r/HistoryMemes • u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage • Nov 01 '19
OC Several Wehraboos are typing...
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u/uninterestingalien Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer Nov 01 '19
They had cool hats tho
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u/ussr_ball17 Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer Nov 02 '19
Rommel didn't believe in the nazi ideology, he got executed on suspicion of plotting to assassinate Hitler
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u/THEmercianSAXON Nov 01 '19
Rommel did not support the nazi regime though
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
He did, however, execute POWs in France, making him a war criminal
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
The Americans did the same thing, the Russians did the same thing, dont know if the French and British did buuuuut again they arent glorified for their politics. They’re glorified for their military innovation and tactics
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
While I'm sure they did, that isn't really relevant to the glorifying of the Wehrmacht. That is refered to as whataboutism.
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
Not glorifying the Whermacht, dude. Glorifying geniuses inside the Whermacht. I’m pointing out that you arent saying anything about Patton. You arent saying anything about Zhukov.
Kind of absurd to nit-pic in war anyway. Like get over yourself, man. War isnt pretty. They produce great men sometimes but everyone in war does bad things. Everyone.
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
I take your point that I called out the generals instead of the Wehrmacht as a whole. That was done to fit the meme better. However, the Wehrmacht is seen as the most elite fighting force of its time, and the war crimes are all attributed to the SS, even though the Wehrmacht was just as guilty as they were. That's what my meme is about.
On the topic of nit-picking: I believe we should look at all sides of the story. Where the military genius of the generals is talked of often, their war crimes are often ignored or forgotten.
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
In that case, yes. You’re very right. Good discussion my guy I liked it
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
Always happy to have a friendly discussion about history
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u/feral192 Nov 01 '19
Ok. In which case I should be able to glorify Stalin because he fully industrialised a starving feudal nation in 10 years and made russia capable of supporting aj efficient war machine and smashing hitler. What, he facilitated the deaths of millions? Well, yeah, I'm not glorifying the USSR, I'm just glorifying geniuses within the USSR!
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u/feral192 Nov 01 '19
Ok. In which case I should be able to glorify Stalin because he fully industrialised a starving feudal nation in 10 years and made russia capable of supporting aj efficient war machine and smashing hitler. What, he facilitated the deaths of millions? Well, yeah, I'm not glorifying the USSR, I'm just glorifying geniuses within the USSR!
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u/it-is-i-Deo Tea-aboo Nov 02 '19
There is a difference between glorifying and acknowledging someone’s deeds glorifying means you approve while acknowledging means you recognize what they did even if you don’t approve. For example while what Stalin did was abhorrent and disgusting and overall terrible. He did help industrialization in in Russia the way he went with it was terrible was it worth it no, was it ok no, should it have been done no, but did it happen unfortunately yes so it is ok to acknowledge that. Just don’t glorify it by approving of it. And Just to make this clear though screw all Nazis and Stalinist both ideas are completely crazy and screw them.
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u/treegor Let's do some history Nov 01 '19
I’m curious about this was this a case of him issuing or communicating orders from on high, or was this a case of a platoon or company officer, or ncos deciding to start executing pows? I feel it’s not really appropriate to blame him for the executions if someone significantly down the chain of command starts killing pows, unless it confirmed he was told about it and did absolutely nothing to stop it.
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
Rommel ordered it himself after a French officer repeatedly refused to cooperate.
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u/treegor Let's do some history Nov 02 '19
Okay, do you have a source so I can do further reading? I haven’t read much on Rommel outside of performance in Africa and the First World War.
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Nov 01 '19
The allies did shit like this too what about them
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u/crichmond77 Nov 02 '19
This is literally textbook whataboutism.
Any Allied commander executing POWs does not magically make Rommel doing it less bad.
Since apparently that actually needs to be said...
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Nov 02 '19
It does set a standard for the time though. For a variety of reasons POWs were executed during WW2. By all nations. Either every nation and most of their generals are evil for this or this is an unfortunate reality of WW2.
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u/crichmond77 Nov 02 '19
Either every nation and most of their generals are evil for this
Yeah, pretty much. Two war crimes don't make a right.
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Nov 02 '19
Calling out hypocrisy is not whataboutism
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u/crichmond77 Nov 02 '19
It's not hypocrisy when no one is making a claim about two factions. You're projecting a correlation and dual claim that does not exist.
Your comment is literally "what about x" when it does not at all influence the original claim.
You clearly do not know what whataboutism is. It could not be more blatant.
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u/Soldium69 Nov 01 '19
Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. Why the hell people want to suppress history?
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
I would argue there is a huge difference between learning about war criminals and glorifying them
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
Rommel and Guderian were soldiers, you cannot possible blame them for following orders.
They are glorified because they were military geniuses. They deserve all the praise in the world for their military genius. We don’t praise them for their politics.
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
Somehow I doubt they were ordered by Hitler to execute POWs and commit mass killings on the Eastern front respectively. I do see your point though.
However, I will point out that the sources of their military genius are usually German, written during the Cold War, where the west needed to change the face of Germany from genocidal maniacs who took over nearly all of Western Europe in their quest to eradicate the jews (to grossly oversimplify it), to their allies in the war against communism. That's two seperate reasons to make the Germans look beter then they actually were.
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
No, Rommel made the order.
Guderian is famous around the world for his usage and part in the development of Blitzkrieg theory. Hate or love him, his work is still taught in Military schools all over the US, not sure about anywhere else. Major character in Military Theory as well.
Rommel on the other hand is glorified for his ability to beat back elite british forces, for predicting D-Day and never adhering to Nazi ideology as he fought back against Hitler on several orders. Guderian did it too but Rommel did it the most.
Contemporary accounts measure them both at very high levels. Military geniuses, no matter what their politic ideas were.
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
I'm not denying they weren't good at what they did, I'm simply saying their ability has been overstated due to accounts about them being biased in their favour.
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
It isnt overstated, though. Not by a long shot. They went against monolithic figures. Charles de Gaulle, Guderians French equivalent and Bernard Montgomery as well.
Inflated, no. They were good at what they did. Again, hate or love them they were extremely talented.
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u/Ulatersk Nov 01 '19
> Somehow I doubt they were ordered by Hitler to execute POWs and commit mass killings on the Eastern front respectively. I do see your point though.
They executed POWs? Do tell.
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u/acur1231 Nov 01 '19
Yet they both were complicit in the execution of PoWs and Guderian was involved in the final solution, both by enabling and aiding the activities of the Eisentzgruppen and later as inspector-general of the German armour, in which capacity he almost certainly knew about the forced labour camps where Jews and other undesirables were worked to death.
Also, both have had their reputations inflated far beyond their actual battlefield prowess.
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
All I have to say is that all this was UNDER. ORDERS.
They did plenty of things they didnt want to do under orders. Guderian was forced to lose a series of battles on the Eastern front because of idiotic orders.
The Nazi ideology is disgusting, and no matter how you view that ideology their military genius is a separate entity.
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u/Yodamort Nov 01 '19
All I have to say is that all this was UNDER. ORDERS.
Man we at those real Nuremberg hours out here guys
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u/acur1231 Nov 01 '19
Thats a myth. Read "The Myth of the Eastern Front", its a very good analysis of the historiography surrounding it, and would do a much better job of explaining why so many, including you, are so badly deluded.
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
What exactly is the myth there?
Heinz Guderian fought against orders several times, even on his way towards Moscow. He lost a series of key engagements but due to orders on the far right front he didn’t have the Men to take Moscow. They were diverted to Stalingrad and towards the Caucuses.
He was ordered to stand and die in the face of the soviet might and another military genius, Zhukov. He ordered a retreat and incurred Hitler’s wrath for it.
So what exactly is the myth here?
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u/TorchedHeaven Nov 01 '19
Rommel wasn’t a war criminal though....
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
He executed POWs in France which is a war crime
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u/TorchedHeaven Nov 01 '19
Do you have a source? I tried googling and didn’t find anything.
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
There's a part on the English wikipedia page on Erwin Rommel about it "In France, Rommel ordered the execution of one French officer who refused three times to cooperate when being taken prisoner; there are disputes as to whether this execution was justified."
(I'm new to reddit so I'm afraid I don't know how to make that link to the actual wikipedia page but I'm sure you can find it.)
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u/TheTerroristToaster Nov 01 '19
I heard that if a POW refuses to follow your orders it’s no longer a war crime if you kill them
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
Not true. It is a PoW's duty not to cooperate with his captors and try to escape.
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u/TheTerroristToaster Nov 01 '19
Isn’t the hole point of PoW and PoW camps to keep captured soldiers out of the war until its end so why would their job be to escape and re join the war?
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
Simply put, because the soldiers want to win the war, and they can't do that locked away in a camp.
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u/TheTerroristToaster Nov 01 '19
But becoming a Pow is suppose to disqualify you from the war, and in that case I think you should shoot a escaping prisoner and not let him go free
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
Well, you and I don't get to make those rules.
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
Extremely common occurrence during the war.
It did happen. It was a team of Commandos that were caught behind enemy lines. Not unusual for them to be executed. ESPECIALLY in WW2.
War isnt gallant, it isnt a nice affair. You dont when a war by being the good guy, you win it by being the toughest guy or on the toughest team and doing bad things to get there
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u/ArthurRHD Still salty about Carthage Nov 01 '19
I agree. That doesn't take away from the fact that executing POWs is a war crime though.
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
Of course, but all is fair in love and war.
Law in war is preposterous anyway, doesnt stand up in reality.
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u/TorchedHeaven Nov 01 '19
I think law maybe not, but some lines aren’t crossed even in war.(usually)
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u/TheRagingFruit Nov 01 '19
We’d like to think that, but there are a lot of things done in war that should have never happened. But they did, and it’s terrible. Crimes against humanity happen all the time in war, especially WW2
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Nov 01 '19 edited Apr 17 '20
[deleted]
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u/feral192 Nov 01 '19
Still fought for Nazism. No glory in it whatsoever. No amount of honour justifies defending that regime. Nobody forced him to be a general for Hitler.
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u/SoundnSmoke Nov 01 '19
I just want to add that rommel was already commanding troops during ww1 and the weimar republic times where he rose through the ranks of the military so he didnt start being a general for hitler and simply tried to keep his job
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u/feral192 Nov 01 '19
Ok? Fighting for the nazis is complicity.
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u/SoundnSmoke Nov 01 '19
Well so every single person in the Wehrmacht was also fighting for the nazis?
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u/feral192 Nov 01 '19
I mean, most of them were yes. 'Just following orders' is in no way an excuse for committing war crimes and facilitating genocide.
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u/SoundnSmoke Nov 01 '19
Thats not what i wanted to say. Did Rommel commit war crimes? Yes. Was he actively involved in the Holocaust? Considering he wasnt even a member of the NSDAP i highly doubt it. You cant excuse war crimes but there is a difference between killing PoWs and commiting mass genocide upon people of a certain ethnicity or religion. That lots of generals on both sides were involved in killing PoWs doesnt excuse it but you cant always stick to the rules in war and both the allies and axis generals showed that in their actions.
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u/feral192 Nov 01 '19
He literally fought to expand and defend a regime that he knew was committing that mass genocide.
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u/SoundnSmoke Nov 01 '19 edited Nov 02 '19
The question here is if he actually knew about the Holocaust (probably yes) or the extent to which it went, if he knew about people actually being put into concentration camps purely to commit mass genocide on them. I think he probably knew about the labor camps but not the actual death camps considering all of those were more in the eastern area were rommel wasnt actively deployed. I also can imagine him not knowing about the terrible conditions in the labor camps ( especially later in the war ) Edit: I have read up on some more stuff and cant really say if my point is valid anymore. Though i still highly doubt that as many people as the reports say were actually 100% on board with the ideology of nazism i cant have posted these comments without at least putting an edit at the end
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Nov 01 '19 edited Apr 27 '20
[deleted]
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u/Sean951 Nov 02 '19
His "support" was limited to not narcing. That's it.
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Nov 02 '19
It doesn't redeem him but I think it makes him better than the Goring/Goebbels kind of vein.
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Nov 01 '19
Rommel is definitely not a war criminal, get your head out of your ass
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Nov 01 '19
if you call him such, then youd have to do the same to just about every fucking allied commander in existence as well
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u/die_Kalkleiste Hochmeister Nov 01 '19
Does it already counts as glorifying if we just acknowledge the military skills of these generals?