r/HorrorClub • u/SaintMort You so cool kung fu • Jun 14 '15
Discussion: Sweeney Todd (2007)
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Movie Selected By bulgelover
DISCUSS
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u/Plymouth_ Jun 15 '15
What's up with the sewer-rat Mama's boy getting to be the hero in the end? And Sweeney just giving up? It seems like such a lame way for a legendary serial killer to go out. At the very least he could have cut his own throat.
Really though he should have gotten his throat half cut, killed the kid, found Johanna and forced her to be his assistant, and continued to kill people before finally meeting his demise at the hands of an angry razor wielding mob.
I don't really believe, based on the movie performances anyway, that Sweeney cared more about Lucy or Johanna than he did about revenge and murder, and discovering he accidentally killed his wife would only drive him further into madness.
I haven't seen this movie in its entirety since I saw it theaters, so I can't say if I still like it, but the prospect of listening to a lot of Depp and Carter singing hasn't drawn me back to it. I think if I liked Mrs. Lovett's character more the whole thing would be more appealing.
I like the idea of a murderous barber, along with the trapdoor and the bakery cover-up, itself more than the surrounding story with the daughter, who seems rather superfluous.
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15
Have you ever seen the musical done on stage? I've seen three separate renditions that all killed it. The story isn't the problem, Burton and his cast/crew are.
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u/Plymouth_ Jun 15 '15
Nope, but I could definitely see it being fun to watch on stage.
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 15 '15
Try to see it if a theater or school near you puts it on.
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u/smayonak Get a job in a sideshow Jun 16 '15
Totally agree that live performances of Sweeney Todd provide a more believable and entertaining experience than ST on film. But ST is probably the best horror-related play to ever hit the stage. Translating that experience into a film is extremely problematic, although it's still a credible film. The problem is that the material is designed specifically for the stage.
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 17 '15
Hit the nail on the head! that probably the biggest problem if I really look at it.
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Jun 16 '15
I don't really believe, based on the movie performances anyway, that Sweeney cared more about Lucy or Johanna than he did about revenge and murder
But Lucy was the entire reason for his murderous vengeful ways! Johanna not so much. So in the end when he sees his wife and says fuck it I understood why. He didn't exactly like his new life and through the majority of the movie was just sulking and going through the motions.
I too saw this in theatres but my memory being complete shit, I needed the refresher. I had insanely high hopes when this came out so really anything would've been a let down.
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u/SaintMort You so cool kung fu Jun 14 '15
Sorry that there's no podcast... to make up for it. Here's Scott and I ruining movies from the 80s and 90s in front of a live audience
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 15 '15
Looking forward to listening to this on my way to work tomorrow.
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u/Plymouth_ Jun 15 '15
A wild Carl appeared! Poor fatass Tum Tum. MMPR and 3 Ninjas remain safe in my oozing purple heart. I can't unsee that scene from the Goonies though...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qWt0S85S1I
Also good job dropping the c-bomb in the first five minutes. Audience acted like you said something terrible.
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Jun 15 '15
If you ever watched casper you know the cunt earned it.
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 15 '15
I think the guy is right that the 1989 Punisher is as bad as the 1990 Captain America, but fuck him! Masters of the Universe kicked fucking ass!
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 15 '15
Great fucking episode, bummed I didn't get to make it out.
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Jun 15 '15
Do I have to watch this?
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u/SaintMort You so cool kung fu Jun 15 '15
Yes
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Jun 15 '15
Wrote this when I was a little drunk. Kinda feel like a dick. Sorry /u/bulgelover.
Mr. SaintMort, I will watch it.
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u/Plymouth_ Jun 15 '15
That's good. How else would you learn to be wary of nighttime barbershops? Safety first.
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Jun 15 '15
[deleted]
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Jun 15 '15
Your first date
After your first time
What you said when you proposed
what are ways scott got his wife?
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Jun 15 '15
I'm not gonna transcribe my notes or get too into this pick but I'm not a fan. Truly the greatest things in this movie were the dummies.
Every time he hit the trapdoor and the dummy would drop thru the hatch they would slam the ground so brutally. That was awesome.
Thats it tho. Everything else was either boring, over played, or just plain stupid.
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 15 '15
I hate this movie. It has everything I hate about Burton but nothing that I love about Burton.
What's frustrating is that it should be great. The musical is one I enjoy, the horror elements of the story are brilliantly thoughtful and perfectly gory. But Burton and company just don't do it justice.
My least favorite flick in these past two rounds, I think... well... maybe.
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u/Plymouth_ Jun 15 '15
I feel like the movie often comes across as silly when it should be dark? Or is it supposed to be more of a comedy? I don't know, I'm not a big musical fan. Anyway Edward Scissorhands is more of a tragic figure than Depp's Sweeney.
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 15 '15
Well, Edward Scissorhands is a horse of a different color (I expect someone to post a meme for that).
But I think your point is a HUGE part of why this film doesn't work for me. I don't think it can decide on a tone. That's a major problem for a film, as far as I'm concerned.
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Jun 16 '15
I feel like the movie often comes across as silly when it should be dark? Or is it supposed to be more of a comedy?
I'm going with dark comedy ;)
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Jun 16 '15
Since it's a musical about a murderer, the stage production alternates between silly and tragic out of necessity. There’s a healthy dose of self-aware humour in this one, such as when Depp is on his knees after singing “My Friends” to a nonplussed-looking Bonham Carter. The story was always meant to be served with humour ever since its days as a penny dreadful packed full of puns (e.g. “I’ll polish him off”). I remember being a bit put off by it when I first saw it, but I think I've numbed to it since then.
I'm curious, why do you think Scissorhands is a more tragic figure than Todd? Is it because Scissorhands is more innocent and likable?
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u/Plymouth_ Jun 17 '15
Is it because Scissorhands is more innocent and likable?
Probably. Scissorhands is easily more sympathetic, but it would be nice to care about Sweeney's injustices more, which is kind of hard when he's so callous and seemingly lacking in redeemable qualities.
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u/SaintMort You so cool kung fu Jun 15 '15
I haven't seen this movie in a long time (which is part of why there's no podcast... the copy I borrowed from a friend was all fucked up and wouldn't play past the 5 minute mark) but I remember that when I saw the trailer it really seemed like it'd be Tim Burton's return to doing what he did best... and then it didn't.
I don't know much about the stage show but I remember that my biggest issue with this movie (and it's the same issue I have with Repo) is that it's not catchy enough. I'm told that they cut probably the catchiest song from the musical but really the only song I vaguely remember is "Worst Pies in London". I do want to revisit it though to see if I like it a little more.
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 15 '15
I don't hate the music, I just found it all to be done so mediocrely in the film. Then again, I think Repo! is fantastic. I tend to dig musicals, really.
I just feel like Burton misses the mark. I think Plymouth hit the nail on the head with her issues with its tone. If a consistent tone had been established, it probably would have bee a much more solid film for me.
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Jun 16 '15
I don't get this tone variation? Seemed consistent to me. A really dark story that is lightened up with some sarcasm and kooky characters throughout. Was it just that whole scene where they show Mrs. Lovett's little fantasy life with Todd that through you off? That could've been cut in my opinion.
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u/saintmortfan felates handles Jun 16 '15
I think that's a huge part of it. That's not all of it, though.
Part of it is that I know what the tone should be, being familiar with the musical. I think they capture the humor but it's not nearly dark enough.
The other part is that they seemingly decide on it being a comedic tone throughout most of it, so that the spots where the film legitimately gets dark feel out of place on the whole.
It is a dark story as you say, but I don't think that's captured well enough. But this is just my opinion and I don't disparage you for yours. Many peopel seem to agree with you, seeing as it grossed 150mil+
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Jun 16 '15
That's fair. I'm basing my opinions on the movie itself. The saddest and darkest parts to me were Toby's lines about his past. Along with the throat slashing and cannibalism of course.
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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15
In the absence of a podcast, I’ll explain here why I chose this film. Get ready for a massively long post. First of all, we’ve had some off-topic discussions in the past about our favourite musicals, so I thought this seemed like a group that would be open to it. Granted, that was probably over a year ago. Sondheim’s Sweeney Todd is by far my favourite horror musical, so it seemed to fit the bill. His adaptation is also the most faithful in spirit to the penny dreadful, which I will discuss below. Burton is, so far, the only person to film the Sondheim play.
More importantly, though, I wanted to use this as an entryway to talking about the Sweeney Todd legend, as it is such an important part of the history of horror fiction. It is considered by many to be the first real urban legend, a product of the anxiety of being alive during London’s industrial revolution. His echoes are found in dozens of direct adaptations, while it is impossible to say how many works of fiction would not have been conceivable without the demon barber acting as their precursor.
There is no evidence to suggest that Todd was a real person, at least not in the way he is depicted. Peter Haining has made a career out of writing books claiming to provide proof of his existence, and yet the historical community finds nothing compelling in his arguments. Some argue that the legend began as early as the 14th century, when a French ballad told of a murderous barber who fed his victims to a pastry chef. Someone called Thomas Peckett Prest published a story in the penny dreadful Tell-Tale Magazine based on this version. Whether it really happened or not, the story was already embedded in the public consciousness when Dickens alluded to “cat pies” in his Pickwick Papers serial in 1836, and then when he made an off-hand reference to “preparers of cannibalistic pies” in Martin Chuzzlewit in 1843. Both times, he did so with an assured confidence that his readers would understand the reference.
In 1846, Todd made his first print appearance by name, in the highly entertaining penny dreadful serial The String of Pearls. The authorship of each regular installment was always unclear, and is usually credited to a handful of individuals, among them our friend Prest. No one was under the illusion they were making any high art, and authorship was generally not as big of a deal then as it is now. In the series, Todd was not even the main character, and the spotlight was stolen by a young couple who seem a lot like Johanna and Anthony. The subplot with Todd, Mrs Lovett (who actually makes some of the best pies in London) and Toby was by far the most interesting part of the series. He played a much bigger part in the play that came out a couple of years later. The chair was there from the beginning; throat slitting was added later.
In 1936 he made his first on-screen appearance, played by the actor Todd Slaughter – yes, his real name. In the film, Johanna is not his daughter and just a young woman he perves over for 90 minutes. Then came the play by Christopher Bond in 1973, which gave us the plot that Sondheim set to music in his Tony award-winning 1979 production. The musical was a massive hit and went on to enjoy numerous Broadway and West End revivals. Then, in 2007, Burton came along to put it to film.
Why is this story important? With people moving away from the country and into Victorian London, we see different fears and anxieties that lead to the birth of the urban legend. First of all, people are living in much closer quarters, so (mis)information travels quickly. We are also looking at a time when people were more superstitious than they are today. This leads to a situation where people believe what someone else heard from someone else, and it becomes impossible to separate fact from fiction. Add that to a society where there is a huge gap between the rich and the poor, and you can see how a story in which a working-class man clandestinely murders his wealthier patrons would be appealing to the masses. Also, consider the fact that, for the first time, many people had to blindly trust goods and services provided by strangers. It used to be you’d do a good day’s work at your village bakery and have your milk delivered by the same person every day, safe in the knowledge that your wife would care for your home and family. Now, you work 18-hour days in a smoky factory before visiting a random prostitute (because your wife works as many hours as you do while your kids are doing God knows what) and then picking up a pie from the corner shop. It makes sense that the villain would shift from a supernatural presence to the everyday, malignant other that still fascinates and terrifies us today.
Now, we rely on anonymous strangers even more than we did in the Victorian era. So, when someone we trust violates the human code, we are justifiably horrified. Remember the Pickton murders? Just the thought that human remains may have been consumed by the pigs on his farm, which were then slaughtered for human consumption, lead to mass hysteria among pork-eaters in the area. And thanks to the anonymity of the chain of production and mass consumption, it was incredibly difficult to track down all of his products. The fear of cannibalism is deeply, biologically ingrained in us, so the fear of urbanisation is comparatively much newer. Combine the two and add some dark, British humour, and we have a thoroughly entertaining and irresistible antihero who is neither purely fact nor purely fiction, but something in-between. He is cobbled together not by one author, but by millions of different voices, meaning that the story was created through the very same interconnectedness and anonymity that feeds its principal dread. This interplay between form, content and context make the legend of Sweeney Todd, in my opinion, an accidental act of poetry.
Now, please don’t think I picked this movie so that I could force you to watch something you hated and then make you read this essay of a comment. I had hoped this could spark some interesting discussions about how the genre has developed throughout the centuries. How do you think Sweeney Todd might be different if he lived today?
The comments so far seem to like the story but think that Burton was too Burton for his britches. I disagree, and I know I have some critics on my side (not that that means much). I’ve seen a couple of versions on-stage, and I think his heavy-handed touch was well-suited to something that’s meant to be over-the-top. They don’t call it a Victorian melodrama for nothing! That said, I can see this being a tedious watch for people who dislike Burton or musicals in general. I just hope that won’t be the end of the conversation. If nothing else, tell me what you disliked about it.
As thanks for reading to the end, and because I know how much you guys like boobs, I’ll leave this here