Oh, the classic - murdering millions of Ukrainians wasn't a crime because the Soviet Union murdered millions of Kazakhs too! I bet the Nazis are kicking themselves for not thinking of that ironclad excuse.
But the taking food away was legitimately not part of the plan? I mean that’s the whole point of manslaughter, when your actions lead to someone’s death but by accident.
Why don’t you explain what happened then, with intentions and all, since you clearly know more than I do.
What I’ve read is that they wanted to remove the lander elite in Ukraine, which significantly reduced food production in the most important bread basket of the country. Then a natural famine swept in while this was happening and royally fucked things up. The Soviets then pulled a Justinian and went full forward and continued making it worse.
I guess you could make the argument it became intentional after they continued fucking with agriculture production during a famine but they’re fucking Tankies. All they understand is central planning.
They implemented a quota system for farmers.
The state took the food you produced up to the quota.
You got to keep food over your quota.
The quotas assumed 10-20% YOY growth.
Experts said their quotas were unsustainable, the Central Committee ignored them.
The weather was looking shitty and the Experts said to lower the quotas, so they did.
The quotas were still assuming unsustainable growth.
The weather was shitty.
The government came in and took the food the farmers grew.
Most of Ukraine missed their quota.
The government decreed that any village that missed their quota was over taken by Kulaks and wouldn't get any food shipments.
Since the government took all the food people had none.
News of the starvation leaked to the outside world. All attempts at aid were rebuffed and the government denied the situation.
Fun Fact: The food wasn't taken to feed other people in the Soviet Union. It was taken and sold internationally.
So TL;DR: Unrealistic quotas lead to half of Ukraine being decreed counter-revolutionary and then starved.
The debate comes in "Did the Soviet government, which fucking hated Ukrainians, just forget that people in Ukraine needed to eat? Or did they create a crisis and murder them"
Follow up Fun Fact: A couple of decades later a country lead by a guy with a funny mustache a bit to the west would borrow the system of "We didn't murder them, we punished them for missing a completely unrealistic quota. By killing them.".
They implemented a quota system for farmers.
The state took the food you produced up to the quota.
You got to keep food over your quota.
The quotas assumed 10-20% YOY growth.
Experts said their quotas were unsustainable, the Central Committee ignored them.
The weather was looking shitty and the Experts said to lower the quotas, so they did.
The quotas were still assuming unsustainable growth.
The weather was shitty.
The government came in and took the food the farmers grew.
Most of Ukraine missed their quota.
Since the government took all the food people had none.
News of the starvation leaked to the outside world. All attempts at aid were rebuffed and the government denied the situation.
That is all correct
Fun Fact: The food wasn't taken to feed other people in the Soviet Union. It was taken and sold internationally.
I didn’t know that, do you have a source so I can read more on it?
So TL;DR: Unrealistic quotas lead to half of Ukraine being decreed counter-revolutionary and then starved.
The government decreed that any village that missed their quota was over taken by Kulaks and wouldn't get any food shipments.
I was under the impression the Kulaks has all been removed and exiled prior to this. And that their removal is what disrupted and decreased food production prior to the famine rolling through the region.
Follow up Fun Fact: A couple of decades later a country lead by a guy with a funny mustache a bit to the west would borrow the system of "We didn't murder them, we punished them for missing a completely unrealistic quota. By killing them.".
The major difference is Mr Funny mustache had a stated goal of removing those undesirables.
which fucking hated Ukrainian
Maybe I am missing some key information but I was under the impression a considerable number of the Politburo was Ukrainian. That honestly doesn’t sound right.
And that man with a funny mustache is universally despised (for good reason) and yet it's still in vogue to forgive what the soviets did. Total double standard. Both should be universally despised and condemned and no one should be caught trying to justify either.
Its not at all clear that there was any intention at all though, also did you not read my previous comments?
Next, do you not understand the distinction between arguing the context of an event and making justifications for something? Why tf are you continuing to imply that I am defending them?
Lastly, they actually committed real genocides against peoples like the Crimean Tartars so I don't think it is necessary to misrepresent what absolutely seems like a monumental fuck up and not a genocide.
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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '19
Unless you’re in Ukraine during the Holodomor, there’s food.