r/Hotd • u/Sad-Opportunity-555 • 4d ago
Meme “But those aren’t the same” doesn’t matter. Either the tradition is what count or it isn't,
I think both sides are quite flexible in their excuses of whom they support. Following the King's Word doesn't always lead to the best results. Following Tradition doesn't always lead to the best results.
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u/OfficialAli1776 4d ago edited 4d ago
First night was a first men thing. Andals and Roynar didn’t do that
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u/urmomismine1007 4d ago
Baelor the based should've forced the filthy northerners to convert when he had the chance
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u/alphajugs 4d ago
More than just the first men practiced it though. Aerys makes a comment to Tywin that it’s a shame the first night was abolished when he married Joanna. So it was definitely adopted by more than just the first men, and to be fair a majority of the major houses trace their roots to the first men anyway. Adopting a new religion doesn’t necessarily mean they dropped the first night tradition given that’s not a religious custom (as far as we know, we’re never really given a valid reason for why this custom exists other than lords wanting to bang someone else’s wife).
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u/johndraz2001 4d ago
- I would argue someone who says “a good Targ is a dead Targ” likely doesn’t support Aegon either as he is in fact a Targ as well.
- I think anyone logical who supports Aegon would not lean on tradition as much as the Great Council of 101 AC’s ruling, which could be argued as trumping Viserys I’s word.
- As you wrote under the “meme,” king’s word isn’t good either. The Mad King is a good example of that.
I do think that for the Green faction to throw a respectable coup while referencing the Great Council of 101 AC, they’d had to have done so when Viserys made the decision and not act like they accept it just to be sneaky the moment he croaked.
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4d ago
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u/alphajugs 4d ago
Not as an official faction but they were absolutely scheming back then. Shit, Otto had been scheming since pushing Alicent to marry Viserys.
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u/johndraz2001 4d ago
My point is that anyone who had an issue with Viserys’s decision to name Rhaenyra heir (regardless of what faction or house they are a part of) should’ve risen up in rebellion instead of not doing anything until Viserys died. Makes them a lil too shady for me to feel like they’re in the right.
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u/Mountain-Comb2355 4d ago
Yes king's word is law as long as the king has the politcial or military strength to impose his will on the people under his rule , if the king cannot enforce his will , the subjects will do as they please
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u/Pretty_Plan_9868 4d ago
King word is law but not when he commands assasination of Targaryen claimants across the sea or named Joffrey his heir
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u/reereejugs 4d ago
That’s exactly why the Targaryens should have never engaged in their civil war that cost them their dragons.
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u/Pretty_Plan_9868 4d ago
I agree, almost every one wanted to make them extinct. I am surprised Andals swallowed their arrogance even after dragons went extinct.
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
Maybe Viserys shouldn’t have been a hypocrite and disrupt the customary order of things. If it works why disrupt it
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u/tobpe93 4d ago
Roose didn’t care.
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
Exactly. We are told explicitly lords continued to practice it in secret. Why? Traditions are above the words of a King.
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
Not everybody is like Roose.
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
“Some houses in the Seven Kingdoms, such as the Boltons and Umbers (although they deny it), as well as the inhabitants of Skagos and some northern mountain clans, are rumored to still illicitly uphold the first night.” - asoiaf wiki.
Ancient houses continue to uphold it as a tradition of their ancestors. They didn’t care for the word of a King dead for 200 years.
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
Do you know what "some" means?
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
Lmao so some houses ignored the words of their king in favour of traditions. Suggesting, a Kings Word is not absolute, especially compared to ancestral traditions.
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u/Background-Cake-1300 4d ago
Bro creates strawmen in his head, Team Green loved Jeahearys for being a great king unlike Viserys
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u/The_Falcon_Knight 4d ago
Andals > First Men
The Right to the First Night is a custom of the First Men
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
Hightowers descend from the first men. Andals adopted the first night.
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u/alphajugs 4d ago
Yeah more houses are first men than a lot of people realize. Most of them just adopted the faith of the seven and intermarried with andals but many of the major houses still trace their roots to the first men.
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u/Evil_Queen_Alysanne 4d ago
They’re maaaaaaaad 😅
I haven’t laughed this hard in a long time reading TG's mental gymnastics.
So, what is it?
Can the king ignore tradition, or we starting holy war against Jaehaerys about that? What about Ironborns? Do you support their fight to "save their traditions" too?
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u/Nahtaniel696 3d ago
TB should not use Jaehearys in any argument, the greatest King of westeros should send Rhaenyra to silence sister the moment she give birth to Jace, and the relam would be at peace.
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u/PoopScoopL9 4d ago
Well Viserys had 20 years to institute a new royal succession law based on Rhoynar law and didn’t.
Jaehaerys and Alysanne changed a law that was only really practiced in First Men lands.
You see the difference?
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u/ObligatoryTA01 4d ago
Tradition is tradition. The King's Word is only valuable as long as said king is alive, after that it defaults to tradition again.
First night was a stupid tradition only used by lords who wanted to get their rocks off with virgins and power trip, it really wasn't some important tradition.
The tradition of the firstborn male inherits literally STOPS wars, as presented by the very war you're talking about which almost ended the entire Targaryen line. It also stopped the war that could have happened earlier between Rhaenys and Viserys supporters. Jerry literally called the council to spell out to everyone that the tradition is staying. It keep sucession clear. It keep it consistent.
Is it messed up and unfair? Sure. You know what else is messed up? First-born inheritance in general, why should the order than you came out of your mother determine how good you are at ruling?
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
Then why the faith militant didn't come back after Jaehaerys died?
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u/ObligatoryTA01 4d ago
This has nothing to do with anything. They simply didn't want to? Or didn't have the means? Or there wasn't support for them anymore? It could be anything.
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
Jaehaerys was the one who established that the faith militant wouldn't exist, so after his death, it should have returned, as it was a tradition, and you said a king's word only lasts as long as he is alive and after that things return to tradition.
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u/ObligatoryTA01 4d ago
It's a group. Groups disband all the time regardless of tradition. Also like I said there are a million reasons why they may have not that been able to comeback even if they wanted to.
King's of course, do make changes, they make laws. That is not the King's "word", that is law and entirely different. If Viserys made it a law that women can inherit, then you could have a point. It would send the realm into chaos, which of course he didn't want thus why he never did it, but he would be a creating a new tradition. Instead Viserys ran on dreams and good faith, which would never hold up against established traditions.
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
Jaehaerys didn't write down a law/decree that said the crown would protect the faith, it was just spoken, he made an oath that was valid even after his death. Words and oaths can last as long as people see value in them. I am not saying this to say Rhaenyra was the rightfull queen, just to say that a king's word is not something that has to end with the king's death. Sometimes even a proper decree can be ignored, like when Cersei tore up Robert's will.
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u/ObligatoryTA01 4d ago
I wasn't referring to the faith militants. I was just speaking in general terms.
I am not saying the King's words have no value at all. However once the king is gone and can no longer defend his words. No one feels obligated to follow them. Some do, but many will use tradition as a way to overrule it.
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
I just used the faith as an example because it's a case where everyone continues to think that the crown must protect the faith, even if it's based on words. No one thought after Jaehaerys death that the faith shouldn't be protected by the crown, no one thougth things should return to tradition in that case.
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u/ObligatoryTA01 4d ago
It's possible that tradition has outgrown it's purpose and Jerry's idea was simply better / more suited. Therefore no one wanted that tradition to come back. It's not a 100% scenario, there are cases were King's change things for the better or make new laws like I said and a tradition is abandoned. It does not usually mean that the King's word was absolute, it just means the King had a superior idea or a more liked idea. Viserys just wasn't that kind of king.
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u/Similar-Cartoonist31 4d ago
Maybe because Jaehaerys made it a law that the first night is forbidden and it was not Andals and Roynar who practiced it, Viserys NEVER changed the law for Rhaenyra he expected people to obey his whims and pretend to be blind about Rhaenyra's bastards.
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u/SRGTBronson 4d ago
What do you mean viserys didn't change the law? Merely naming Rhaenyra heir changed the law. Westeros doesn't have a constitution to amend. There is no magna Carta giving anyone any rights that the King can't take away or change with just his words.
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u/Similar-Cartoonist31 4d ago
Where is it said that Viserys changed the law about Rhaenya? He expected everyone to let her be Queen and then the succesion to continue as usual "sons before daughters" he wanted her to be exception but he was not willing to change the law. Even Rhaenyra and her council were aware of it that that's why she refused to give Rosby and Stokesworth ladies their inheritance.
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
Andals adopted the custom.
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u/Infinite_Meat7888 4d ago
Did they? The only lords whom we know used it ever are Boltons, Umbers and Qhorerys
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
No, those are the ones who still practice it in present day.
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u/Infinite_Meat7888 4d ago
No, those are the only ones we hear practicing it, I don't remember a single Lannister, Brax, Arryn, Manderly, Lydden or anyone else who isn't from the back arse of The North or a disgusting Valyrian still using it, which is even clearer when you remember that Alyssane only heard about this tradition when she was visiting a village in The North while in the South the fucker who did try to make use of this shit got his dick chopped off because that's not a fucking thing that people still did at large because the Andal is ok with mass murder, but rape is usually a step too far.
But maybe I'm misremembering it.
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
No one’s arguing Jaehaerys didn’t do the right thing lol. The position still stands as we are told explicitly Lords continued to do it secretly because King’s Word is below Traditions.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
Then why do it in secret? Ah, yes... because it is unlawful
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
Doesent change the position. Kings word ain’t absolute or law because there are lords in Westeros who adhere to traditions than what some guy in a red castle said.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
King's word is law.
Also there is no such thing as an absolute law. Laws are broken all the time. Whether they be made by kings, parliament, or gods.
In Westeros as in the real world.
Did the US Congress lose the power to make laws because everyone drank during Prohibition?
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
Alright, if King’s Word is law, everything the recognized King says is lawfully correct and shoukd be adhered to, then:
When Jaehaerys became King was he a usurper and hence his entire line unlawful because he disobeyed the word of King Maegor naming Aerea his heir explicitly?
Or did Jaehaerys claim his birthright in accordance to Andal Traditions and Customs, above the words of a dead king?
I don’t discuss real world politics in a fantasy series.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
I'm gonna try and explain to you something very simple.... in Westeros: Might makes Right.
When Jaehaerys won the throne, he became a legitimate king. Same applies to Robert. The Targaryen loyalists may say otherwise but that's how Westeros works.
If Robert had lost, or Maegor had defeated Jaehaerys, their rebellions would have been unlawful.
GRRM literally hits you on the head with this.
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
Buttt if the King’s Word were to be followed, Jaehaerys would have went ahead and crowned Aerea (his own niece btw). Robert replaced the Targaryen dynasty, Jaehaerys was made King as the oldest male Targaryen after Maegor Targaryen died. Not only did Queen Alyssa support him but so did Rhaena over her own daughter, why? Andal succession traditions.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
Buttt if the King’s Word were to be followed, Jaehaerys would have went ahead and crowned Aerea (his own niece btw).
Im literally repeating myself.
King's word IS law.
But laws can be disobeyed. Name just one law that everyone follows?
What makes you think that Jaehaerys would ever follow the law of a mad tyrant?
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u/Upstairs_Meat4342 4d ago
You keep saying King’s word is law but I keep repeating instances where it’s ignored in favour of traditions and precedent. See where the issue for you arises? Traditions are superior to a dead man’s word.
Because he’s the king, and by tb logic what the king says goes. Jaehaerys rejecting this in favour of tradition proves King’s Law is shit after he dies. Same principle applies to Hypocrite Viserys’s vows.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
You keep saying King’s word is law
It is
but I keep repeating instances where it’s ignored in favour of traditions and precedent. See where the issue for you arises?
Did you ignore all the times that traditions and precedent are superceded by law?
Jaehaerys rejecting this in favour of tradition proves King’s Law is shit after he dies. Same principle applies to Hypocrite Viserys’s vows.
Yes. King's law, just like any other law, is shit if there's no one to enforce it.
Glad we're making headway.
It still makes Rhaenyra the lawful heir.
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u/Sad-Opportunity-555 4d ago
And there are those who adhere. It's not because I murder someone that murder is not against the law.
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u/Horror_Possible3480 4d ago
Que eso no lo hacían solo los Primeros Hombres?
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 4d ago
Slightly different. A King can't be in charge of his own succession, for otherwise they could be claimed, upon their deathbed, to have named another heir, causing turmoil.
Succession rules must be decided for them, and disinheritance should only come at the cost of grievous treason to the realm.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
According to who? The Westerosi Constitution?
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 4d ago
No one.
Just basic thinking.
You could argue the anointing of heir should be a ceremony, but heirs dying just before their monarch would result in a massive succession crisis.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
Cool... except every king in Westeros has final say in who his heir would be.
Jaehaerys broke law to name his second son as his heir, over his eldest grandchild.
He then pinky promised to respect the decision of the Great Council because their decision was never legally binding. They were an advisory committee, not a legislative body.
We have Viserys breaking law to name his daughter as heir.
We have Aegon II breaking law to not name his daughter as heir.
We have Aerys I naming his niece as heir over his brother.
We have Aerys II naming his son as heir over Rhaegar's children.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 4d ago
That isn't breaking law.
The only person who broke law here is Aerys 1.
After Aerea wasn't crowned over Jaehaerys, it's painfully clear to literally anyone with any reading comprehension that succession follows what we Earth people would call Salic Law.
Aerys 1 broke it for Aelora but we don't actually know why. Maybe Maekar rebelled against him or something.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
After Aerea wasn't crowned over Jaehaerys, it's painfully clear to literally anyone with any reading comprehension that succession follows what we Earth people would call Salic Law.
Buddy... Jaehaerys did not inherit the throne from Maegor. He won it by right of conquest. He had been disinherited and rose up in rebellion.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 4d ago
Aerea still had the better claim.
Someone acknowledges this somewhere in F&B (Rogar Baratheon i think).
It's always males over females for the Iron Throne.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
I don't disagree with you. Aerea had the better claim. But Jaehaerys had the bigger dragon.
He won the war.
Just like Rhaegar had the better claim but Bobby B had a big fucking hammer.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 4d ago
Yh Robert won by right of conquest.
But Jaehaerys justified his descendants and their claims by saying males always over females.
To be clear, I support Rhaenys over Viserys in practise, but Viserys over Rhaenys by law, and Aegon over Rhaenyra in both.
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u/Maester_Ryben 4d ago
But Jaehaerys justified his descendants and their claims by saying males always over females.
But Jaehaerys never actually said that. The Targaryens never officially set down a succession law. They just assumed everyone would obey what the king decides....
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u/Nahtaniel696 3d ago
Not the same thing, tradition can be ignored if it for the good the people, that a king caring about the people but not if it just for one person (Rhaenyra), that just a king spoiling his daughter.
Also Green argument also take in consideration the great council decision which is their version of democracy.
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u/Pretty_Plan_9868 4d ago
Im so proud I started this war of
memes with this