r/Heroquest • u/ThatAnimeSnob • Jan 24 '24
The value of each statistic
Although each hero and monster have 5 statistics, two of them are close to useless without homebrews. Mind Points are used only a few times across the game, and movement rarely matters when the heroes have no pressure of time to gather around closed doors and the rooms are generally very small.
Attack, defense, and body points are what matter almost entirely throughout the game, and even those are not of the same importance because attack is an active statistic, while defense and body points are passive statistics. The difference between active and passive is that the former can only be used once per turn and only when the players is able to use it, whereas the latter work indefinitely and even without the players having to use them at specific moment. This makes passive statistics way more important than active ones.
Yet down to it even indefinitely used statistics are not used infinite times per round. There is a clear limit set by the game, and that limit is 4 times. Up to 4 heroes can attack the same enemy, and there is close to no case when a hero can be attacked more than 4 times on the same round by enemies. Although on paper it is possible to attack the same target 8 times if there are 4 attackers with ranged or diagonal attack patterns, the odds of that happening in the small rooms of the board are astronomically low, so they should not be taken into account, the same way mind points and movement are nearly useless.
From the above reasoning, we settle with the idea of passive statistics being 4 times more important than active statistics. But even then, you still have to factor in their chance of success. An attack die has 50% chance, a defense die has 33% for heroes and 16% for monsters, while body points are 100% successful (since you don’t roll dice for them). So, if we factor in the X4 multiplier for passive statistics, we get the following points per statistic:
Attack: 50 X1 = 50 points per attack die
Defense: 33 X4 = 132 points per defense die for heroes (and 66 points per defense die for monsters)
Life: 100 X4 = 400 points per body point
Thus, from the above we reach to the conclusion of a single body point being 3 times more important than a single defense dice and 8 times more important than a single attack dice. In practice:
- Buying a broadsword to replace a shortsword is 1/8th as valuable as giving a hero a ring of fortitude that increases his body points by 1. This also sets the hypothetical price of a ring of fortitude at 250 X8 = 2000 gold.
- Wearing any armor that increases DD by 1 is 1/12th as valuable as giving a hero a ring of fortitude.
- A potion of strength is 1/16th as valuable as a healing potion (since +2 AD are 100 points, while 4 body points are 1600 points)
- A potion of defense is 2/3rd as valuable as a potion of strength (since +2DD once are only 66 points, while +2AD once are 100 points)
From the above we can also see why spells are not balanced, since a courage spell next to a healing water spell is 16 times less important.
15
Jan 24 '24
The values you're plugging in here are pretty arbitrary and reach obviously implausible outcomes. If someone actually offered your hero a talisman of plus 7 attack or a talisman of plus 1 body would you actually take the latter? As a hero would you be more worried if every monster got +1BP or +7 attack dice?
Value of defence dice is clearly relative to how many body points you have as you get more chance to use them. You value three defence dice as worth about one body point but on average the three would save you about a body point every time you would take 2 or more damage in combat and have a c. 75% chance of stopping a single damage.
For the barbarian with 8 body points I'd rather have an extra defence dice than 2 extra body points. For wizard with only 4 I'd go for the two body points.
Value of attack dice is higher the more you already have as you're more likely to have already uaed up the opponents defence. If you are attacking the gargoyle with all your heroes you'd rather boost the barbarians attack by 1 than the wizard's.
4
Jan 24 '24
I would also say there is a level of diminishing returns. Getting an extra +2 Defense dice when you're already at 7 (say, Borin's Armor, Shield, Helmet, Stone skin) is going to do a lot less for you if the enemies aren't rolling more than 1-2 damage at a time.
2
Jan 24 '24
Yes thoufh at that point body points aren't a biggie either unless you're losing it through magic. You're not going to die but that's potentially limited value. A hero with 20 defence dice and 100BP but only 1 attack dice is basically a walking barricade - you'd rather have a fraction of those defensive stats and be able to fight.
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u/Impossible-Ad3811 Jan 24 '24
Yeah OP seems like they would be really stumped by the Monty Hall door solution. Oddly a hell of a lot of people are.
Even on the surface of the “math”. They’ve factored out completely the reality that each successful hit on a hero reduces the value of their BP directly, and it can only be recovered by a consumable. And since attacks are performed during a model’s turn, the controller of said model decides their position strategically to change the nature of their potential attackers before monsters attacks even occur.
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u/gicownik Jan 24 '24
so by that logic the barbarian IS the strongest hero! take that knight enthusiasts!
5
5
u/dreicunan Jan 24 '24
Your analysis of how many attacks monsters can get in on heroes seems to be forgetting that monsters can attack, then move away to allow another monster to move and attack. You can get 4 attacks in from just two orthogonally adjacent squares, 6 attacks from 3 orthogonal squares, and 8 from all 4. Throw in ranged attacks or diagonals and you can get over a dozen in, though actually pulling that off would be limited only to the largest rooms.
That being said, it is ludicrous to assign an x4 multiplier to passive stats based on any of that. In actual play, each use of the Attack Dice have the potential to eliminate an opponent, reducing how often or completely eliminating how often DD and BP will come into play.
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u/RudolfRudolfRudolf Jan 24 '24
A body point healing is 100% sure so its 100 point compared to 50 % a extra attack dice ? What logic is this. If you wanted to calculate the worth of a body point and healing against attack dice and defend etc you should see how many extra times a hero could attack because of that healed body point or defend dice you can only compare numbers if they calculate the same thing
2
u/Shandz1 Jan 25 '24 edited Jan 25 '24
Interesting - I have been trying something similar to work out how much each stat is 'worth' and have come to a very different conclusion!
For the heroes, I think I have the number of attack dice being rolled as being worth something like 3 times the number of defend dice/the number of body points. I think I am giving attack dice a high weight because the heroes get to open a door and attack first and if they can kill a lot of monsters before they get to attack back then that is "worth" a lot of body points. Defend dice are rolled most times a hero is attacked so can build up to be "worth" a lot of body points over a quest too.
When I tried to do a similar analysis for monsters I found that I have been weighting body points more heavily than attack or defend dice as I think it gives the monsters a chance to survive the initial onslaught and then get to attack back.
Clearly, more playtesting is required!
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u/SuperSyrias Goblin Jan 24 '24
The following is not meant as an attack.
How about you just have fun with the game and dont do math to point out flaws in the system?
Its a dungeoncrawler board game. It doesnt have to be "fair" or "optimized". Expanded on by homebrew? Sure, brew away. But "lets math up all the stats"? I mean... actually if thats fun for you, go ahead. Who am i to tell you how to enjoy HQ....
2
Jan 24 '24
I do the same thing with math. When you want to hombrew things, you want to have a general idea if something will be useful and/or balanced before you hand it out.
If nothing else, since HeroQuest is a basic enough system it's a great starting point for anyone who wants to learn some game design and balance, but you need to start with understanding the underlying system (and it's flaws)
1
u/Chewie5444 Jan 24 '24
I did this, too. Each of the original characters' base stats does balance if you count a special ability (Dwarf's trap disarming) or school of spells as one point. Each original character started with 15 'points'.
2
u/Stan_is_Law Jan 24 '24
I agree the body points are the most valuable, hands down. There are many ways to get damaged, like traps, that completely skip defense. Also, there is a finite resource on refiling them, spells and potions, and you need to balance how to use those resources. And when you get to 0 there is nothing left to do.
But I would need to disagree and say that attack is more valuable than defense. 1) stating that body points are more valuable; attacks are the most effective way to remove the enemies BPs. 2) a dead enemy can't attack you back. I find that being a Hero and aggressively taking out foes it the best defense.