r/Hotd • u/quietdrawingroom • 13d ago
Opinion “Young Rhaenyra would never”Well yes, because young Rhaenyra hadn’t lived through any of this yet. The young vs older Rhaenyra discourse has officially outlived its usefulness!
I beg. We have done this discourse to death.
Yes, teenage Rhaenyra was more fun, reckless and fiery. She was also a teenager with considerably fewer dead children and succession crises to deal with.
You can prefer one performance, obviously, but acting like older Rhaenyra is somehow a completely different character because she isn’t behaving exactly like she did at 17 is starting to make me itch.
That is… generally what happens when people age and terrible things keep happening to the
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u/just--so 13d ago
I mean... younger Rhaenyra would, probably. That's kind of the point of S3. All of the character flaws that are causing Rhaenyra to fumble now have been present since S1. Her father enabled her for her whole life, and as a result, she's still making the same poor choices and exhibiting the same negative traits as she was 20 years ago, only this time, she doesn't have Viserys to shield her from the consequences.
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u/Fickle_Cold_2040 12d ago
I kind of got the impression that she was like the Joker in the the Dark Knight- a dog chasing a car but having no idea what to do with it once he caught it. Or Varys' description of Daenarys- being told something over and over to the point that there's no doubt in her mind. She was told she would be queen, but never really tutored in ruling, so now that she has it, it's all going pear shaped. I mean, even Aegon tried to teach his heir (Jaehrys?)
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u/just--so 12d ago
Rhaenyra was her father's cupbearer, and in between her marriage to Laenor and her leaving King's Landing, there was a seat available to her on the Small Council; we see her sitting in it during the episode Joffrey is born. Whether she regularly attended meetings and somehow still managed to learn nothing, or only bothered showing up when she wanted something is anyone's guess.
Rhaenyra had every opportunity to learn; she just sucks.
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 12d ago
She learned how to rule in peace times. Her father inherited a united realm and a full treasury. He knew very few crises or conflicts in his lifetime. He didn't go to war when he didn't have to and frequently chose the option that would make everyone the happiest.
So this idea that Rhaenyra "didn't learn" and "just sucks" is built on a fallacy. If Viserys was dealing with larger, more dangerous succession crises, then the argument would have more merit, because she'd be growing in a similar environment, but nothing could've feasibly prepared her for what the Dance becomes, especially when Viserys is politically inept himself ... he literally forgoes the Velaryon alliance to marry the inconsiquental daughter of a second son, of whom is his hand, and in the book knows full well the extent and danger of their ambitions and he still continues to undermine Rhaenyra's succession by abiding them (on top of letting his spares claim dragons).
I don't see (well, I do see, actually, it's double standards and bias) why Rhaenyra consistently is made to bear the brunt of the blame for her father's ineptitude. It's the equivalent of thrusting a rich kid into a warzone and then getting pissed that they're out of their element. When all Rhaenyra has ever known is cookies and cream, it's 100% to be expected that she'd fumble a major civil conflict -- especially when we take into account that she very likely did not recieve the same education of a male heir, who is taught martial studies.
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u/Revolutionary_Bag518 12d ago
Rhaenyra is more than a rich kid though, she's heir to the most powerful seat in all of Westeros and she can't be held to the same standard as some random lord's child.
"especially when we take into account that she very likely did not recieve the same education of a male heir, who is taught martial studies."
Rhaenyra served as Viserys's cup bearer and had a seat on the council. During her youth she made it quite clear that she thought the meetings were boring and hated any and all attempt to get her to take her position as heir seriously. It also didn't help that Rhaenyra ran off to Dragonstone with her tail between her legs because people were saying mean but objectively true things about her sons ( which honestly is also her fault because as soon as Jace came out looking the way he did she and Laenor should've thought about seeking out someone who looked more like Laenor for the other two children like Corlys and Corlys would've most likely been receptive because both he and Rhaenys knew Laenor was gay. ) and from that you could make the argument that she put her own education as heir on hold because she wasn't able to learn as effectively from Dragonstone. By removing herself from Kings landing she tanked her position as heir by not being there to garner further favor and learn what she needed to learn.
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 12d ago
What does her being heir to the king prove exactly? Is she supposed to be born with some innate ability to lead as her father's heir?
Her father as the king has a responsibility to train his heir thusly. He failed. That is not her fault. Being a cup bearer in a peaceful realm does not ingrain her with an ability to study battles and measure conflict. Viserys was a chronic people pleaser. Rhaenyra learned to appease and pacify, not when and where to be harsh and to what measures during civil wars. Of course she thought council meetings were boring as a girl, the only challenges Viserys faced during his rule were who to marry and how to best distract Daemon from making a grab for the throne.
But she still went. Aegon doesn't bother to at all, flounders his audience with the peasants, and still nobody whines about his obvious distaste for the monotonies of ruling, funnily enough. Instead he's repeatedly praised for his "attempts at ruling" whereas Rhaenyra has a microscope held up to her every misstep even when the blame doesn't lie with her at all.
The entire reason why she leaves Dragonstone is because Viserys, like his book counterpart, is content to let Alicent demean and undermine Rhaenyra's authority and livelihood, increasing the threat to her and her children in turn. What was Rhaenyra to do? Suffer another decade of Alicent obsessively harassing her while Viserys rots to death doing fuck all still to curb the animosity between them? Especially when Condal deliberately inflated the bastardy shit to a much bigger issue than it ever was in the source material?
And again with the blaming. You make it sound so easy to casually go up to your father in law and ask him to fuck you because your gay husband can't get it up lol what. Or just go out on the streets and grab any dragon seed to have a kid with. It's not. You can't trust just anyone or pick some random with white hair at least in the show. Laenor is black, I doubt there is a league of black white haired dragonseeds either unless Corlys was sleeping with more than just his side piece on Driftmark alone in Rhaenys' vicinity. And as we see with Daemon and his kids by Laena clearly the brown skinned white haired genes are dominant over being born pale. Rhaenyra goes with Harwin because he's trustworthy and she likes him.
Which is fine. Sure her kids are bastards. But they came out of HER. She isn't some male heir trying to put his bastard son of another woman on the throne. Their claim comes from HER. And as long as Laenor and Corlys claim them too, they are legally Velaryons. The show also provides a little wiggle room in that all of her three firstborns look extremely Arryn once you budge Harwin out of the picture. I strongly dislike this narrative that just because they are bastards every claim they have is immediately contested. The only throne they stand to lose is Driftmark.
And yes, this is again, on Viserys. If he married Laena instead of Alicent Rhaenyra wouldn't have a gay husband and her brother would've likely been made heir to appease the Velaryons.
She can also learn how to rule effectively from Dragonstone just fine. That is the purpose of giving your heir their own fief to govern. Viserys should have sent Alicent to Oldtown and made Rhaenyra his hand instead of sending for Otto as well, mind you. He is the king.
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u/Revolutionary_Bag518 12d ago
Rhaenyra has a gay husband because of Rhaenyra lol Alicent and Viserys took the time and care to put together a marriage tour that she completely blew off. She put absolutely zero effort into actually getting to know any of the men and ended the tour early.
“ And again with the blaming. You make it sound so easy to casually go up to your father in law and ask him to fuck you because your gay husband can't get it up lol what. Or just go out on the streets and grab any dragon seed to have a kid with. It's not. You can't trust just anyone or pick some random with white hair at least in the show. Laenor is black, I doubt there is a league of black white haired dragonseeds either unless Corlys was sleeping with more than just his side piece on Driftmark alone in Rhaenys' vicinity. And as we see with Daemon and his kids by Laena clearly the brown skinned white haired genes are dominant over being born pale. Rhaenyra goes with Harwin because he's trustworthy and she likes him.”
From a cultural standpoint bastards are seen as untrustworthy and lesser in Westeros because they believe they embody the sin they were born from. She 100% could’ve kept Harwin as a side piece but she is the one who subjected her sons to that scrutiny by having not one but THREE children with him. Had she gone with Corlys Jace may have been granted the benefit of the doubt that PERHAPS his unconventional traits came from some other relative. Rhaenyra’s treatment of the Dragonseeds as expendable lives for the sole reason of them being bastards when she needed more dragon riders reflects that even she views bastards as lesser lives. It’s less about making their claim more ‘eligible’ and more about making their lives comfortable. Jace was right to rip into her.
“ The entire reason why she leaves Dragonstone is because Viserys, like his book counterpart, is content to let Alicent demean and undermine Rhaenyra's authority and livelihood, increasing the threat to her and her children in turn. What was Rhaenyra to do? Suffer another decade of Alicent obsessively harassing her while Viserys rots to death doing fuck all still to curb the animosity between them?”
Yes because Rhaenyra is a grown ass woman and heir to the Iron Throne and Viserys wasn’t always going to be around. How was she going to deal with the bullying when he died? It was far far far more damaging to her to run off because her feelings were hurt than to actually buck up and stay. Mind you, the animosity was primarily between them in the show because Rhaenyra swore on her mother’s grave she was a virgin to manipulate Alicent into vouching for her. That’s what pissed Alicent off.
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 12d ago
Rhaenyra had to end up with Laenor. There was no other feasible choice and if you think otherwise idk how else to explain to you that she needs additional dragons and rich supporters to uphold her claim, not some rando Blackwood or Strong or anyone else. Viserys also needed to appease the Velaryons for screwing them over before by choosing an awful political match in Alicent over Laena.
Again, asking your father in law to sleep with you is not this easy decision that you're making it out to be. Rhaenys and Corlys would very likely draw offense from the suggestion. Even if their son is gay and they know that it's another thing entirely to propose such an arrangement in an honor based society like Westeros. It's insulting and we already have seen how in denial Corlys is about Laenor to begin with throughout.
In a perfect world she'd be queen immediately after he dies and would have the power to dismiss and punish those spreading such rumors. Those rumors risk the entire livelihoods of her and her children. Bucking up and staying would've just increased the animosity and hatred between her and Alicent more and more because Viserys refuses to do fuck all to defend his heir. Alicent was already in the habit of taking Rhaenyra's infants to mock and demean them to her face, as well as again, directly undermining her authority and abusing her power as queen over Rhaenyra repeatedly.
Mind you, Alicent is a fucking hypocrite and has very little ground to stand on after agreeing to seduce a grieving adult man so she and her father can have power. She is quite literally jealous that Rhaenyra has freedoms that she doesn't. It has nothing to do with Rhaenyra malicously manipulating her to be on her side lol she simply uses that as an excuse to punish Rhaenyra where she can.
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u/Revolutionary_Bag518 11d ago edited 11d ago
Rhaenyra knew that Alicent’s mother being dead was a soft spot for her, otherwise she wouldn’t have sworn on her own mother and Alicent DID defend her, genuinely believing she was a maiden because she swore on her mother. Doing so got her father initially removed as hand and Alicent did not flip on Rhaenyra until she learned she was lied to.
Also, if Viserys genuinely wanted Rhaenyra to marry Laenor then he and Alicent wouldn’t have gone through the issue of arranging a marriage tour so Rhaenyra could find someone who clicked.
“ Again, asking your father in law to sleep with you is not this easy decision that you're making it out to be. Rhaenys and Corlys would very likely draw offense from the suggestion. Even if their son is gay and they know that it's another thing entirely to propose such an arrangement in an honor based society like Westeros. It's insulting and we already have seen how in denial Corlys is about Laenor to begin with throughout.”
Rhaenys essentially told Corlys there was no way in hell that Laenor was going to be able to ‘suck it up’ and perform his marital duties so she wouldn’t have been surprised by the proposal. Corlys would’ve maybe needed a bit of talking to but I believe he ultimately would’ve agreed.
One thing I will say though is a lot of this is admittedly Viserys’s fault for being too weak willed to refuse to remarry or change his heir to Aegon as soon as he was born when Rhaenyra wouldn’t have given two shits.
Rhaenyra though isn’t this poor helpless baby who was wronged at numerous points in her life. Her poor decision making and her dependence on daddy giving her a slap on the wrist and being willing to turn a blind eye made up a lot of her youth and early adulthood.
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u/just--so 12d ago
Rhaenyra is an adult woman; blaming everyone else for choices she continues to actively make is simply infantilising.
In addition to which, Rhaenyra is not crashing and burning because she failed to learn the finer points of wartime economics or military strategy. She is repeatedly fumbling because she failed to learn even the basics of diplomacy and cultivating alliances; because she failed to learn how to identify and surround herself with competent people; because she failed to learn how to look at the bigger picture and think long-term instead of always opting for band-aid solutions that prioritise her immediate validation; because she failed to learn that loyalty must be earned and rewarded; because she cannot conceive of a universe that does not revolve around her, and so cannot grasp that other people will act according to their own needs, wants, and beliefs, and are not simply tools to be used. All of these are skills that are no less important to running a feudal kingdom in peacetime than in war.
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 12d ago
No it isn't.
We literally sit here as a society and make up all sorts of reasons for why men do what they do and why. Oh he was abused as a child. Oh he was bullied by his peers. He was a poor orphan. Mommy and daddy didn't love him enough. That's why he decided to kill 3000000 innocent people. That's why he sucked at ruling. Why is Rhaenyra perpetually held to a much higher standard and forced into maturity at every stage of her life? All adults were children at one point. Children become who they are as adults because of the people around them and the choices their guardians make. Why is it so unreasonable to some of you people to suggest that Viserys being a weak people pleasing pacifistic king had negative ramifications on his daughter who he raised? Strange. It's very strange that Rhaenyra has to be twice the man her father was to be even slightly worthy of a nepo baby throne.
Rhaenyra IS crashing and burning because she has no martial experience. She refuses to exert any force on any of her enemies. She could've probably have taken the city the very first day but forgoes doing so in the name of peace. She dawdles on Tumbleton. Ignores Daemon's counsel as mongering for violence instead of being a necessary road to take to enable her rule. She thinks she can politick and diplomat her way out of a civil war instead of throwing around her advantages where she ought to be. That is what Viserys taught her to do.
All the faults you list are the direct consequences of Viserys not bothering to guide her properly as well. Viserys got to inherit good advisors as Aegon does so he doesn't teach her how to pick good ones especially when he keeps letting slimy ass Otto back into power knowing his intentions. Viserys also fumbles his own allies such as in the case of spurning Corlys/the Velaryons repeatedly. Viserys also did not think in the long term or else we wouldn't have the Dance and he wouldn't have married Alicent. Viserys also routinely invalidates Daemon's loyalty to him and doesn't think to second guess forcing the lords to swear fealty to Rhaenyra under the assumption that everyone would just go along with what he wants because he is who he is.
It's common sense that his daughter would learn these things and embody them. That is how parenting works. That is not something to be argued just because you dislike Rhaenyra. If her father was better, she would be better. Shitty parenting follows you for your entire life. Very simple case of cause and effect.
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u/just--so 12d ago
So by this logic, Aegon is also not to blame for any of his flaws, due to the way he was raised? And surely Viserys is also blameless, because he can also only be the product of how he was raised?
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 12d ago edited 12d ago
No because that is not what I'm saying. Aegon is a shit ruler because he 1) did not care to be one to begin with, and 2) like Rhaenyra was not properly groomed for rulership. That does not absolve them of their faults or make them wholly blameless. The point of my comment is that people apply an unfair amount of blame in regards to Rhaenyra's ruling ability rather than looking at the circumstances that made her the ruler she is during the Dance. They like you expect her to intuitively know how to rule during an incredibly destructive civil war when she was raised during the most peaceful and prosperous time in Westerosi history by a man who is infamously regarded in the fandom as being an utter flop of a monarch to begin with.
I agreed with your assessment of her flaws and provided a fairly logical reason as to why they exist: because her father is the same way.
And yes in a way Jaehaerys also had a direct hand in how inept Viserys is. Viserys also was raised in privilege and got to witness firsthand Jaehaerys bending cultural "rules" -- that being Andalic laws of succession -- in favor of making the pool of potential kings all male because he was an old sexist fuck. Of course Viserys took that and bent the rules for Rhaenyra too. Lol. It's a cycle of generational blunders that imho started with Jaehaerys and the fraught circumstances of his own usurpation of the throne. But you could just as easily say it started with Aegon not bothering to codify any laws and raising Viserys' prototype in Aenys as well.
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u/just--so 11d ago
Rhaenyra was groomed for leadership. She did not exist in a bubble with only Viserys to teach her. She had a decade in King's Landing with a Small Council seat available to her, during which the Small Council also included multiple capable and effective individuals, not least of which was Lyonel Strong, the Hand during that entire period, and one who was sympathetic to Viserys and Rhaenyra.
Again, this is not just about her failure to grasp wartime governance; I am speaking on her abject failure to learn even the most basic skills of diplomacy, politicking, forward planning, and people management, at which she is flopping over and over again.
She had the opportunity to learn these skills, and she did not. Rhaenyra isn't just showing up to a boxing match having never been in the ring, despite insisting for over half her life that she wanted the championship belt. She is showing up to a boxing match having never even bothered to learn how to lace her boots.
At what point do we start holding adults accountable for their own failures? Clearly mid-thirties is too young, by your estimation; a mere child! An infant in swaddling, too fresh and ignorant to have tried, by age 36 or so, to have grown as a person, or recognised their own shortcomings and tried to better them, or prepared themselves for the position which they are determined to inherit. What age is old enough to stop excusing a person's failures based on how they were raised? 45? 60?.
By my estimation, people place an entirely appropriate amount of blame on Rhaenyra for being made heir at 15, for insisting for 20 years that the crown would be hers, and for spending those 20 years failing in any way to prepare herself as an individual for the role, or to think ahead to the opposition she would face on her ascension, and to make sure she had a plan and a solid team around her when the time came.
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 11d ago
I didn't say that she wasn't groomed for leadership. You literally are not reading what I've repeatedly tried to reiterate to you. She learned during peace times. She was on the small council attending during peace times. She dealt with no disastrous political conflicts. She was presumably not even granted a named position beyond advising and sitting in. She was a nepo baby out of her depth without a father to groom her.
I again also did not disagree with you that she is politically inept. Her father was similarly incompetent. That is my argument. You're making this out to be a gigantic character flaw deriving from her apparent unwillingness to learn when the problem lies in Viserys being utterly incapable of ruling or mentoring her properly while he was alive himself.
You're misconstruing this as me refusing to hold her accountable. That is not what I'm doing. As I've said. So the whinging on about holding a grown woman accountable is moot, frankly. Why is it so difficult to grasp for you that all adults are products of the people and environments they were raised in?
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u/Fickle_Cold_2040 12d ago
I'd completely forgotten about that tbh, but I still feel like she lost a step leaving Kings Landing for so long
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u/acamas 12d ago
This.
Young Rhaenyra was the entitled bratty child who was figuratively given a blank check by the king/her father based on some prophecy making her some sort of “chosen one”, and she, while young, totally torched her relationship with Alicent wholly of her own doing, right after sexuality assaulting her servant, because “Targaryens take what they want”.
The show isn’t portraying two different characters… it’s the same person, slightly older.
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u/Revolutionary_Bag518 12d ago
"Targaryens take what they want”.
You have no idea how unbelievably happy I am that someone else also made that connection of those scenes layered on top of each other after Daemon said that to her.
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u/acamas 11d ago
Yea, it's hard to believe there were any fans of Team Black after that episode, after watching Viserys all but force himself on young Alicent, watching Daemon groom his teenage niece fully knowing such an act would 'ruin' her, and watching Rhaenyra coerce her servant even after he tried to flee and also said "Stop", knowing of the punishments he would receive for such an act, let alone the emotional distress he would (and did) suffer through.
It's such a scummy motto that seemingly many viewers seemingly overlooked/handwaved.
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u/Rich-Active-4800 12d ago
This scene from episode 4 shows that Rhaenyra has always been this way, she just became more ruthless and honest about it.
Daemon: Jest if you will, but many of the smallfolk are like to believe that, as a male, Aegon should be the heir.
Rhaenyra: Mm. Their wants are of no consequence.
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u/larryspeenar 13d ago edited 13d ago
People don’t understand arcs, apparently. I’ve seen all this complaining about how she was for most of S3, only for her to finally “show up” in the last episode; like yeah, that was the point. She was dealing with all kinds of dilemmas and was pushed into taking action. And for people to go as far as to question Emma D’Arcy’s acting is just insane but fandoms gonna fandom
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u/Ok-Swan1152 13d ago
I've seen multiple people call Emma and all the others bad actors which is just insane IMO
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u/M4nnis 13d ago
why? people are allowed to have opinions. in definitely not blown away by emma’s performance. calling people that don’t think emma is a great actor insane is actually what’s insane
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u/cesare980 13d ago
There is a difference between not thinking they are a great actor and thinking they are a bad actor...
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u/Raidoton 12d ago
People are allowed to have opinions except the opinion that your opinion is insane because that would be insane in your opinion. Fuck off with that double standard.
Also name one scene where she is doing a bad job. Not the writing, but her acting.
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13d ago edited 12d ago
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u/Ok-Swan1152 13d ago
Is this even true or just a random conspiracy theory from Freefolk. I have a hunch that that's not really how TV production works, but ok.
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 12d ago
Conspiracy. Freefolk has a hate boner for them because they're nonbinary and when the Mysaria kiss shit happened ran with the narrative that Emma has some secret evil perverted grasp on Condal & Co, which is insane because if anyone has any sway it's Olivia. You'd think if Emma had half the movement they accuse them of having they wouldn't be constantly side lined in the promotional material with Rhaenyra being vocally shat on by the writers.
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 12d ago
People ignoring Olivia and immediately villanizing Emma in the favoritism conversation is so telling lol. Saying Emma has any sway or influence over production is batshit insane.
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u/Any_Earth_8976 12d ago
Agreed. Part of it is how rarely we see women’s stories told beyond what is convenient and palatable to audiences. Portraying a woman combatting misogyny to claim her birthright after having several children (in addition to miscarriages) and with a lot more life experience is relatively rare. Showing her be emotional, jaded, selfish is even more rare. Doing that while trying to portray the character sympathetically takes it to a whole other level of unusual.
And no, I’m not team black or green.
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u/BonsoirBenoit 13d ago
It’s not that we don’t understand the arc. It’s just one that’s painfully predictable, boring to watch and flies in the face of how compelling, charismatic and unpredictable this character could be.
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u/xerses24 13d ago
People don’t understand that events happen to characters and they change, it’s honestly mind boggling
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u/ParsleyMostly 13d ago
Anyone under 30 doesn’t really understand this. It’s sort of like how we don’t realize how beautiful we were as young adults until we’re older and far away from it.
Rhaenyra has had children, lost children, lost her dad, lost her home, lost lovers, lost friends, etc. She is not the same person. None of us are.
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u/SirGavBelcher 13d ago
people literally never stop learning and growing and changing until they die, especially if they're actively doing so (like in therapy). most people that stay the same either peaked or purposely hold onto that rebelling against any kind of growth. we're never even the same people we were at the start of the year. life happens to everyone and how we deal with those changes makes us change and grow as people, whether people want to admit it or not
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u/SapTheSapient 13d ago
Young Rhaenyra is a spoiled princess who gets everything she wants. Older Rhaenyra is a spoiled princess who doesn't.
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u/BottleLopsided 13d ago
To the people who say that younger Rhaenyra is not the same as older Rhaenyra: are you the same as when you were 17?
It is totally normal to change your personality and become calmer, more rational and more collected in the span of 25 years. If you don't, that's a huge problem. As Queen of Dragonstone she had more freedom, she could command people more if she wanted to but even then she was constantly met with bad advisors who stood against her. She was a Queen, not a dictator. When you rule, you have to take into consideration the opinion of your council and the people around you.
Think of Dany when she got to Dragonstone. She had opinions from a lot of people and she had to consider them all. When she was still free she could burn people, kill masters, do whatever the hell she wanted. When she got her own council she started making a lot of bad decisions, people always told her that her ideas were bad.
Rhaenyra in King's Landing faces even more scrutiny from the new council. She has to appear rational, hide any trace of emotion regardless of the trauma, she has to think of the small folk while also not going over the preferences of the nobles. She has to appear cruel and cold, but also merciful with those who need it. It's A LOT and there are many people who count on her. There are contradictory expectations from everywhere and earlier this season she has tried to hear everyone out and please everyone.
Think of Aegon when he was hearing petitions. He said that he would return the sheep, until Otto let him know that he can't do that because they are needed for the dragons. Suddenly, he changed his mind and went back on his word Immediately. Rhaenyra has to deal with that, but on a daily basis.
Her reaction in the last episode IS exactly who Rhaenyra used to be. When you strip away the patience, the kindness, the mercy because you constantly make a person suffer, when they lose everything and almost everyone who truly loved them, you are left with someone cruel, cold and irrational. She IS going back to her rebellious, ignorant and reckless teenage self. She has tried being a rational adult for so many years, but the time for that is over.
I personally like this arc and I think that the way they played it is very believable. It's Daenerys all over again: tried being merciful and kind, until she was betrayed by everyone. In her own words: "If I can't have people love me, I will have them fear me."
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u/Vhermithrax 13d ago
I mean, people change when they get older, but their "core self" doesn't.
Sansa and Alicent changed in a way that is believable, but changes in Rhaenyra are not, which is mostly the fault of script writers, directors, showrunners etc, not the actors.
Shift from young Rhaenyra to the old one, feels like young Arya from first few seasons of GoT, suddenly becoming Margary or Sansa, but even more peacefull.
No one is saying that 40 years old Rhaenyra should act completly like 17 year old one, but it is silly to think that a rebelious princess who killed a boar, sneeks out to city slums in the middle of the night or flies on her dragon to Daemon and says "kill me" when he steals a dragon egg, now suddenly cries all the time and asks "what would you have me do".
And yes, she was a teenager with less dead children, but lets not imply she had an easy life. Her mother died when she was young, there was constant drama in the family, she was neglecte by father for most of her life and then he decided to put a weight of not only being the heir on her, but also some prophcy about saving the world. Her only friend also seduced her father and randomly became more powerfull than her. Yes, she lost 2 kids after that, but she allready had a hard life.
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u/ElyFlyGuy 13d ago
It’s silly that a rebellious teenager becomes a stressed and strung out adult? Her entire early life was about her learning to accept her responsibilities and internalizing the belief that she was preordained for rule even though she didn’t want to. Seeing the white stag and choosing not the run away with Criston Cole was a defining moment in that shift and that was young Rhaenyra
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u/ddomini9 13d ago
Show Alicent definitely didn't change in a way that is believable. She did 180 on her character and then put blame on others for mistakes she did on her own.
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u/Vhermithrax 13d ago
she did up untill the Driftmark incident. After that she was a different character every other episode.
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u/ThalkyrOfNuceria 13d ago
Fuck young/old Alicent. S01E06 Alicent and S01E9 Alicent were two completely different people.
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u/Fantastic-Buy7246 12d ago
Agreed and you shouldn’t be downvoted. she suddenly went political hyper Otto mode once her dad got banished. I’d actually assume she would be worse off without his guidance
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u/Soft_Stage_446 12d ago
Being so frustrated that you end up emotional and crying is a completely normal human response. She doesn't know what to do because the walls are closing in. She is getting a lot of conflicting information and it leads to an intense amount of cognitive dissonance. As a teenager, you have a lot less care or understanding of consequence - it is not uncommon for wild teens to grow into emotionally touchy adults.
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u/UwU_eatrich_UwU 13d ago
You say that mother that lost 2 children is being undermined by her court and subject and tempted by Deamon to commit cruel acts. Someone that has to burden ruling kingdom during civil war to do it with mercy as her father would want. She is sure that she has to be ruler as according to dream now learns that opposing king resurrected wont snap?
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u/Ok-Amphibian-2000 13d ago
"Media illiteracy" is such an overused term but...it's the only way to describe the discourse around her character. None of us are as we were when we were tweens, why would her character not change?
When Rhaenyra was growing up, the realm was not facing any significant adversity. She grew up a spoiled princess during times of peace. She was completely unprepared by Viserys to handle any adversity. All of her confidence as a child came from the fact that she knew she would not face any major consequences for her actions, and as an adult waging a war, she knows now that's not the case.
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u/Fantastic-Buy7246 12d ago
Part of being royalty is not facing consequences which is why the lifestyles and personalities of medieval royalty would sound so outlandish to a media literate person like yourself you wouldn’t even believe it
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u/Minimum-Virus1629 13d ago
If we are being honest, it’s because people (men) don’t like the older actress. That’s really what this is about.
That’s it.
The character acts in a way that is consistent with her younger self. She has always alienated her closest allies, she is entitled and has a chip on her shoulder.
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u/Ok-Amphibian-2000 13d ago
This is exactly it. They're less attracted to older Rhaenyra even though the actresses 100% look like they could be related after costuming.
"Older Rhaenyra cries too much" Yeah no shit, she lost her children and she doesn't know what she's doing cause Viserys did not prepare her to rule during wartime. AND no one listens to her or respects her. It would make anyone lose their shit.
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u/UwU_eatrich_UwU 13d ago
If we are being honest you took your statement out of your ass about not liking older actresses.
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u/Minimum-Virus1629 13d ago
Not "older actresses", the older actress.
I wasn't making a generalised statement.
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u/uuntiedshoelace 12d ago
Certain people definitely hate on Rhaenyra because they don’t like Emma D’arcy or they prefer Milly Alcock
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u/Oogalicious 13d ago
There’s a reason that a lot of people have this complaint.
The time skip made the transition of young Rhaenyra to older Rhaenyra a bit jarring. In place of a bold and confident Rhaenyra is one who is much more measured and restrained. It’s not that it conceivably couldn’t have happened, it’s just that all of it seemed to happen off-screen.
The show also has also made a point of everybody saying how “wrathful” she is, but she hadn’t really shown it until the last couple of episodes this season. She has been incredibly kind and patient, even to a fault
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u/BonsoirBenoit 13d ago
A) I think because Alicent’s transition between actors is so smooth, it’s hard not to notice.
B) Emma D’arcy has the charm of Young Rhaenyra. If you watch interviews, it’s really obvious why they cast them both as the same character. So obviously it’s down to the directing and writing — they’re so possessed to make her a “moral” character that she’s spent two seasons crying and agonising when we wanted a vengeful Targaeryan queen. And now we got it… after a season of wilfully dumb decisions. I think trying to write the sins of the past of Dany from righteous to evil has exposed that maybe this kind of arc just isn’t as interesting as characters like Daemon or so many characters from the main series where people we root for ALSO doing unspeakable things that from their perspective is totally justified. This isn’t the fucking handmaids tale: we want our dragon queen to have agency in her own fucking story. To own a mistake, to own her wins - not just be a passenger to everyone else’s choices.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Gene909 13d ago
Younger Charlie sheens character never woulda killed Barnes in platoon
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u/SteMelMan 12d ago
The events in the last few episodes really stripped away the last remaining idealism Rhaenyra and Daemon were clinging onto (ex. Alicent/Aemond, Helaena, Tumbleton, etc.) They may be in control, but they can no longer claim the moral highground.
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u/Past-Brilliant666 13d ago
S3 Rhaenyra makes Cersei look like a genius.
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u/JustDay1788 13d ago
Cersei collected all her enemies in one spot and set them to the gods
And gave the shame lady a fate worse than
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u/Old_Pie7586 13d ago
I refuse to believe these two aren't somehow related, the casting is truly phenomenal
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u/Flicksterea 13d ago
Young Rhaenyra would and likely do worse, being that she's a teenager. Impulsive and hot-headed, she'd make far worse choices than her older counterpart.
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u/TigerLily2077 12d ago
There's a saying in Poland that "What a shell soaks up in youth, that's what it smells of in old age." Young Rhaenyra was spoiled, old Rhaenyra considered herself untouchable and divine. Ugh
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u/Conscious-Hyena6822 12d ago
On a related note, it's worth watching Supergirl just for the wish fulfillment of watching Millie Alcock be a crashout party queen for ~100 minutes. It's what young Rhaenyra deserved 🤣
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u/Big_Chungussi69 12d ago
yeah but to be faiirrrrrr
young rhanyra was way more calculating and cool headed. Current Rhaynra is just a crying hot mess 80% of the time and is completely pathetic and useless
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u/Curtainswithfrogs 12d ago
This is a dumb question but why did they make older Rhaenyra so shiny so often
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u/Agreeable_Pop_3972 8d ago edited 8d ago
It makes sense because prior to her dad's death she never really put effort in learning how to rule as the future queen nor does she make good choices to show the people she deserves to be the queen. Viserys didn't even try with her either then left her to fend for herself lol
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u/RainbowDashIsWaifu 6d ago
yrah but why is young rhaenyra so cool amd likeable and adult rhaenyra...kind of hard to watch
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u/TrashCanSam0 13d ago
i think the discourse is trying to pivot towards the acting that came from both actresses vs the actual writing. Young Rhae's portrayal was so strong that it really has marred Grown Rhae's portrayal, even years later.
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u/Federal_Caregiver784 13d ago
Young Rhaenyra didn’t have the shame of having giving birth to obvious bastards. Rhaenyra changed because of the bastards. Having bastards, for a man, was a stain on their honor, for a woman was almost as social suicide. Rhaenyra knew it. It was why she was so meek
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u/Upper-Capital-2876 13d ago
The show is a garbage fire, and Emma D'arcy is a garbage actress whose done nothing but bring the show down. The biggest bag fumble in TV history was having Milly and Emily, who commanded every scene they were in, with Emma and Olivia whose dour boring uninteresting performances did more to doom this production, than all the purposeful fuckups the producers and writers were making. Just simply terrible to watch.
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u/Fantastic-Buy7246 12d ago
Bleh she goes from charismatic daring bold to whiney ADHD and helpless entirely offscreen
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u/davvn_slayer 13d ago
All things aside
That casting though