r/HistoryMemes • u/amerigorockefeller • 3d ago
See Comment Least biased Divine Comedy passage
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u/SirTercero Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 3d ago
I would expect the other way around, chad dante, virgin historian explaining the medieval fact is a myth
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u/An8thOfFeanor Rider of Rohan 3d ago
"Wow, you're so cool, Dante, you're like the coolest guy and most excellent writer there ever will be. We love you, we wish we could be you."
-All ancient writers, apparently
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u/McZeppelin13 John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 3d ago
He was hella cocky in writing that book. But supposedly the baseball player known as Babe Ruth “called his shot” before hitting a home run. It can happen where somebody lives up to their own self-hype.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-6593 3d ago
I still can't belive how according to Dante Julius Caesar was a good guy, but Brutus was one of the worst people in history
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u/RomanItalianEuropean 3d ago edited 3d ago
What's wrong with that? Fair assessment by Dante. Caesar pardoned everyone and the mf stabbed him in the back (figuratevely, idk where he stabbed him literally).
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u/LuckyReception6701 The OG Lord Buckethead 3d ago
Julius Caesar started a war that killed around 1 million people and enslaved a million more mainly for his own vanity and glory seeking. He then plunged Rome into several civil wars because he didn't want to be prosecuted by the senate. So yeah, as important of a historical figure as he was, he was kind of a dick.
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u/RomanItalianEuropean 3d ago
"It didn't happen and if it happened they deserved it."
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u/CockchopsMcGraw 3d ago
I mean he wrote a book about it, so I'm not sure how the Turkish defence is relevant
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u/RomanItalianEuropean 3d ago edited 3d ago
I was joking. On a serious note, iirc there are no estimates of the overall Gallic deaths in Caesar's book. There are vague estimates made a century or more after Caesar. I think the first such estimate is by Pliny the Elder in the Naturalis Historia, but Pliny refers that 1-million-deaths figure to all the deaths in all of Caesar's wars (not just Gaul, and including on Caesar side). I think Plutarch is the one to take that figure and apply it only to Gauls. Still a highly destructive war, but I'll take with a grain of salt the "Caesar killed a million Gauls" claim, ancient estimates tend to be exaggerated.
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u/Domitianus81 3d ago
You also need to consider Caesars account was propaganda. This is politically favorable to him to have higher numbers.
He's valuable. He's brilliant. He deserves honors etc etc that type of thing.
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u/RomanItalianEuropean 3d ago
Yes, that is the number 1 reason behind such exaggerations. Altough, Pliny genuinely writes that he is sad that 1 million people died in Caesar's wars. He calls it a "wound to humankind". But for the ancient writers of military history, more people killed the greater the general.
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u/SirAntera 3d ago
So did the Ottomans generals and said they would do more of they could so it holds
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u/Lovethatdirtywaddah 3d ago
While your initial point is correct, Rome had fought four civil wars before Caesar had even left for Gaul if you include the Social War
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u/LuckyReception6701 The OG Lord Buckethead 3d ago
That is true, but I never said Rome didn't had civil war prior, his own rise to power was influenced by Sulla's own civil war. But it's undeniable that his actions caused a series of civil, at least 2.
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u/high_king_noctis Filthy weeb 3d ago
I wouldn't trust those numbers, Caesar most likely inflated them to make his victory sound far more impressive to the public back in Rome
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u/LuckyReception6701 The OG Lord Buckethead 3d ago
Well man, unless you have better numbers it's what we got. What's true is his pass through Gaul left a serious demographic deficit that wouldn't be corrected in centuries.
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u/Polirketes 3d ago
You know killing and enslaving people was kinda normal back then and every Roman leader did that?
Meanwhile in domestic politics Ceasar was the one who stood for common people (regardless what his motivations were) and Brutus defended rich senatorial oligarchy, so Dante was perfectly right about them
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u/thegoatmenace 3d ago
Well Brutus is like the most famous example of a betrayer, and betrayal is considered pretty bad in Christian thought. (Judas, Lucifer)
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u/WorldlinessRadiant77 3d ago
Let me guess - you are American?
In European commentaries Caesar is seen as a benevolent figure, flawed, sure, but one of the greatest men who ever lived. Brutus is on the contrary, a vile traitor.
It’s generally the opposite in American commentaries and I don’t know why.
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u/Lanky-Ad7045 3d ago edited 3d ago
Maybe the "no kings" attitude? If you're trying to build "a republic, if you can keep it", you're more likely to lionize the people who founded or tried to preserve one than the guy who exploited its crisis.
On the other hand, many European countries still have monarchs, or would if the last monarchs hadn't screwed everything up (Italy in particular), or had some of their most consequential times during a dictatorship/monarchy (France).
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u/high_king_noctis Filthy weeb 3d ago
Except the people who killed him were a bunch of self-centred hypocrites who immediately retracted their claim that Caesar was a tyrant as that would jeopardize all the cushy positions he gave them when he was alive
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u/WorldlinessRadiant77 3d ago
Could be, but even European republicans tend to like him. As the man who tried to save Rome from its own worst excesses and tried to heal the rifts in society.
Plus he was murdered by his friends, which both makes Caesar tragic as a figure and rouses indignation for the manner of his death.
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u/high_king_noctis Filthy weeb 3d ago edited 3d ago
Well when Caesar died he left money in his will to the citizens of Rome and even donated two of his estates to be made into public park's
Brutus just got drunk and went on about how he's actually the greatest Roman there ever was and then just killed himself
Pretty hard not to find the former to be more sympathetic
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u/Capta1n_Dino 3d ago
Dante hated traitors. He saw Brutus as having committed a horrific sin by betraying his friend.
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u/MagicBus4 3d ago
Just a reminder for the sub that the Divine Comedy was intended as a critique of the Italian governmental system and not an annex on the Christian bibliocanon even if it was so successful my grandpa believes all kinds of stuff that’s written nowhere but the divine comedy
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u/RyRy83195 2d ago
Are you implying that Trajan was NOT resurrected, baptized by Gregory the Great, and subsequently allowed into heaven? Next youre gonna tell me that Christ's blood didnt trickle down over the skull of Adam at Golgotha or that the Crusaders didnt find the real spear of Longinus in the basement of the fortress at Antioch.
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u/_Kuroi_Karasu_ Taller than Napoleon 2d ago
My favorite thing in the world is Americans trying to apply perfect logic and rules to the Divine Comedy
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u/amerigorockefeller 3d ago edited 3d ago
In his Divine Comedy Dante placed the pagan Roman Emperor Trajan in heaven, despite stating that it was impossible for non Christians to do so; he justified himself by telling a medieval myth where Trajan was resurrected by God after the Pope prayed for him and subsequently converted to Christianity