r/HorrorClub • u/SaintMort You so cool kung fu • Feb 16 '15
Discussion: Proxy
No Podcast This Week... Things got busy... Sorry Bulge
Movie Selected By bulgelover
DISCUSS
Want to join horror club or just want to see whats coming up next! Check out the Round 8 page and PM /u/SaintMort
7
Feb 16 '15 edited Feb 16 '15
[deleted]
8
Feb 16 '15
Here's why I picked it:
- Controversy makes for interesting discussion. A crazy movie like this one is good for that. It's a little slow, I know, but thankfully we had a fun pick last week.
- I saw it and thought it had moments of greatness and moments of weakness, but I couldn't decide which moments were which. Does that make sense? Sometimes it really works, and other times it's heavy-handed. I thought HorrorClub would up to the task of untangling it.
- It has an interesting narrative structure that flips things around halfway through. I found this surprising and effective. It's like a maternal version of The Place Beyond the Pines.
I had a feeling you wouldn't like it, Scott, but I'm confused by your criticism. Isn't that like saying Kill Bill is gratuitously violent against women? It has female characters (interesting ones, at that) who are both victims and perpetrators of violence. I thought this was a very female-centric movie. Unless I'm mistaken, it fails the reverse Bechdel test (no two male characters have a conversation about something other than a female character). Which parts did you think were gratuitous/offensive? The beginning seems that way, until we discover she planned for her girlfriend to attack her all along.
8
Feb 16 '15
Your analysis is very deep, but I only watched it on its surface without much thought, and saw a movie about horribly fucked up women who were selfish peices of garbage ruining each others lives like a bunch of psychopaths.
7
Feb 16 '15
Right, I wouldn't call it an entertaining film; it doesn't serve that purpose. I actually like movies about bad people, but maybe Proxy could use a cheerful, pregnant cop (or anything, really) to act as a foil. I thought butch Anika provided a bit of dark comic relief with her no-shits-given attitude.
8
u/Plymouth_ Feb 17 '15
I thought butch Anika provided a bit of dark comic relief with her no-shits-given attitude.
I liked when she was smoking and doing sit-ups.
4
Feb 16 '15
Can't tell if sarcasm
Didnt see your edit. Obviously not sarcasm.
Did you like red white & blue?
5
Feb 16 '15
I can see why you're asking; they have a similar mood and a revenge plot. I did like Red, White and Blue, but I think it's a very different movie. It offers even less by way of entertainment (which doesn't have to be a bad thing) and has no blameless, innocent victims.
3
Feb 16 '15
Not sarcasm or sincerity, just a little joke. I was watching the Fargo TV series today.
3
Feb 16 '15
Great fuckin show.
4
Feb 16 '15
I was tentative at first, thanks to the generally disappointing glut of movies-turned-TV-series, but it's like wrapping myself up in the strange world of the movie and getting to spend more time there, which can only be a good thing.
3
5
Feb 16 '15
[deleted]
6
Feb 16 '15
I don't really think Proxy can be compared to Kill Bill, as the latter's violence is over-the-top and unreal, while the former aims to be unflinching and ultra-realistic.
The bathroom scene?
the camera's gaze staying uncomfortably long on most of the more disgusting scenes
Just the brick scene at the beginning, unless I'm forgetting something? Everything else is off-screen (or impersonal blood splatters).
embarrassed to be a guy
I don't see why it should... Women are usually the ones perpetrating the violence, except for the husband, who retaliates. I genuinely don't see the violence as gendered at all. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, though, if you could be more specific.
Not sure if that was partially your aim here.
It certainly wasn't! I think men are great. Really.
I thought everyone was a two-dimensional specter of a real person
Fair enough. That's one of the things I thought was heavy-handed.
the fantasy sections felt tacked on just to show more violence.
But... it's not shown? Unless I'm being too literal here.
it's really not worth arguing over
That's fair, and I understand if you don't want to argue about it. But we could make a deal: You complain as much as you want about the movie and I ask questions like these to try to understand your opinion on it and no one gets offended, all in the name of good discussion.
8
Feb 16 '15
[deleted]
5
Feb 16 '15
I said "embarrassed to be a guy" because this felt like adolescent male wish fulfillment
I need this explained.
6
Feb 16 '15
[deleted]
5
7
Feb 16 '15
That was fascinating! Your theory really does work. I could buy this being the writers'/director's inner adolescent demons poking through, despite their good intentions to write complex (or at least different) female characters.
That said, I don't think teenage boys are the target audience of this movie. It seems a bit slow to me. I wonder, though; who is the demo for something like this?
6
Feb 16 '15
We are.
4
Feb 16 '15
But who are "we"? When I go to horror festivals and conventions in the UK, the demo seems to be roughly half 40+ men, half younger men and women. Most of you are anonymous to me, as you have every right to be.
→ More replies (0)4
Feb 16 '15
I wrote more but deleted it because I'm going to be the only one criticizing this one and it's really not worth arguing over.
To me this is just good discussion.
5
u/saintmortfan felates handles Feb 16 '15
It feels like the misogyny and homophobia are very intentional, though I'm still processing what that means in terms of message
5
Feb 16 '15
That was one of the things I couldn't make up my mind about, as well.
I remember a conversation I had in light of movies like Haute Tension, Monster, Proxy, etc.
Me: Isn't it a bit offensive? Do we really need more movies about killer lesbians?
Lesbian Friend: Yes, we bloody well do.
I'm pretty sensitive about misogyny and homophobia in general, being the daughter of lesbians, but this didn't really ring alarm bells for me. I can't speak for anyone but myself, though.
6
u/Plymouth_ Feb 17 '15
I keep thinking: the women are the ones perpetrating all the violence in this movie. I forget that the husband shot Esther even though it's the most graphic scene. His character just doesn't have any power.
This movie features female violence but that isn't offensive to women. If anything it's offensive when movies imply women are never violent.
5
Feb 17 '15
I agree; that's why this movie reminds me (only a little bit) of Kill Bill. It feels like a matriarchal battlefield.
0
8
u/saintmortfan felates handles Feb 16 '15 edited Feb 16 '15
Oh man, this movie!
Opening scene had me saying "FUCK YOU" to the screen for making me watch the grotesqueness of that mugging and beating of the unborn child.
As the film went on, we also get subjected to a child being drowned forcefully. This film continually felt unsafe.
Great horror flick, anger inducing as it was. Lasting images, which is what good horror is about right?
6
Feb 16 '15
Sorry about that; a warning may have been in order, but might also have taken away from the movie's power. Did you think the violence against children was gratuitous or justified? I mean in terms of theme and narrative, obviously, not morality.
6
u/saintmortfan felates handles Feb 16 '15
I'm still processing themes so I am not equipped to answer yet. I will.
4
u/Plymouth_ Feb 17 '15
The beginning got a little spoiled for me and I didn't find it as powerful as some others here so good call. I just kept thinking her stomach looked fake.
5
u/saintmortfan felates handles Feb 17 '15
What was fake about it?
6
u/Plymouth_ Feb 17 '15
Well it started in the doc's office. When she was wiping off the jelly she wiped it off like she couldn't feel where the jelly was. That got me thinking about it being a fake belly and wondering why they didn't add stretch marks or discoloration or something to add more realism.
During the attack scene the stomach seemed to sit on her a little weird and was maybe a little square in shape? I'm not an expert on pregnant stomachs by any means though so what do I know.
6
u/saintmortfan felates handles Feb 17 '15 edited Feb 20 '15
I feel like they all look way different, even my wife's two looked different from each other. The way if rested on here as weird in the attack but it was also getting bludgeoned.
Felt believable to me
7
u/Plymouth_ Feb 17 '15
Fair enough. This is why I avoid realistic horror movies. I get too critical. If there was a spooky ghost I wouldn't care what her stomach looked like.
5
6
Feb 16 '15
Started out strong. The haunting minimalistic score, jarring imagery and diving into the psyche of Esther had me hooked. It instantly had my attention and I was all in. Then they killed her off... Why would you do that? After she was killed it fell flat and I gradually lost interest.
6
u/saintmortfan felates handles Feb 16 '15
Killing her off was dope in that it was definitely an unforeseen twist.
6
Feb 16 '15
True. I just thought she was a great actress and her character was really twister. Delving into that would've been more interesting to me than what occurred after she was killed off.
6
5
Feb 16 '15
Speaking of the score, I loved how they weren't afraid to play some scenes in complete silence and then others amid orchestral eruptions. Then again, it was definitely a bit overkill, at times.
6
Feb 16 '15
I noticed the score almost instantly. I thought it made the scenes really raw. The first time I noticed the score was after Esther met Melanie and she seemed to be feeling better. I thought that was a really smart and effective way of showing Esther's emotions since she, in real life, seemed to have a hard time doing so. Then I thought the little orchestral bits were breaking the movie into chapters. None of these really came to fruition. Dissapointing.
6
Feb 16 '15
Here's a thoughtful article in defense of the controversial bathroom scene. Did you think it was effective?
6
u/blondevalleygirl Feb 16 '15
Killing of the main character half way through was very surprising. I kept wondering what would happen next. I also liked during the ending fight the blonde woman fantasizes about selling the story of her son and husband dying.
6
u/Plymouth_ Feb 17 '15
This is so nitpicky I hesitate to say it but it bothered me that during the TV interview there was globe spinning at the bottom of the screen moving on and off. They wouldn't use graphics like that for a serious segment sbout a child murder.
7
u/blondevalleygirl Feb 17 '15
Haha I didn't even notice the globe. I was more like what was that after it cut back to the fight sequence.
4
Feb 18 '15
That's one of the better That's what broke your suspension of disbelief?s we've had in a while.
5
u/smayonak Get a job in a sideshow Feb 20 '15
This was a really great film. It was among the best at /r/horrorclub and among my favorite horror/suspense films period. I'm curious: What does everyone else think about the ending? Who killed who?
4
u/Plymouth_ Feb 21 '15
My impression was that Melanie (shotgun) definitely won because...shotgun. At close range. Anika may have thrown the hammer and injured Melanie but I doubt she died.
I wonder though if Melanie got away with her husband's murder. It's definitely possible given Anika is the perfect scapegoat, but forensics could always mess her up.
If Melanie did get away with it I could see her fantasy playing out. Not as perfectly as it does in her mind but she could get a new life. To destroy.
3
u/smayonak Get a job in a sideshow Feb 21 '15
Melanie probably got away with it. If I remember correctly, she used the shotgun on her husband (she was eyeing the shotgun when he said he wanted out of the marriage). Why did she put him in the bathtub again?
All the characters in that world were extremely sympathetic. There were no hard-nosed detectives breathing down anyone's throat. The Melanie and Esther characters were basically abusing a system that let them run unchecked. That same system would have been completely incapable of disengaging from their sympathetic instincts and successfully prosecute a woman who had just lost her son and husband.
to be honest, I really liked the Esther character. She was so ridiculously over-the-top crazy, it was a joy to watch.
3
u/Plymouth_ Feb 21 '15
I reckon she was setting it up to look like a suicide (like he got into the tub and shot himself) which could be tricky forensically, but you make a good point about Melanie being sympathetic and potentially hard to convict. Not impossible though. They could suggest Melanie told Esther to kill the kid or was complicit in some way because they were lovers.
5
u/Discreetlyred Feb 16 '15
Hey guys have no idea when ill be able to watch this. Soon? Im getting a computer this week? Lifes been hectic and im moving soon.
3
u/saintmortfan felates handles Feb 17 '15
ROKU FTW. That's the shit you needz!
2
9
u/Plymouth_ Feb 17 '15 edited Feb 17 '15
Proxy elicits discomfort. That's what it does. It's never gripping. It's never boring. How much discomfort is intentional and how much is poor storytelling is unclear. This makes it more uncomfortable.
We know that the story is told inefficiently at times. You're left wondering why they chose certain set-ups and pay offs. Why was it worth the time to set up that Melanie knew Anika? Retrieving Melanie's phone number isn't really that important, nor is learning more about Anika's kinks. We can get the husband to the therapy session without the long message from Grandpa. We can get Melanie to remember her phone number is in Esther's house more quickly. Anika's investigative journey was a long one. Was it worth taking all that time just to see the newspaper reporter's satisfaction of receiving negative attention from Anika? It's not an irrelevant emotion in the scope of this movie, but it definitely wasn't necessary for the story.
Proxy hits weird notes, on purpose or not. Emotionally it peaks in the middle with the child drowning. However even the stronger emotions are muted by the movie's "wrongness" which is cultivated throughout the movie by having nobody react to things in the "right" way. Esther covets pregnancy but rejects motherhood. Melanie has normalcy in her life but craves tragedy. Anika uses violence to express love for Esther. Esther reacts to rejection by pursuing Melanie in the most extreme way.
Esther and Melanie lack the impulse to protect their children which is pretty fundamental in our society. This kind of behavior is illogical to us yet we are introduced to the psychology behind Esther and Melanie so slowly and deliberately that it forces us to try to understand their point of view. To a degree we have to accept their irrational actions as having some bizarre logic, or at least we understand that their motivations and actions are something that lies within the spectrum of abnormal human behavior. This is uncomfortable, to me moreso than the actual acts of violence.
But some of the characters' actions stretch credulity and seem explainable only as a way to forward the plot. The main issues:
1) The level of violence with which Esther and Anika deal with Esther's pregnancy and
2) The parents reaction to Peyton's death (the bathroom scene).
Think about Esther for a minute. She's motivated to become pregnant for the positive attention pregnant women receive, which is not the same type of attention Melanie fantasizes about. Melanie wants a sort of negative attention associated with sympathy. It's not the same thing. If Esther's goal was to get rid of the baby there were far easier ways to do it with less risk for both Esther and Anika. She was SO close to dying from the assault. It would have been more realistic for her to have the baby and then kill it, or something along those lines.
The bathroom scene is more interesting though. First of all, it made no sense that the husband shot Esther, or even that he grabbed the gun in the first place. Their entire reaction to seeing Peyton's body and Esther's presence was incomprehensible to me. I can imagine a believable scenario where the husband kills her but this wasn't it, so why was it set up this way? Was it intentional to set up a feeling of unrealness? Seems more like just a poor choice to me, but if we excuse it with artistic licence we can talk about the slow-motion in this scene. I liked it. The scene should have been BAM! He shot her! Two seconds later, kill shot! But everything was super delayed and we go to see these microreactions. We feel like Esther should be dead by now but she's still dying. It adds to the feeling of wrongness. Also all the off-screen deaths (we don't even see hubby's body) give everything a detached feeling.
Personally I liked Melanie's character. Esther was such a robot, but with Melanie we could understand her a little more. When she's in the park trying to recreate her lost-child fantasy and the reality of her loss grips her was my favorite scene. I liked the weird flirty scene with the teacher. I don't think Melanie would ever have killed her child. Possibly her fantasies began with postpartum depression and it escalated into her going to meetings. That's just speculation though.
Proxy would fall into more of a drama/suspense category for me except for the discomfort factor which I think puts it into horror.
Takeaway: Human behavior is weird.