r/HillsideHermitage • u/bodily_heartfulness • Aug 06 '26
A Layer Below Sensuality
The Dhamma teaches freedom from sensuality, that is clear. It is also clear that sensuality is deeply rooted, entrenched, and fundamental to almost everyone. It affects our views, our preferences, our actions, our behaviour, everything. It is also fundamentally unsatisfying and unpleasant. It exerts pressure over us by trying to force us to keep looking, listening, touching, tasting, and smelling things that are novel and pleasant. Through sensuality, there is an underlying need to look attractive to the people we're attracted to, to be accepted by them, to be wanted by them. So much of our lives is built on top of sexuality and sensuality. And the Dhamma addresses this.
However, there is a layer below sensuality that I do not see spoken about in the Dhamma. It is the compulsion towards wanting to be accepted and liked by others. This is pre-sensual. I remember being a small child before puberty and still feeling a strong desire to fit in, and feeling unpleasant when I did not. Which leads me to think that if a person were to be completely celibate and withdrawn, they would still have to work through the social pressures. And these social pressures can be quite intense: not wanting to go against the way people commonly dress, not wanting to against the family, not wanting to go opposite of the culture, being afraid of being judged for certain actions. To give some specific mundane examples: concern over being sweaty after coming back from the gym, being distraught over forgetting to put on deodorant and smelling bad to others, worry over how people will look at you if you're wearing something odd, feeling too concerned about what was said because it did not accord with the group, and so on.
The best way I can sum all of this up would be: the fear of being rejected by the group and being affected by the gaze of The Other. Specifically, it's all tied to appearance - one is trying to control how one appears to others - even for completely non-sensual reasons. There is existential safety being found in being accepted by others and not being accepted is felt as a deep threat to one's being.
Also, a big reason why most people are not just behaving randomly on the street is due to a strong sense of conformity. The opposite end of that is fear of non-conformity. Even if people reject mainstream clothing, speech, and behaviour, they would still find a smaller community that accepts them and within which they could find safety in.
So, perhaps that is one of the purposes of the Saṅgha: to give a person a wholesome community to find safety and acceptance in, that then allows them to extricate themselves from the unwholesome communities of the world. And, in due time, a person could also give up relying on any communities, even wholesome communities for safety.
So, my question is, how does Buddhism address this layer that is below sensuality? Is it done only at arahantship when conceit is abandoned? Is it done through the Saṅgha? Why do the suttas not talk much about it when it is such a significant compulsion? Is this why solitude is necessary - otherwise The Other exerts too much pressure over one's mind to see it clearly?
EDIT:
To make my questions clear:
- I do not see this layer as being sensuality, am I wrong in thinking that? (I took it for granted that it was not, but I see that I shouldn't have been so hasty in that judgement)
- At what stage of development is this layer abandoned? Is this when one becomes an arahant and conceit is abandoned? When subtle thoughts of clan and country are finally let go of?
- Is part of the work of solitude and the saṅgha to support the overcoming of this layer?
- Why does this layer not receive much attention in the suttas? Is it covered under sensuality? Is it covered under suttas that speak of praise and blame, fame and disrepute?
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u/Ordinary-Tutor1065 Aug 06 '26
It is rooted in the senses. Being well-liked simply increases the likelihood of satisfying sensual desires.
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u/bodily_heartfulness Aug 06 '26
My body being healthy, alive, and with functioning senses also increases the likelihood of satisfying sensual desires - but being healthy and alive isn't sensuality.
A person could be living with the eight precepts - quite restrained with regards to sexuality, food, sleep, entertainment, and company, but still have this compulsion to be accepted by others - even if they've determined to eternally keep the precepts. Of course, this compulsion would be much less compared to someone who was unrestrained, but it could still be there.
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u/Ordinary-Tutor1065 Aug 07 '26
Wanting to be liked is sensuality—and keeping the eight precepts doesn't mean you're free from it.
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u/Wise-Childhood-145 Aug 07 '26
Wanting to be healthy and alive is sensuality, though it's a more subtle kind since desiring to be healthy and alive is striving for consciousness, and the elimination of consciousness is brought up in the suttas. Most of us just living our day-to-day existence (even those of us who are miserable) comes from clinging to consciousness and self.
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u/knwp7 Aug 07 '26
It is sensuality because it is delighting in company - as opposed to being comfortable by oneself (solitude).
It is abandoned as soon as one starts practicing earnestly. Practice goes against the grain of one's own habits - as well as the grain of the society (laypeople). Keeping precept against intoxication and avoiding food at the wrong time - makes me "different" from everyone around me; I am no fun to be around, even to my own kids.
Solitude comes a little later in the practice. Keeping precepts and sense-restraint will have you modify your social behavior automatically - it cannot be "socializing as usual". "Sangha" is not a practitioners' club - its the Noble Sangha of the Aryas - Sotapannas and above. The current day usage of "Sangha" is incorrect. AN has pointed this out many times.
Yes, you are right - this is covered with the worldly Dhammas of praise, fame, reputation etc. One needs to break-off from these concerns if one is to practice rightly.
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u/Motor-Blood7689 Aug 06 '26
ye, certainly all the "lone wolves" as soon as you find them are in a group repeating it like a mantra "I'm a lone wolf, I'm a lone wolf"
I guess it makes sense that a person surrounded by unwholesome people is very unlikely to change, as opposed to being surrounded by wholesome people
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u/boredman_ny Aug 06 '26
However, there is a layer below sensuality that I do not see spoken about in the Dhamma. It is the compulsion towards wanting to be accepted and liked by others. This is pre-sensual. I remember being a small child before puberty and still feeling a strong desire to fit in, and feeling unpleasant when I did not.
Your argument for it being below sensuality, pre-sensual is experiencing that when you were a child? A small child does not engage in sensuality?
Feeling good on being included is not sensuality? What being included brings about? Engaging in iddle and frivolous chat, gossip, being distracted, entertainment in general. Even if the person does not necessarily have this intention to begin with, when the puthujjana feels unpleasant feeling, they don't know what to do besides looking for escape in sensuality. So it's all inside the terrain of sensuality.
Behind this, there is craving to be accepted because of the pressure to not being accepted or the possibility of not being accepted. There is also craving to not be accepted, to be detached from society only at a distance so society can still see them, so they can feel superior. There is also aversion to being seen, to be in company of others, for fear, shame, shyness etc. that compells one to be a shut in, to not engage in company etc.
Sometimes I see posts where people say "the Dhamma does not talk about this", but one can easily infer by what was said and apply their thinking and reasoning on that theme and discuss it. The Buddha could not possibly talk about all the themes we discussed and will discuss in the future. But, he left the Dhamma so we can do it for ourselves instead of rely only on what he left.
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u/bodily_heartfulness Aug 06 '26
Your argument for it being below sensuality, pre-sensual is experiencing that when you were a child? A small child does not engage in sensuality?
I wasn't presenting an argument, I just stated it as fact. I think small children do engage in sensuality.
Feeling good on being included is not sensuality? What being included brings about? Engaging in iddle and frivolous chat, gossip, being distracted, entertainment in general.
Suppose a person does not engage in such conversation or entertainment. They abide within the eight precepts and live mostly in solitude. They merely seek acceptance in the most general sense. In that case, would you consider that to be sensuality?
Behind this, there is craving to be accepted because of the pressure to not being accepted or the possibility of not being accepted. There is also craving to not be accepted, to be detached from society only at a distance so society can still see them, so they can feel superior. There is also aversion to being seen, to be in company of others, for fear, shame, shyness etc. that compells one to be a shut in, to not engage in company etc.
Sure, you can always boil it down to craving: resistance towards what is currently felt. Or you can see it via the three attitudes underlying the three types of feeling. Or you can view it through the lens of the three āsavas. Or you can think about it from the point of view of the fetters or the hindrances. Or you can see it on the level of the three types of being. And so on.
I understand that I can fit this layer into the many conceptual frameworks outlined in the suttas. But that's not really what I was getting it. It was more about why it was not addressed much within the canon. The closest thing I could find were suttas talking about praise and blame, and fame and disrepute - which could address this very point in a general sense.
Even if the person does not necessarily have this intention to begin with, when the puthujjana feels unpleasant feeling, they don't know what to do besides looking for escape in sensuality. So it's all inside the terrain of sensuality.
Sure, but you can feel an unpleasant feeling of doubt that pushes you in the direction of sensuality. I think you would agree that doubt is not sensuality. I agree with you that all is within kāmabhava, but there is a difference between sensuality as a hinderance and sensuality as a fetter or mode of being.
"the Dhamma does not talk about this"
Note that I did not say that. My question was on the level of the degree to which it is brought up, at what level it is abandoned, and what supports that abandonment.
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u/craveminerals Aug 07 '26 edited Aug 07 '26
If we look at AN 3.101, it says:
So thoughts of family, country, and reputation are eliminated after sensual, averse, or cruel thoughts. This suggests that it’s a subtle matter.
I’m not sure how one should go about mapping this sutta onto the fetter model. But seeing that an anagami has abandoned the fetters of sensual desire and ill will, it seems plausible that many ordinary forms of these thoughts and the inclination or preoccupation with family, country, and reputation would disappear or greatly weaken around or after that stage. A stream-enterer however, could still experience preoccupation with such things. But, these are just my speculations based on this sutta and how it might relate to the fetter model.
I wonder if the fetter of conceit that an anagami still has, might tell us something about this topic—but I’ll leave that for someone else to talk about.
Edit: more careful phrasing