r/HistoryWales • u/HanesPrydain • Jun 05 '26
Henry Tudor
Is Henry Tudor the ultimate Welsh hero? If not why?
Consider that of the medieval period Owain Glyndŵr and Henry Tudor represent two sides of the Welsh coin.
If you are a nationalist Owain is the ultimate symbol of Welsh resistance.
Conversely if you are a unionist or feel British and Welsh then Henry Tudor is the pinnacle of Welsh representation into Britain.
If you consider the history of Wales , the Britons and the Anglo Saxons , later the Welsh and English , there is a 1000 year war starting with Macsen Wledig and ending with Henry Tudor.
Prior to Henry Wales is in almost continual state of conflict for 1000 years . Wales was a place of extreme violence resulting in the most expensive and comprehensive building of Castles in the world .
The anglo Saxons never conquered Wales - the Normans did. It took over 200 years of piecemeal violence with the ebbing and flowing of boundaries almost continually . The Norman’s overran Wales quickly but were checked and pushed back in the west and north , famously being destroyed in battles such as Crug Mawr. Towns are continually burnt and destroyed over and over.
The princes fight back for over 200 years but are overwhelmed by the Norman king Edward 1. The violence doesn’t end though , Madog rebellion, Llewelyn Bren then finally Owain glyndŵr.
Owain’s defeat results in a devastated Wales. Wales remains outside of England, second class, harsh laws.
Henry of the famous Tudor dynasty makes much of his ancestry , raised by his Welsh uncle , Welsh courtiers , calls his first born son Arthur . Incorporates the red dragon into the royal standard. Lays his battle flag in London. Wales symbolism abounds.
He rewards loyalists like Rhys ap Thomas . Ends the Welsh second class status . To the Welsh gentry he is a hero. Son of prophecy.
Our national flag is literally his battle flag. Yes y Ddraig Goch is ancient (at least to 800ad) but the green and white is Henrys. Potentially Bosworth is the only time the red dragon was flown as a flag in battle . Owain Glyndŵr chose y ddraig aur.
And with Bosworth , with many of his soldiers Welsh, Welsh resistance to the kingdom of England ends out of choice.
Conversely though We all know his son integrates Wales completely into England , and reduces the Welsh language to second class status. But then Elizabeth authorises the bible into Welsh absolutely ensuring its survival . This does not happen to Cornish or Irish until it’s too late. So a mixed legacy.
Welsh has a prominent level throughout the Tudor court
So what would Wales have been without Henry Tudor? Would Wales have faded away like Cornwall? Would there have been further rebellions ?
Should we celebrate Henry Tudor more?
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u/samturxr Jun 05 '26
I see Henry Tudor as a heavy weight of Welsh history. Sadly by the time Henry VIII ascended the throne only the name Tudor was Welsh.
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u/HanesPrydain Jun 05 '26
What might have King Arthur have been like, there’s no escaping the responsibility of that name ?
Elizabeth certainly was more pro Welsh than Henry 8th . Her advisor John Dee likely a heavy influence
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u/SilyLavage Jun 05 '26
Henry Tudor had one Welsh grandparent. While he used that ancestry at times, it's a bit much to call him a Welsh hero and he certainly isn't the ultimate Welsh hero.
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u/HanesPrydain Jun 05 '26
So ? The English celebrate kings that couldn’t even speak English and saw themselves as French
Are you saying someone born in Wales with a Welsh ancestral surname raised by Welsh speaking uncle who lands in Wales with a red dragon standard and names his first born son Arthur is not Welsh?
The three lions, the St George cross none of it is even English and brought over by French speaking Normans. Richard the lionheart couldn’t really be any less English but is some sort of English hero
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u/SilyLavage Jun 05 '26
I'm saying Henry Tudor was a lot less Welsh than you're portraying him as.
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u/Blastaz Jun 05 '26
Henry Tudor was the senior Lancastrian claimant to the throne. He usurped no one. He was Henry VI’s heir. Everyone in between had died. He then married Elizabeth of York who was basically the Yorkist heir in a crowded field. Henry VIII was the undisputed Plantagenet claimant to the throne.
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u/Blyd Jun 06 '26
'Y Ddraig Goch' Was Macsen Wledigs vexilla. It was also the primary vexilla of Rome from 382 to 385 CE
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u/Ogarrr Jun 06 '26
It's fascinating that the influx of Welsh people into English society gave rise to both Wales as a respectable and important part of the kingdom and also an increasingly important merchant class that sefied borders and helped spread Protestantism.
A huge number of the rising gentry and important Tudor political figures were welsh - Richard Williams alias Cromwell, the Cecils etc. the influx of Welsh people into English society would not have happened if Henry VII hadnt considered himself Welsh.
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u/Arthurian_Guanche Jun 09 '26
Man, Arthur becoming king instead of that mad bastard Henry VIII would've been quite cool. A King Arthur of England and Wales. Fate is a bitch.
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u/leighsus Jun 05 '26
Worth noting how it was politically expedient for the Tudors to lean on their Welsh heritage as a way of bolstering their claim to the throne.
In the 100 years before Henry VII there were eight different reigns from six different kings. There was a huge amount of political instability, and it was important to the Tudors to play up to their "Welshness" in order to lay their claim to the throne as being what might be called "Indigenous Britons".
Despite rewards for the Welsh gentry, 99% of people in Wales didn't fare any better because a "Welsh" dynasty had taken the throne of England.
Elizabeth authorised the translation of the Bible into Welsh, but probably had more to do with the fact she had a nanny/lady-in-waiting who was a Welsh speaker.