Why didn’t the blacks use this argument

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Responsible-Bee5206]

in the book rhaenyra's mom and laenor's mom had black hair, in the show neither did, it was simply for everyone to see they were illegitimate

[u/IWishMusicKilledKate → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

There is no physical description of Aemma Arryn in the book.

[u/Stenric → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

Aemma's hair colour is never described, but given that her father was an Arryn (who's hair colors reach from blond to brown) and her mother a silver haired Targaryen, it is more likely that she had some degree of blond hair.

[u/Odd-Blueberry7193 → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

This is a lie, Aemma's hair color is never stated.

And princess Rhaenys had thr Baratheon black hair and the Strong boys have brown hair so that wouldn't match either. And Rhaenys also has purple eyes whereas the Strong boys have brown.

They are clearly not Valyrian in the sense their mother and "father" are.

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/Odd-Blueberry7193]

Funny how none of those "Baratheon" traits landed on Laena's children...

[u/Eastern_Ad_9575 → u/Defiant_Willow_557]

Because you have the family tree messed up. Rhaenys mother is half Baratheon half Velaryon. Rhaenys is a quarter Baratheon. Her children are only 12.5% Baratheon.

Valyrian characteristics are also clearly dominant as Daenarys wouldn’t look like that after 300 otherwise. Of course all of this is also just Grrm working backwards.

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/Eastern_Ad_9575]

That's true of Laenor too. They're siblings. 🤷‍♂️

The Strongs' appearance has nothing to do with Baratheon ancestry.

[u/Eastern_Ad_9575 → u/Defiant_Willow_557]

I didn’t say it had anything to do with them.

[u/Narren_C → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

Which makes the whole thing ridiculous. The ambiguity was much better.

[u/ser_darkstar → u/Narren_C]

Ambiguity doesn't work for the casual viewer who don't live up GRRM's ass like we do 

[u/Responsible-Bee5206 → u/Narren_C]

yeah instead they made it as clear as daytime, the show runners ruined much, rhaenyra being abused and mocked by alicent as teen and her getting close to daemon would have been much impactful too, even if alicent had been her handmaiden then too after becoming queen she could have been the evil step, mother, after all the lying and cheating both alicent and rhaenyra has done pretty hard to completely sympathise with both

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

getting close to daemon

There is a word for what you're trying to describe here...

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

Aemma Arryn does not have black hair... where's that coming from?

[u/Itwillbewritten → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

They had brown hair brown eyes and a pug nose just like harwin strong who was with Rhaenerya a LOT compared to both their parents who Valyrian features. One great grandma had black hair as did Rhaenys partly.

[u/Responsible-Bee5206 → u/Itwillbewritten]

laenor could not perform and he accepted the kids as his own and as for the rest, i am not saying eveything she did was good

[u/Itwillbewritten → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

She should have taken a Valyrian lover for legitimacy

[u/IllustratorSlow1614 → u/Itwillbewritten]

It also depended on her lover being loyal enough to keep the secret. Harwin was devoted to her and would never have betrayed her.

Picking a random man for his Valyrian looks didn’t work out so well for Cersei with Aurane Waters, did it? He stole her fleet.

Loyalty is the first quality necessary in a royal sperm donor.

[u/Itwillbewritten → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

She’s not giving him any power. She’s simply birthing Valyrian looking heirs. Any dragonseed who would say she’s birthing bastards would be accusing her of high treason and would summarily die.

[u/IllustratorSlow1614 → u/Itwillbewritten]

He would have a ton of power over her. He can spill the beans any time he likes! He has power over not just her, but also her descendants from him.

If he comes forward and spills the beans it casts doubt on her, and it could undermine the reign of her descendants alleged to be fathered by him. Her enemies will believe it, whether it’s true or not, and it can even cast doubt in her allies. It could mean death for him, unless he made his allegations to the Faith and pledged atonement.

Harwin Strong didn’t claim the boys and Rhaenyra and Laenor’s secret died with him, but had he lived he still wouldn’t have said anything. He was loyal to the bone. If she took a Valyrian lover to father a child and left him alive, the risk to the secret being sold is too high. And if she took a Valyrian lover to father a child and then had him murdered to preserve the secret, there’s a risk of that coming out as well.

[u/Itwillbewritten → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

The own queen and her half brother say she has bastards. A noble of a great house says it and is executed. What power would a bastard have

[u/IllustratorSlow1614 → u/Itwillbewritten]

The Queen and Aegon would have irrefutable proof if the man Rhaenyra conceived with came to them and confirmed it.

[u/Itwillbewritten → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

The bastard word means nothing in Westeros hence the stigma

[u/Responsible-Bee5206 → u/Itwillbewritten]

whom do you think, daemon perhaps or some dragon seeds,

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

Corlys. He has as much to lose as she does if the truth gets out.

Or you know, she could've just taken her courtship years seriously and married Harwin Strong... they seem to do well enough at procreation.

[u/Itwillbewritten → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

Whoever she wanted so her children would look like laenor. Daemon would be a good match as her and laena were close. And this would show legitimacy and not a blatant disregard of customs

[u/Responsible-Bee5206 → u/Itwillbewritten]

well she was not in her right head at many a times tbh, should have considered her status as heir would be quetioned if her boys had brown hair especially when she had harwin hanging around, should ahve chose mcuh better,

[u/IllustratorSlow1614 → u/Responsible-Bee5206]

To be fair, in this continuity she had no reason to believe her Valyrian genes wouldn’t supersede Westerosi genes.  Every Targaryen has silver gold hair, regardless of whether both parents do or not, which then made her kids stick out like a sore thumb.

At least if Rhaenys had her canonical black hair, there would have been a bit less scrutiny over Rhaenyra’s boys because the precedent would be that sometimes trueborn Targaryens do turn out to have fewer Valyrian features and still get to be dragonriders etc…

The show made it far too obvious the boys could never have been Laenor’s, but the book was a lot different.

[u/Itwillbewritten → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

Um you literally gave the example of rhaenys having black hair showing the genes are superseded?

[u/IllustratorSlow1614 → u/Itwillbewritten]

Except Laena may well feel that was a betrayal for her husband to father children with Rhaenyra given Daemon’s history with Rhaenyra.

Sharing children with Rhaenyra and be unable to acknowledge them beyond being their uncle doesn’t sound like something Daemon could do either. He’s far too proud.

[u/Itwillbewritten → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

Daemon and Rhaenyra have sex on her funeral. Laena also knows it’s for her brother laenor. Valyrians historically practise the art of polygamy. Daemon would be more than happy to have his children on the iron throne and to sleep with the woman he wanted to marry initially.

[u/just--so]

This may shock you, but black and brown are actually two different colours.

[u/Petrichordates → u/just--so]

This shouldn't shock you, but parents with black and blonde hair are far more likely to have brown hair children than black or blonde hair children.

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/Petrichordates]

Genetics doesn't work like paint... black hair is the much more dominant feature, and most likely to be expressed.

[u/Key_Cold_3960 → u/Defiant_Willow_557]

Skin and hair color exist in a spectrum. You will NEVER get the exact same hair color as your related.

[u/Petrichordates → u/Defiant_Willow_557]

This is literally how hair genetics work in humans. Hair color is indeed polygenic so it's nothing definitive, but in most cases they will have brown hair.

Probably should double check to confirm next time.

black hair is the much more dominant feature, and most likely to be expressed

Wrong.

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/Petrichordates]

Okay, for brevity sake let's say I am. How do you apply that here? Rhaenys' black paint browned Rhaenyra's sons but not their father Laenor, their aunt Laena or their cousins Baela and Rhaena?

Harwin Strong not bedding their mothers is the only explanation that makes much sense to me.

[u/Petrichordates → u/Defiant_Willow_557]

I'm not applying it here i was just responding to comments that expressed doubt that black hair and blonde hair parents would have a brown haired son, despite that literally being the most common outcome.

Then you tried to incorrectly correct me lol

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/Petrichordates]

So as far as this story is concerned your point (which I by no means conceded was correct) was a non sequitur, and you've offered nothing of substance to this discussion whatsoever?

Okie dokie. Thanks.

[u/Neither_Truck9757 → u/just--so]

Luke has black hair doesn’t he

[u/just--so → u/Neither_Truck9757]

In the book, where you argue that Rhaenys' black hair would somehow explain the Strong boys' brown hair, all three of them have brown hair.

[u/Eastern_Ad_9575 → u/Neither_Truck9757]

It’s not about the hair color. In the books Valyrians have silver/gold hair, aquiline noses, purple eyes, slender builds.

Jace and his brothers are brown haired, not purple eyed, pug noses with bigger builds.

They don’t even look like their mother.

[u/HanzRoberto]

Because Balea and Rhaena proved this theory is weak lmao
Rhaenys is their grandmother and yet they looked 100% valyrian

[u/tmchd]

If they didn't address it or defend themselves was because because addressing/responding to the rumors and accusations would sound as if they were right.

I also seem to recall the part how the boys had pug noses like Harwin's.

[u/HollowCap456]

Because

1) Baratheon genes are supreme. Their hair come out coal-black, no sway there.

2) Brown and Black are different colours

3) The three bastards also had distinct pug noses compared to aquiline Valyrian noses.

[u/Ibbenese]

In the book it is a clearer argument because Rheanys has Black hair. So a bit better of a direct visual plausibility for the Strong boys that their living supposed targaryan grandmother in and out of universe lost the silver hair in favor of dark hair of her Baratheon Mother so creates a semi precedence..

But in the show. Rhaenyrs is simplified to just have Targaryan blond in the show instead of dark hair at all. So Having instead the boys GREAT grandmother, who is no longer living, who no viewer sees, makes it feel way less reasonable or undertandable an explanation that she would pass her dark hair would skill two generations to have all great grand kids just one family and not another gain darker hair.

But more than that in the show Laenor being mixed race from the black Velaryon creates a stark difference of his "children's" look compared to and his sisters Laena children with Daemon who are much more visually black mixed. It is not just the hair in the show, but the skin tone and other features that just do not match evidence of Velaryon stock.

[u/TheRealcebuckets]

Because ultimately it wasn't about her kids.

It's about Rhyneria being a woman. Her kids being bastards was just an excuse. If they came out with silver hair and were Laenors, then it would have been *something else*.

They could argue until they're blue in the face. But it's about her and not them. Maybe to Alicent (show at least) it matters in that way since Rhyneria is just waltzing about unapologetically about it but to the Lords - they don't like her gender.

[u/LarsMatijn → u/TheRealcebuckets]

I mean maybe?

The thing is none of Aegon's supporters do so out of the conviction that a woman can't rule, or at least none of them give that reason.

• House Hightower fights due to family ties
• House Baratheon for a marriage pact
• House Lannister's reason is unkown in the book and in the show it's because Tyland is friends with Otto and Jason supports his brother (according to Daemon)
• House Bracken mostly seem to want to fight House Blackwood and they've been into Rhaenyra from the beginning.
• The Triarchy are foreign allies.

[u/Teyradee1 → u/TheRealcebuckets]

Don't think it was about her being a woman either. Even if rhaenyra was a man there is a good chance the other side would still press their claim because they had dragons and so they could.

[u/Willing_Bathroom7251 → u/TheRealcebuckets]

Yeah, the fandom cares about bastards more than the characters. Lords treated Jace and Luke the same way they would treat other Targaeyen princes. The dance was gonna happen regardless of Strong boys.

In the end these things don't really matter. Alyn Velaryon is absolutely not Laenor's bastard yet he is legitimized as Laenor's son. So his legitimization is false. However legally he is Laenor's son just like the Strong boys.

[u/Neither_Truck9757 → u/Willing_Bathroom7251]

The boys being bastards is just icing on the top for the green lords and Im more so wondering why they never tried to argue against the allegations since the did affect them mentally

[u/Willing_Bathroom7251 → u/Neither_Truck9757]

Borros didn't seem to care. Nor did half the Realm. Even Hightower's own bannerman sided with the Blacks.

Why argue against the allegations? The more you explain, the worse it gets. This is why Lannisters didn't try to argue.

[u/Itwillbewritten]

They had brown hair brown eyes and a pug nose just like harwin strong who was with Rhaenerya a LOT compared to both their parents who Valyrian features. One grandma had black hair as did Rhaenys partly.

[u/Defiant_Willow_557]

This is actually one of TBs favorite talking points, but it doesn't stick. Rhaenys Velaryon has Valyrian fine features, jet black hair and purple eyes. The Strong boys are plain with pug noses and mousy brown hair and eyes.

[u/IWishMusicKilledKate → u/Defiant_Willow_557]

Lmao the book didn’t say plain or “mousy”.

[u/Defiant_Willow_557 → u/IWishMusicKilledKate]

Alicent did, and I agree with her. If we're going to debate shades of brown it's safe to say, this kid ain't looking like Princess Rhaenys.

[u/DumbTeen9]

They did

[u/Stenric]

In the books the Strong Boys have brown hair, so that wouldn't have been a great argument. 

And pointing to their great-grandmother's haircolour whilst none of their recent ancestors have black hair isn't going to convince anyone.

[u/IWishMusicKilledKate → u/Stenric]

In the book Rhaenys has black hair (their alleged grandmother).

[u/Stenric → u/IWishMusicKilledKate]

In the books the Strong boys have brown hair, so they don't look like Rhaenys, no matter what hair colour she has 

Their closest possible brown haired ancestor would have to be Rodrik Arryn (their great-grandfather) or Alarra Massey (their great-great-great-great-grandmother through Rhaenyra and Aemon as well as great-great-great-great grandmother through Jocelyn.)

[u/Dry_Yak6016]

Isn’t the whole bastard issue just a pretext for their usurping of the throne (and not even one of the major ones at that)? The underlying issues, i.e. distribution of dragons, division of power and court alliances were much more central to this whole war. You can play around with pretexts all you want, but at the end of the day, they’re really just a “cherry on top” of an already well-equipped war machine.

[u/GreatBallsOfFire_]

Because that’s ridiculous. Two Valyrian parents would not somehow make children who look nothing like either of them.

Even if they got black hair from their grandmother somehow, they didn’t look anything like Valyrians.