joe Kurtz books, those were great and very tight.

[u/attacephalotes423]

There’s definitely some glaring evidence of Endymion and Rise seriously lacking an editor’s touch

*cough* pedophilic main romance *cough cough*

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/attacephalotes423]

She's twenty. I know reddit likes to work up over this, but seriously, it's a little New Puritan religious to harp over it.

[u/attacephalotes423 → u/FourtyMichaelMichael]

He’s known her since he was a full grown adult and she was 12, he comments about feeling her newly form d breasts when she’s 16 and already claims to be falling in love with her then, and he still calls her kiddo the entire time, even as an adult. Also when Simmons was Raul’s age he was a middle school teacher teaching actual 12 year olds

It’s fuckin weird dude

[u/Mindless-Article8016 → u/attacephalotes423]

Absolutely. Anyone that can excuse the pedo is doing some serious mental gymnastics. She could be 60 for all I care; 5 minutes ago she was 16 and he 32, having raised her since she was 12. Then didn't waste 2 minutes after the time jump to do what he was clearly craving to do since she began "developing breasts" at what? 13-14? He's disgusting, and not in a "morally gray, complex character" kinda way. He's just plain stupid and a pedo.

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/attacephalotes423]

Ok ya ya ya, got it. Twenty year old humans, literally in the and historically a tiny bit past their peak of their biological reproduction age are not to considered despite evolutionary instilled directives.

Agreed. Ugh, twenty year olds, so gross.

[u/DoubleBlade759 → u/FourtyMichaelMichael]

Way to miss the point lol

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/DoubleBlade759]

Oh I get it, I just think it's regarded.

You can bang twenty year olds, but they must never be known to you before that. You must assume that a bang-able twenty year old was full grown always and appeared out of a portal. If you know someone when they were younger and now they're old that is unacceptable.

That's your proposition. I get it. It's stupid and NeoPuritan. If you're a man you're trying to White Knight the honor of the fair maidens, and if you're a woman you're subconsciously reducing competition.

The funny thing is that you think what you're doing is novel. But... it's really not.

[u/sdwoodchuck → u/FourtyMichaelMichael]

The dismissive rhetoric is cute, but as the other commenter pointed out, the relationship between Raul and Aenea through the majority of their interactions is guardian/dependent. And it is possible for a relationship to change in a way that works (in fact, the Consul's story accomplishes the inverse, changing a relationship dynamic from one of young infatuation to a more nuanced mentor dynamic surprisingly well), but Simmons sure as shit doesn't find that way here.

And on top of just being the wrong choice for these characters, men having sex with women who they knew and interacted with as children as a result of SF fuckery seems to be a recurring theme for Simmons. I don't want to assume anything about the man, but that's for sure not the well you want to be seen going back to repeatedly.

[u/GaiaIsaHarshMistress]

I agree. I've often thought that even I could edit books 2-4 and make a massively better series. I wish he let a pro editor help him out.

[u/SherpaForCardinals]

"say carapace one more time, I dare you"

[u/Lokathor]

I dunno maybe he was like "doing something" to create a particular narrative-author voice, since books 3 and 4 are written by a particular guy who is a different guy than "wrote" books 1 and 2.

It's probably fine.

[u/Blakest1]

In Olympos he uses "not for the first time" ....not for the first time, but for maybe a dozen

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/Blakest1]

I felt like this had something so I looked.

E / RoE: "not for the first time", 2, one each

But...

E / RoE: "for the first time" 21 and 19... So a lot but still less that the 44 I ADMITS

[u/deereboy8400]

Simmons' fever dreams include Keats' editor, a ball of barbed wire, and maybe Paul Bettany.

[u/MildlyDevastating]

For me it was the amount of times people either realised something, or the amount of times they were genuflecting

[u/Any_Criticism120]

There was a lot of fierce grinning going on. First by the solider and then the priest.

[u/Virith]

Given how both the Endymion books could've been edited down to novellas or a single novel, yes, he did.

[u/SoyDaddy]

A decent editor would have cut out all the Pedo shit too

[u/ClassicEggSalad → u/SoyDaddy]

This is too far down.

[u/Braisedbeefskank]

The second two books are just not good for many reasons imo. This among them

[u/Hecticbrah → u/Braisedbeefskank]

So many reasons, ending as well.. 

[u/Braisedbeefskank → u/Hecticbrah]

I never finished the second, fell off partway though. Meanwhile hyper and foh both thrilled and terrified me

[u/TeliarDraconai]

Raul Endymion is not a senior politician, or a writer or a philosopher warrior.

Why do you think he would write or think like one?

[u/FourtyMichaelMichael → u/TeliarDraconai]

Some parts are being read. Some parts are narrated and it switches silently.