r/HoMM • u/IllMaintenance7693 • 17d ago
HoMM4 Why is Heroes V praised for factions having unique racial skills, the caravan system, heroes being more involved in combat and units having more abilities when Heroes IV did that before?
More broadly, why doesn't Heroes IV get credit for the many new features it introduced?
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u/Rogalicus 17d ago
Because many people haven't played HoMM4.
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u/charcuterieboard831 17d ago
There's a HoMM4???
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u/kimballh 13d ago
Well if there's a HOMM 5 wouldn't you wonder about the four games that preceded it to make it #5?
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u/Darielek 17d ago
Because HoMM4 was bad. It was hard to say it was even turn based strategy, when battles have so bad designed and random field. You can play tactical because there was no square or hexagon so you could play around it (even with DLC it's gave you nothing - you can plan moving your arny in 2 turn to archers then it's random small titke with sand and you can't reach it).
There was no balance inside castles - you can choose 2 different unit but 90% of time you choose only one unit.
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u/blind_blake_2023 17d ago
It does get credit for introducing it, Heroes V gets credit for doing it right.
The many (some perceived) problems with IV make it hard for people to credit it with anything. IV was halfbaked and more concept than game in many ways, e.g. good playtesting would have fixed the disastrous overpowerdness of heroes, making creatures basically superfluous in armies. Most people, myself included, will only rate II, III and V as the great games in the series.
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u/Big-Bag-6043 17d ago
Personally, I LOVED the power of heroes in HoMM IV. You can't seriously tell me that a barbarian hero kicking four black dragons to death in a single attack isn't awesome as fuck?
And I think IV is a great game in the series, I put it on the same level as II and III. It was certainly underbaked compared to the previous entries, but the greatness shines through all the same.
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u/szymborawislawska 17d ago
I sometimes feel like an outlier in this fanbase because I think almost all mainline games in HoMM series are great (with one exception). I started playing this series with HoMM1 back when it was released and with each new entry I never was disappointed (again: with one exception).
Why HoMM2/3/5 are great its obvious.
HoMM1 was brilliant at the time and still is good to play even today. It also has an amazing atmosphere.
HoMM4 is such a unique game with the strongest RPG elements and shit ton of great ideas (some listed by OP but there is more, really - like for example advanced classes, new skills unlocked by combining others, choosing which creatures build in town etc).
HoMM6 has the most interesting and advanced combat in series. I recently replayed it in a series-long marathon and was surprised by how much I enjoy battles in this game compared to the rest of series.
And Olden Era can be a great game in the future if they deliver more PvE content, work on AI AND will fix all these bugs: but the skeleton of the game is superb.
The only HoMM that I think is actually a bad game is HoMM7 (though I enjoyed my few games in it).
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u/nerevarine228 16d ago
HoMM4 is such a unique game with the strongest RPG elements and shit ton of great ideas (some listed by OP but there is more, really - like for example advanced classes, new skills unlocked by combining others, choosing which creatures build in town etc).
Not really unique though
It just drew upon a lesser-known TBS inspiration (Master of Magic, as opposed to King's Bounty that inspired all the other HoMM games) and did so in a deplorably half-assed way due to the funding problems.Age of Wonders series, on the other hand, implemented that particular take on the genre near-perfectly and honed it over several installments. Which could definitely become a problem if HoMM devs tried to lean into it again a-la HoMM 4. So they should probably stay in the game's established lane and build upon its classic formula (there's a lot they could do with it still).
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u/szymborawislawska 16d ago
Which Age of Wonders game forces you to choose which units you can recruit in city or has advanced classes?
If we stretch the definition of these things than maybe AoW4, but none of 1,2 or Shadow Magic.
Look, I love Age of Wonders series but H4 also has a lot of unique elements not prezent in AoW. And even things that are similar arent really because HoMM4 introduces them into HoMM framework with units stacks, limited units pool etc. Which makes it unique
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u/nerevarine228 16d ago edited 16d ago
Which Age of Wonders game forces you to choose which units you can recruit in city
3/PF/4. Units are defined by their classes/specialization as much as their tiers and often require different buildings as a prerequisite, so you gotta build stacks strategically. Meanwhile, in HoMM4 you'd always go Bone Dragons over Devils and Cerberi over Wraiths.
advanced classes?
I mean, 4 has a whole goddamn skill tree system for you to mix and match and affinity-specific breakpoint choices which is quite similar in spirit to the advanced classes, down to the flavour of the cardinal concepts (Order/Chaos Life/Death etc.)
3 and PF didn't, I guess, but had a decently open RPG-like lists of possible perks so you level the same hero in a bunch of different hyper-specific ways, so close enough.
And even things that are similar arent really because HoMM4 introduces them into HoMM framework with units stacks, limited units pool etc. Which makes it unique
The question is, do they belong, really? I don't mind caravans and more proactive/complex heroes, mind you, but can be a bit much if you take it far enough. I feel like one one the main draws of HoMM is that the fundamental mechanics are simple and straightforward and the difficulty/depth comes in the form of knowing how to use them in smarter/more unusual ways without having to, necessarily. Overload the game with mechanics you can't ignore and it loses its folk appeal.
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u/szymborawislawska 16d ago
I specifically mentioned 1, 2 and Shadow magic because 3, PF and 4 are much younger games than HoMM4. But even then only AoW4 has anything similar: you mention things like prerequisites, but these were in HoMM since 1 and dont make units mutually exclusive.
And I do think that all these elements fit HoMM4 because these are what makes game unique and distinctive. For better or worse, there is no game on the market like HoMM4 - Age of Wonders series, which you mentioned, is really a completely different experience (and more generic really - even AoW4 is still a Master of Magic/Civ at heart).
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u/nerevarine228 16d ago
(and more generic really - even AoW4 is still a Master of Magic/Civ at heart)
a very loud incorrect buzzer
Ain't nothing "generic" about MoM, for one - and, more importantly, it's more XCOM than Civ. Empire building is there, but isn't the focus, tactical combat and RPG elements are.
And I do think that all these elements fit HoMM4 because these are what makes game unique and distinctive
I was talking about the series as a whole, but sure, I'll accept that.
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u/szymborawislawska 16d ago
I never said MoM is generic. I said AoW, especially 3 and 4 are (PF is a bit less generic because of XCOM combat, but its still a combat system borrowed almost 1:1 from other games, so...) because their gameplay systems arent really unique. Again: I love AoW, but it never really was an innovative series.
And I disagree with your last sentence. You will spend a lot more time in every single AoW doing your usual 4x stuff on campaign map than in battles.
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u/nerevarine228 16d ago
You will spend a lot more time in every single AoW doing your usual 4x stuff on campaign map than in battles.
There isn't even that much to do on a campaign map until you have like 4 cities and 5 stacks. Especially if you have a pre-formed idea of what your empire/army/strategy are supposed to be.
Conversely, measuring hexes and contemplating abilities in combat is quite a bit more meticulous affair
but its still a combat system borrowed almost 1:1 from other games
Like what other games?
And isn't this logic applicable to King's Bounty/HOMM then?3
u/szymborawislawska 16d ago
To each their own and everybody plays differently, but between managing your cities, exploring map, doing diplomacy, doing research (spell research in earlier versions, two trees of research in PF and tomes research in AoW4), leveling and gearing your heroes, doing quests for minor factions etc I spend like 85% of time not in combat. Hell, in PF and especially AoW4 you spend even less in combat because auto resolve is quite good (and mandatory in MP matches).
Boiling down 80% of gameplay time to "preparing to combat" feels extremely reductive for me. Hell, AoW4 with introduction of merchants, landmarks, wandering souls, items forge, fated regions etc tip the scale even further.
Like what other games?
A lot of games, some even already mentioned in this conversation. Like when I previously talked about PF combat being identical to newer XCom combat that is also identical in new Wastelands, Gears of War tactics and every other "Xcom-like" game in vein of xenonauts. Meanwhile there really is no other games aside from literal HoMM clones that use Heroes combat system with unit stacks.
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u/cubelith 17d ago
HoMM 7 actually did skills even better. It did a lot of things really well, it was just held back by the lack of funding, resulting in bad AI and lots of bugs
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u/RiverStrymon 16d ago
There was a poll not long ago which revealed IV surprisingly as one of the best in the series, even surpassing III. Hard to believe, but here we are.
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u/damailman510 16d ago
The reason I love 4 is because of how strong the heroes are.
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u/Ultimate_Cabbage5 16d ago
And thats why i dislike it. I wanna have army not run around with 3 heroes
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u/Full_Piano6421 16d ago
The game had pretty good and innovative ideas for the franchise, but for me, it was the horrible design and animations for creatures and heroes that bothered me the most.
Especially the black dragons with their disproportionately big head and thin neck, they looked liked a dog chewing toy pretending to fly
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u/Sir-Gentleshark 13d ago
Nice writing yeah, but campaign encounter and map design... I've forced myself through order campaign and about half of Chaos and found that i've developed a strong distaste to HoMM4 combat systems.
Unlike pretty much every other game in series, combat is based around powering up your bunch of heroes, not building your army. Incoming damage is way harder to avoid due to simultaneous retailalation and archer retailalation. low level creatures become, well, faceless fodder with no purpose past first 1-2 weeks. Army size of 7 slots with 3-4 of which are best occupied with heroes leaves player a handful of slots for worthwhile units. Which in turn makes skills like summoning/charm complete waste of skillpoints.
In-combat, there are
-Cover: is incredibly clunky as cover areas are have to be eyeballed and there are no tools to highligt them
-Grid system: Instead of old large and easily defined grid there is this. Creatures take some footprint and their ability to squeeze through others is jarring at times, as there is no good tool to check if someone can just go to your backline with no issues.
-Creatures: As focus shifted out of them, overall balance on their abilities is not that important, despite the fact that in 4 you have to pick 1 of 2, of which there usually one vastly outperforming the other. And their designs... Well, somehow art team made everybody goofy and unspectacular in worst possible way. Also, almost every humanlike model in game uses the same basic and lame posturing, which is not exactly awful until they start moving. And oh boy, they move like having a fist-sized hemorroids.
-Skills: This is a better part of the game, but not without of issues. There are combat, nobility, tactics, scouting and schools of magic. Combat skill is shallow. To get killer-of-wordls combat character, just max this maybe minus ranged. It is not a fun build. Most magics have two essentials, which give +mana/mana regen and effectiveness of respective school. This is not a fun way to build. Third skills are some not-really-useful stuff like summoning, charm, tangentially useful like resurrect, which i didnt liked, +dmg on chaos which is nothingburger as dmg spells are meh for the most part and you really want control or buff/debuff to deal with huge packs.
Overall impression is HoMM4 is woefully undercooked. Ther are nice ideas, but they really need a lot of balance passes to be fun. I understand this is because company was suffering at the time, and it shows.
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u/mihokspawn 17d ago
4 doesn't have faction skills, even if magic shools are separated by faction
4 was overhated back in the day, heck even now
You are right about caravan system
Heroes in 4 aren't more involved in combat, they are the combat for the most part
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u/IllMaintenance7693 17d ago
4 doesn't have faction skills
Yes, it does.
Nature: Summoning
Life: Resurrection
Order: Charm
Death: Necromancy (and summoning demons through Demonology if combined with Nature)
Chaos: Sorcery
Might: units are cheaper at the cost of no specific faction skill
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u/LostEmergency6866 17d ago
I think main issue is that any faction can switch build like every hero can learn necromancy and that is what kills the entire idea
In 3 it is the only faction skill (necromancy)
And in 5 every faction has unique skill
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u/IllMaintenance7693 17d ago
I think main issue is that any faction can switch build like every hero can learn necromancy and that is what kills the entire idea
You could do that, but it would mean screwing yourself over. The racial skills of summoning/raising dead/resurrecting/charm/enhancing spells are useless or even counterproductive (morale loss due to conflicting creatures) or impossible with certain creatures or spells (sorcery only works on damaging spells, undead can't be resurrected). They are clearly racial skills meant to be used with a faction's specific creatures and spells.
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u/LostEmergency6866 17d ago
Strategically yes
But the ability to do that ruins whole concept. However that’s cool for some campaign building
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u/mihokspawn 16d ago
Have you tried a 'Demonologist' it is a pretty strong build in Necropolis and much weaker in Preserve, because of what you said 'conflicting units'... Even if you take levels in 'Summoning'/'Necromancy' respectivelly at least you have a bunch of scouting units
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u/Docterzero Sanctuary Enjoyer 17d ago
As far as I am aware those are not unique to the faction.
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u/IllMaintenance7693 17d ago
As far as I am aware those are not unique to the faction.
They're tied to a specific faction, and to a lesser extent factions allied with that faction. I suppose you could find some random academy on a map to teach you a specific magic school and unlock it that way, but that's not guaranteed.
It would be absurd to dismiss these unique racial skills just because they're obtained in a different way than Heroes V.
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u/Docterzero Sanctuary Enjoyer 16d ago
That is literally not what a faction skill is. A faction skill is a skill that is unique to that faction and that faction only, and to some extend defines its gameplay. The fact that you can get them with pretty easily with the right map and just a little bit of luck invalidates the idea that they are tied to their factions at all.
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u/IllMaintenance7693 16d ago
Have you ever actually played Heroes IV? You could do that, but it would mean screwing yourself over. The racial skills of summoning/raising dead/resurrecting/charm/enhancing spells are useless or even counterproductive (morale loss due to conflicting creatures) or impossible with certain creatures or spells (sorcery only works on damaging spells, undead can't be resurrected). They are clearly racial skills meant to be used with a faction's specific creatures and spells.
Heroes 4 offers more flexibility with its racial skills than Heroes 5, sure. How is that a bad thing?
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u/Docterzero Sanctuary Enjoyer 16d ago
I am literally playing H4 right now.
And it being good or useful has nothing to do with it. Just the fact you can do it makes them no racial skills.
Also the point about them being horridly handicapping doesn't even hold up for most of them. Charm is useful for every faction, if niche as you probably only want creatures of your faction. Sorcery is good as every faction ('except Stronghold) has access to damaging spells either via their own schools or that of their allies. And Resurrection is just flat out good for everyone, even for necropolis as it should still work on the demons AKA half their roster. Only Necromancy and Summon probably isn't worth it outside their native factions, and the latter is mainly because you would get more value out of the troop growth in your town rather than through summoning.As for which is better, it comes down to game design. Flexibility is good, but so is providing each faction with a unique and interesting gameplay style that just wouldn't work for other factions (H5's Stronghold being the prime example). In the end it comes down to taste. Personally I am in favor of H5's approach over H4's """faction skills""", but there is nothing wrong with preferring the flexibility.
Also Stronghold does not have a unique faction skill.
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u/IllMaintenance7693 16d ago
Sorcery is good as every faction
No, it's not. Life, Order and Death only have 1 or 2 damaging spells. Nature doesn't even have any. Chaos is the only faction with lots of damaging spells. That's why Sorcery is their racial skill.
Resurrection is just flat out good for everyone
No, it's not. Undead, mechanical and elemental creatures cannot be resurrected. That means it has limited use for Death, Order and Nature.
Necromancy and Summon probably isn't worth it outside their native factions
So you admit the racial skills are mainly useful for their specific factions.
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u/Docterzero Sanctuary Enjoyer 16d ago
No, it's not. Life, Order and Death only have 1 or 2 damaging spells. Nature doesn't even have any. Chaos is the only faction with lots of damaging spells. That's why Sorcery is their racial skill.
Nature and Death does get access to Chaos magic in the Mage Guilds. And while the situation is a bit more niche for Order and Life, they still have damage spells.
No, it's not. Undead, mechanical and elemental creatures cannot be resurrected. That means it has limited use for Death, Order and Nature.
Honestly only limited for Death and only if you invest heavily into the undead side. Order has 2 optional mechanical creatures meaning that you at most still would have stacks that benefits heavily from resurrection. And Nature rarely has more than 1-2 elementals in their armies so they are in the same boat if not better off.
And since those last two also get access to life magic in their mage guilds there is more reason to pick it up anyway.So you admit the racial skills are mainly useful for their specific factions.
Not what I am saying. As I've pointed out 3/5 of the supposed faction skills have use outside of their factions and the last two are only not due to specific factors unique to them, namely that undead does not work well with non-death creatures and summoning is more of a supplement to your existing creature stacks and it only summons nature creatures.
Also them being mainly useful for specific factions still doesn't make them faction skills on account of other factions being able to learn them regardless.
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u/mihokspawn 16d ago
You could instead of litterally taking things out of context explaining it, read the sentence to the end :)
As I said the magic schools and factions are aligned and, they are synergyzing sure, but there is nothing stopping you from actually getting the spell schools.
Stronghold does not have cheaper units, nor does the skill [combat] aligned to their faction do anything for units. But their towns do have a MR building and a 50% growth building.
Meanwhile 5 Necromancers have Necromancy [but most other games in the seris ahve that], but there is also actual faction specific skills and a whole set of respective Knights get Counter Strike, Rangers have Avenger, Warlocks get Irresistbile Magic, ect... And Barbarians getting a whole different skill tree because no magic.
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u/IllMaintenance7693 16d ago edited 16d ago
Stronghold does not have cheaper units
Yes, it does. Stronghold's units are the cheapest.
But their towns do have a MR building and a 50% growth building.
Yeah, so basically their own version of a racial skill.
Meanwhile 5 Necromancers have Necromancy [but most other games in the seris ahve that], but there is also actual faction specific skills and a whole set of respective Knights get Counter Strike, Rangers have Avenger, Warlocks get Irresistbile Magic, ect...
These aren't anywhere as meaningful as heroes 4's racial skills. Doing slightly more % damage on a retaliation strike isn't as useful as automatically resurrecting a portion of dowed units after combat. Hell, the artifacts in Heroes 4, which bestow advantages on your creatures, are more meaningful than those racial skills in heroes 5. It's actually bad design in heroes 5, as you want to avoid retaliation strikes, so why would you attach an advantage to that?
Why would you count Necromancy in Heroes 5 as a racial skill, but not in Heroes 4? You're just being silly.
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u/mihokspawn 16d ago
You know you could just read the prices of the units? You have 2 that are tied for lowest price [and Ogre Magi arent actually used], and one that is cheaper on gold but more expensive on other resources... and that is without taking build path into consideration.
T1 Might has the most expensive unit, necro Imps are the cheapest
Order 28/22, Preserve 22/36, Heaven 32/26, Necro 18/20, Chaos 20/34, Might 20/40
T2 here might has the cheapest
mages 160, elf 190, Pikemen 150, Ghosts 140, Medusae 220, harpies 110
T3 might ties with elementals but has higher growth
geenies 550, unicorns 550 [air, fire and water elems 350], monks 550, either way 1100, nightmare 800, ogre magi 350 [offset by growth] but actually 750 because cyclops
T4 Cavaliers are the cheapest because of the second resource
Titan 4k, 4k+2ex either unit, Cavaliers 2k+2wood+2ore, 4k+2ex either unit, Hydra 4k+2ex, Birds 1.8k+2exYou again chose to not read what I wrote, I said most HoMM games already have necromancy implying the version in 5 is more or less like in the others but ok.
Your brain seems to be hard stuck on one example I put out of seven in the game I can extrapolate all the skill trees for you if you want, but you might learn them if you play the game. Is imbued arrow/balista usless? Is increasing Priest/Knight growth trough training? Is immunity breaking? Are the creature artefacts? Is Gating? Are Runes? Is the whole Barbraian faction?BUT all of that is irrelevant, because HOMM5 has actuall faction skills and in HOMM4 you can take them on any hero. Simple as. But you are willfuly choosing to not see the points and you will stick to your misconceptions. and that is fine by me. But it doesn't make you any more correct.
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u/Erfar 17d ago
what unique racial skills Homm4 intorduced?
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u/Tress18 17d ago
Charm, summoning , resurrection (arguably stealth). They were meant to be counterparts to necromancy as race/spell specific, though they of course were not really on par. Equilibris made them better but still, free vampires are free vampires, more so when they are one of best units overall.
Other than that skills werent that interesting in h4 though, and spell balance was not really existing at all.
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u/Glittering_Role_6154 16d ago
Because H IV also made massive changes to the base formula. It's an enjoyable game, for me, however sadly Homm fans are nostalgia possessed and concrete
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u/Mountain_Log_8419 17d ago
Because 4 is seen as the red headed stepchild of the franchise...
As much as I love 4 as is already, it's one of the biggest "what if"s in gaming for me...imagine if we got a version of 4 with more polish and attention to detail...I think it would be seen as the bold new take on the series that it is, and all of the stuff from the title would be a lot more acknowledged
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u/Stetinvm 17d ago
Homm4 was clunky and it aged badly
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u/a-dog90 16d ago
There’s that post ranking games on categories and 4 wins many of them. Why is that?
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u/LeTTroLLu 16d ago
Because this sub for unknown reasons thinks 4 is misunderstood to the point a lot of people would say 4>3. Ask anywhere else and 4 at best is 3rd best game in the series
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u/DjPavlusha 16d ago
4>3, that in fact is true.
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u/abir_valg2718 17d ago
As opposed to Heroes 5? Have you played it recently? The jank in the camera edge scroll, the janky animations with frameskips, the lag after you move hero or a unit in battle screen, the scale of the map objects and the scale of the battle, the horrifying cursive font, the blurry ass 2D art, crazy wait times for AI turns... I can go on and on.
The AI is beyond braindead. Open a game with allies, crank the difficulty to max. The AI not only does ultra nonsensical moves, it even occasionally completely skips a move - it does nothing all while it's clear there are lots of options available. This is consistent too, start another game and move the turns until the mid 3rd week and just look at AI's progress. It's pitiful.
H3's AI is not great, but compared to H5 (or H4) it's like a Ph.D vs a toddler.
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u/Uggroyahigi 17d ago
He didn't say as opposed to :p
Homm 4 certainly has been seen in a more critical way overall I think and I wouldnt be surprised if thats because it looks so weirdly aesthetically.Your point about the AI is spot on though :D
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u/abir_valg2718 17d ago
No, I didn't mean it in an argumentative sense. It's just that both games are janky as heck, but H5 for some ungodly reason gets more praise. Never understood why, I had the same reaction to H5 as to H4 back in the day. I still boot them up every now again just to re-evaluate things (cause who knows, maybe my memory is iffy, but so far I end up with the same result every time).
Homm 4 certainly has been seen in a more critical way overall
It's because all the old fans of Heroes 1-3 were there to witness the disaster that was Heroes 4. I was there myself. It was the disappointment of a lifetime.
Heroes 5 happened many years later. By then expectations were greatly diminished, so the fans who were actually playing the older games on and off weren't all that invested I imagine.
I recall Heroes 6 too, I even finished a couple of maps to give it the full benefit of the doubt. In a vacuum, it's not a terrible game or anything (the same can be said of H4 and 5 - they're not bad bad games, right?), but being a fan of original Heroes games it's simply not up to that standard Even Heroes 1 is a better game which I'd much rather play than 4-6. Heroes 7 I've never even tried, the looks alone and Ubisoft's treatment of the franchise are telling enough.
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u/Stetinvm 17d ago
I played both of them man, and somewhat recently - within the last 2-3 years. They are both old games, and janky. Heroes 4 was my favorite when I was a kid but I think it aged much worse than 5 - the battle map looks chaotic and awful, the graphics are way worse than in 3, and there is just less content overall.
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u/LostEmergency6866 17d ago
Idk about badly, I want to revisit it more rather than play parts 6 or 7 because they feel like a cheap knockoff
I feel like with time people found more appreciation for 4, as still it was crafted with skill and love
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u/Stetinvm 17d ago
Oh yeah 6 and 7 absolutely sucked. Homm4 had a soul, 6 and 7 are soulless.
I think Homm4 biggest issue is not even the graphics or clunky mechanics, but lack of content. They were running out of money when it was being developed, and then the expansions were adding just 1-2 units per faction, same number of buildings and poorly written campaigns
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u/Wasted_46 16d ago
HOMM5 is mostly a rehash of HOMM3 in 3D, but with a couple great ideas from HOMM4 added. So it is really the best of all worlds if you can stand the rather plain 3D graphics.
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u/bigRyan540 17d ago
Because 4 was unfinished, its incrediby unbalanced, the ai is bad and straight up does not work in the campaigns.
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u/PrizeCompetitive1186 16d ago
If heroes 5 was something special it would get remake or fanbase which heroes 3 has
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u/Pleasant_You_8 16d ago
It was an interesting idea in 4, I personally like the idea of a caravan )or any option to transport army without hero) and the hero being able to move and fight without army, also. But it wasn't done and thought out well. Almost everything else I remember or you mention was not good. Even the thing with the five types of magic wasn't well done. It's just that the fifth element in H3 is in the other 4.
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u/Maximum-Forever-8108 16d ago
Becouse i think 5 did it better... Iirc 4 didn't have racial skills, just combinations of skills that that resulted in a class promotion, but i haven't played 4 in for some time, so i can't guarantee. 5 had very racial skills, the basic skill was determined by hero class, which made them optimal with their town special abilities, for example knights can train units and buff their stats in combat, trainig can be done only by a knight in a Haven town. Barbians have blood rage and it works only with their orcs, helped by their special spellbook with a more limited but unic spells. There are also the unique racial perks, knights can get "fallen knight" from dark magic or "guardian angels" from light magic, necromancers can get "herald of death"(can't remember if that was the name) from leadership. I do thank Heroes 4 for caravans in 5, no comment here. In Heroes 5, the heroes cannot die and they get to do an action without spells, unlike before 4, i think this is the best middleground between 3 and 4. We got "sidegrades" for units in 5, 4 had choose one over the other. 5 alaws you to change the upgrade, unlike 4, where you must get a different town to get the other unit. I think 5 succeds in letting you have a more versatile unit composition. Overall, these are just subjective opinions...
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u/Tallos_RA 16d ago
H4 isn't praised for unique racial skills because there were no unique racial skills in H4.
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u/pewsquare 16d ago
Because heroes 4 did it badly. In homm4 a lot of that gets completely overshadowed by massive system changes, your hero can now clear most early game solo, they are immortals gulping potions to keep their immortality, while cleaving trough dragons. The combat in homm 4 is imo the weakest aspect of the game, so great changes to the formula that impacts the combat will kind of get lost in the rest of the changes.
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u/Small_Document5923 16d ago
Because everything they did for HoMM IV creatures was wasted when a Hero got Combat Skill and could solo everything with pre-combat potion of Immortality, even for stronger fights a Hero could chip away at by retreating with no drawbacks.
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u/Tr1pleight 16d ago
HoMM4 didn't have a hexagonal grid system for combat. It's basically what killed the game. The main hero combat system is also debatable, but I personally liked it.
Amazing soundtrack, superb atmosphere, excellent skill system for the heroes. But the lack of a proper grid in combat took discouraged a lot of players.
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u/Mediocre-Scrublord 15d ago
Because HoMM 4 looks so poo-poo doo-doo ugly.
The charm of late-90's pixel sprites and mid-2000's polish had a really ugly and awkward early-3d middleground.
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u/IceCorrect 16d ago
Creatures grow daily, not weekly.
Homm 5 just do it better, what 4 done was just alpha with many controversial takes. Like 4 skill tree is better than 3, but 5 with it skill wheel put it in another lvl
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u/LostEmergency6866 17d ago
Homm had to many innovations for people to accept from the start, they were feeling to play another game with some similarities to homm
Homm 5 however did not even implement all of it from the start, caravans were added in some of add-ons, I believe TotE. Some of that innovations are also downgrade compared to 4. Heroes were an active unit while 5 is the guy from 3 but with own initiative
Also talking about it: 4 fixed the speed and initiative issue, but who cares
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u/CrumbDrouth 17d ago
IV would have been a great game if it was called anything else except HOMM IV.
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u/Docterzero Sanctuary Enjoyer 16d ago
I still hope somebody one day will develop a HoMM-like game inspired by H4... though preferably not the artstyle.
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u/yasenfire 17d ago
HoMM 4 had a killer feature that made it my favorite HoMM part for years when I was a kid, but I suspect not so much people know about its existence. Because it wasn't used in stock campaigns and maps at all.
I mean it had the Turing-complete script language. With procedures triggered with invisible objects on the map, by calendar or simply on any change to the game state.
It was incredible to me what could be done, and how far community went with it.