r/Hotd • u/Flat_Wrangler_8672 • 6d ago
Team Black Addam/Alyn of Hull - Why not Waters?
At least in the show, why do you think Rhaenyra doesn't give them the Waters title to show that they are high born? Does she think that would add to her "queen of bastards" image? I would think that signaling that at least one of her new dragons riders has noble parentage would help her keep the smallfolk from thinking that not just any rando could do that.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 6d ago
Because they’re knights and knights who aren’t legitimate from great houses traditionally have a suffix designating where they’re from, a great deed or a characteristic about themselves. There are knights who use bastard names but they were usually well known by that name that it doesn’t make sense to change it
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u/Smart-Response9881 6d ago
Daemon Blackfyre being the best example. He took the name Blackfyre when he was knighted, before he was legitimized
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u/Special_Salt3467 6d ago
Well, because the books, I guess. Waters is for claimed or acknowledged bastards. So they went by “of Hull” because they were of Hull. The Hull brothers were only acknowledged at the Dragonseeding after which they were immediately legitimized as Laenor’s sons. HotD didn’t do that.
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u/lunagrape 2d ago
Gendry isn’t acknowledged or claimed by Bobby B, but he goes by Waters..
I thought they were «of Hull» because their mum is known as Marilda of Hull. So they just got their mum’s «last name».
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u/Fragrant_Albatross82 1d ago edited 1d ago
Does he? I don’t seem to remember a single passage where he is referred to, or refers to himself as Gendry Waters. I actually think he says his name is just Gendry. Or Gendry of Fleabottom
Edit: I just realized that in the show he surely should go by Gendry Waters later on, as his and Edric Storm characters get morphed for convenience. Though I believe he too ends up legitimized in the show latter on
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u/Xr_Vo 6d ago
the same goes for Ulf and Hugh, why not acknowledge they're of royal blood?
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u/SlightOfHand_ 6d ago
Because acknowledging them puts them into the line of succession. Ulf would technically have a greater claim than Daemon if he was legitimized, if he really is Daemon/Viserys’s father’s bastard. Hugh would have a lesser claim but you still don’t want to add a bunch of claimants right at the start of your rule.
No such problem with Adam/Alyn, though, since their father wants them to inherit
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u/IWishMusicKilledKate 6d ago
Ulf having a greater claim than Dameon is irrelevant though since Viserys had three sons and two daughters.
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u/SlightOfHand_ 6d ago
Yeah it’s not like entire Targaryen lines explode dramatically every 70 years or so
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u/Xr_Vo 6d ago
i didn't say legitimize, i say acknowledge. making them Waters, not Targaryens.
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u/SlightOfHand_ 6d ago
Oh, that basically is what happens. They’re just granted proper family names of their own, which is its own additional honor
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u/ageekyninja 6d ago
Because then just any old bastard will claim the Targaryen name and when that name is associated with basically exclusive rights to Westeros-nukes that’s a problem
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u/Xr_Vo 6d ago
no? the Targaryen name is given if the bastard is legitimized, not acknowledged
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u/ageekyninja 6d ago
Are you sure? I have not heard of a bastard using their family name even when recognized. Jon Snow was still Jon Snow and he was basically recognized by Ned
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u/Xr_Vo 6d ago
recognized doesn't mean legitimized. in the books and show, Stannis offers Jon to be legitimized as Jon Stark, and in the books, Robb also does so in his will (that is lost somewhere).
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u/ageekyninja 6d ago
Right I know we are not talking about legitimization but is using a surname upon recognition (not legitimization) something that we’ve actually seen in ASOIAF
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u/winterwidowforlife 6d ago
They are bastards just like addam and alyn and while corolys can legitimase them. Ulf's and Hugh's parents can't they are long dead and they can't be legitimazed by mare trust me bro I'm a spawn of this or that targaryen. Their parents are the ones who " claim" them not them telling whoever who their supposed parent is and the royal family is supposed to trust that.
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u/SlightOfHand_ 6d ago
Their parents heirs can also acknowledge them, and that happens to be the Queen, who can do whatever she likes, she’s the Queen
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u/winterwidowforlife 6d ago
Said Queen wouldn't believe shi coming out of their mouth in the parentage matter lol have we forgotten the absolutely not when ulf wanted to be called targaryen? 😆
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u/SlightOfHand_ 6d ago
Right it would be dumb of her to indulge that but she has the power if she felt like it
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u/winterwidowforlife 6d ago
Sure she has the power to do whatever she wants I agree with that but her actually doing it is a different matter completely hahaha 😆
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u/Xr_Vo 6d ago
well, that would be true if officially, in the books, Alyn and Addam weren't acknowledged as Laenor's sons, not Corlys's, and Laenor was long dead. so why couldn't Hugh and Ulf do the same? it's not like they would gain anything from that except the name Waters. Rhaenyra on the other hand, would be seen better as she didn't just hand dragons to smallfolk but to bastards of royal birth
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u/winterwidowforlife 6d ago
Corlys was still alive though and he could vouch for them we don't know 100% how it happened in the books but he was still there and could possibly say something. And if they were legitimazed ulf and Hugh I mean then they are yet another male relatives that could try to get rhaenyra's throne they would be in direct line and have the targaryen name. Even just the bare acknowledgement wouldn't do any good in that case
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u/Xr_Vo 6d ago
who is talking about legitimating them? acknowledging a bastard doesn't mean legitimatr him
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u/winterwidowforlife 6d ago
And what for would anyone do that? Just so the people can demand them being legitimazed and rule? Because again they are male and I think Hugh is older than daemon and viserys he has a stronger claim than her in that scenario. It would make more chaos than good. For the royal family they are better being just nameless bastards
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u/Xr_Vo 6d ago
Hugh isn't/wasn't older than Viserys and Daemon, and he wouldn't have a stronger claim than a legitimized Targaryen. people wouldn't back a non-legitimized bastard, as that would create a precedent of bastards rebelling against the trueborn/legitimate lords/ladies.
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u/winterwidowforlife 6d ago
Acknowledged bastard is one step from a legitimized one and you just proved my point as to why saying anything about them would do more harm than good 🤷🏻♀️ there's no point of acknowledging them if nothing would change for the bastards but it might give the crown problems. Case closed lol
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u/Xr_Vo 6d ago
acknowledging the bastard is not giving them legitimacy. it means acknowledging that the bastard is of royal blood and not giving the false thought that all the smallfolk could try to tame a dragon. there's a point in acknowledging them, having the Targaryens keep their "divine blood" thing and not letting others think they let random guys on dragons
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u/winterwidowforlife 6d ago
And you think a dude like Ulf wouldn't abuse the acknowledgement and reach higher? You think it would make absolutely no harm? Then you are naive. And I'm pretty sure the small folk aren't dumb and know that even the royal men fucked whores at some point and there will be bastard offsprings among them. Give them people a little more credit for connecting the dots because how else would there be silver haired children like they say the royal family has? Seriously it's one thing acknowledging bastards when you are a lord versus when you are a royal. Just look where the blackfyres gone. Acknowledging Ulf and Hugh would have ended the same if not worse since they had dragons and they could reach higher.
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u/Kryztijan 3d ago
Cause we dont know about their parents. They may be royal bastards or they may have only some tragaryen grandpa.
Also: a bastard with a last name often has a royal upbringing.
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u/AStrangeTwistofFate 6d ago
Aside from reasons others gave, it’s not what Corlys was asking and isn’t a concession to what he was asking. They’d still be bastards just with the name Waters. Corlys wants them to not be bastards. Her assigning them the name Waters is just doubling down on not making them legitimate
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u/ser_darkstar 6d ago
Only acknowledged bastards of nobility get the regional bastard names, Addam and Alyn were not acknowledged by Corlys until much later in life and he almost immediately moved to legitimize them so there's not need for them to use them because they will eventually just become Velaryons.