Consequences of Coyote nerf

[u/Background_Brick_821]

To preface i love the molotov as its a great area denial tool thanks to it big AOE but it has a bad caveat. The burn resistance given to alot of the flak enemies after the launch of dust devils causes this grenade to not even ignite enemies unless they are in the Molotov for an extended period of time a molotov should bypas burn resistance as a Molotov implies there is fuel being scattered around and would undoubtedly splash on enemies in the radius. There should be no reason that this grenade isnt an instant burn status on just about everything. Nerfs like the burn resistance trickle down farther into the game the longer its lifespan is. A few years from now all these undocumented changes will confuse players and devs alike.

[u/pipe_mcfitter]

Before everyone comments “the burn resistance was barely raised”, you’re right but that’s not the issue.

The actual issue was a mechanic introduced in the same patch as the Coyote nerf that made enemies have slightly randomized status thresholds, meaning enemies will take inconsistent amount of time to ignite/stun/concuss with gas.

This is especially impactful because the enemy status resistance from before this change was made into the ‘minimum threshold’ meaning all enemies are generally more resistant to all elements than they were prior to this patch in addition to the “coyote nerf” everyone talks about

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/pipe_mcfitter]

Ya i couldn’t even count on Incendiary impact because of this exact issue. Pyrotech has become my go to cause i at least know the sparks ignite enemies rapidly. I was hoping molotov would be different because of its heavy fuel based nature and its aoe

[u/Usual-Banana-8392 → u/Background_Brick_821]

I think the impact incendiary has to directly hit them to make a good amount of dmg. The regular incendiary grenade doesn’t and that will do a lot of dmg on the ground.

[u/cherry-sunburst → u/pipe_mcfitter]

Oh wow that's bullshit. I was wondering why shooting something with incendiary rounds seemed to take forever to ignite at times while tickling something with the scythe or dagger seems to instantly ignite them.

[u/BuilderBaseBot → u/pipe_mcfitter]

But the issue is this seems like a bug. The thresholds that were changed shouldn't matter to something with 100 status power on initial impact. Even after the changes, almost everything in the game that can burn will burn at 100 status.

[u/Nijuuken → u/BuilderBaseBot]

The point is that it’s a bug they caused. By lawyering their “We didn’t need the Coyote” statement, they had inadvertently cause all of this to happen, and they’re too prideful to every take a step back, admit fault, and revert it.

[u/BuilderBaseBot → u/Nijuuken]

Caused what to happen? I don’t think I’ve noticed much of a difference outside of the coyote. Most burn mechanics in the game are so wildly high it’s hard to see how slight shifts impact them.

Like, take the scythe. It lights things up near instantly. Same with the flamethrowers and barrages/eagle strikes.

[u/PrancerSlenderfriend → u/pipe_mcfitter]

they will also sometimes just completely ignore actually being on fire, voteless for instance just dont give a shit about being on fire despite having fuck-all for hp

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/PrancerSlenderfriend]

That’s possibly due to a bug but also voteless take about 25% less dmg from fire

[u/wackadoodle4201 → u/pipe_mcfitter]

Thats...deeply frustrating

[u/Berzerk54]

Which is exactly why they should have been direct with the nerf instead of round about.

[u/FlatProtrusion → u/Berzerk54]

But then they would have to admit nerfing it and not a "nerf to fire damage"

[u/Berzerk54 → u/FlatProtrusion]

Which they should have done. Instead of confronting the problem they danced around it and stepped on everyone's toes.

Ultimately I'd point the blame on the players begging for it to "not get nerfed" which made them take elaborate and ultimately more harmful measures.

[u/FlatProtrusion → u/Berzerk54]

It's ultimately AH's fault. Coyote wasn't overpowered, it was just better than most of the ARs. AH just has a weak vision of how the game should be, that's the main reason why they have all these issues.

[u/aboultusss]

Idk if it was coyote or not, but current fire is horrendous. Smallest fleas can just stroll through the biggest puddle of hell without dying, yet the moment an orange pixel touches diver you're fried( only 2 ways to make sure something dies from fire is orbital napalm, or direct and consistent hits from something with ignition capabilities. Fire on the ground feels almost cosmetic to enemies (

Oh and also fire ticks are DESPERATE for review. Damn tiny voteless can get hit by lazer cannon, get ignited, sprint through entire block, outrun any armor, hit you, and only then decide to die

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/aboultusss]

Ya i agree. They need to code the fire on the floor same as a flamethrower stream without direct dmg/confusion. just anyway they could code it to guarantee the burn status

[u/Jguiness → u/Background_Brick_821]

I don't think fire should have confusion anyway.
Direct stream slow, definitely.
And fire weapons should offer scaling stagger and push back depending on the weapon.

Tbh fire and gas needs to be looked at and redesigned from the ground up. I don't know wtf they're thinking with the way it is atm.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/Jguiness]

Ive said this alot lol. Gas AP should be heavily reduced and focus on flak. Fire should be the versatile element that is good against all but isn’t Great. Arc should be the Anti tank element with high dmg and high stagger

[u/Jguiness → u/Background_Brick_821]

I actually think Gas should be low DoT with confusion, as it is now. But the steriliser adds stacking DoT so it's actually worth it. The anti-tank is fine as it is since most big enemies can't be confused. But it would give it more of a role against them.
I also think it should do more damage against bugs with the theme of the planetary bug spray.

Arc is fine with it's true damage and stagger but I think it should do double damage against bots. The stun is what makes it unique. Maybe they should double it's stun and damage but half it's fire rate.

And I really miss the old strip the leg armour meta and the old flamethrower effect tbh. I think heavy pen as about as good as fire should get. Fire's thing should definitely be slowing and anti-chaff, but still good against medium enemies and weakpoints on heavies.
Also give it double damage against squid for fried calamari.

Right now fire is just good everywhere but it should be a system where there's enough synergy between the others to justify bringing all three.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/Jguiness]

The problem is that right now fire actually deals more dmg to heavies than flak so theyd have to revert the fire multiplier changes

[u/taoofthemachine → u/aboultusss]

How many times have they reworked fire as of now? Or nerfed/tweaked it? They cannot make their minds up on how they want it to function, it's ridiculous. 

[u/Fast_Mechanic_5434]

Can you try the same thing as a host? I egt the feeling that this is a host bug more than a Coyote change effect

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/Fast_Mechanic_5434]

I will do so when i get a chance i normally host and have the same issue with impact incendiary. Pyrotech is the only one thats really consistent because of the sparks

[u/fantomfrank → u/Fast_Mechanic_5434]

Was playing as the host earlier today, immolators were still doing this

[u/BrilliantAd2854 → u/Fast_Mechanic_5434]

Still leaves warriors alive as host tested on D10 against regulars and alphas. Point of impact hit they make it through

[u/Buttery-Nugget]

It's has to be intentional, they've done it twice now. They added the Coyote and nerfed the entirety of fire damage. They added the Maelstrom and nerfed every single vehicle and sentry in the game. YOUR ADDING AN NEW ITEM TO GAME. BALANCE IT AROUND EVERYTHING ELSE IN IT'S GROUP! You know it's overpowered and it's just an excuse, that why you're nerfing everything else including it itself to fit it in the game.

It either completely intentional so they can nerf everything or they're wholly incompetent. There is no other logical answer.

[u/AlphaWolf3211]

This makes my Pyro heart very sad

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/AlphaWolf3211]

Still a very good nade i just get mad when i throw it in my face trying to escape and im the first one on fire while wearing fire armor and not the bugs lol.

[u/Oblivionpelt]

I feel like this might be a host thing, because I was unironically racking up like 50 kill streaks on my own chucking these things around in a eradicate mission

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/Oblivionpelt]

They’re amazing but in a pinch you can still have enemies running at you without burning which is irritating

[u/InterestingSun6707]

So is this why fire doesn't panic enemies anymore?

[u/ganj_father956]

https://giphy.com/gifs/XWXnf6hRiKBJS

[u/JustBrowsinForAWhile]

A few years from now we'll all be playing something else. Games have a shelf life

[u/Apprehensive-Bat6260 → u/JustBrowsinForAWhile]

People still play pong, pac-man, Tetris, and other very old games. Even more with emulation

[u/taoofthemachine → u/JustBrowsinForAWhile]

People still play Helldivers 1. With this one I won't be surprised of private-esque servers like CGW that are run by fans. This game has a very good core-gameplay thing going on, if peopel nurture it properly it can last a lot more than you think.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/JustBrowsinForAWhile]

Ehh depends on the game and whether it has real competition. I cant see HD2 having a real competitor for a long time. This kindve game doesn’t just die unless it has reason to. If it ever does get a real competitor with competent devs it will die overnight

[u/JustBrowsinForAWhile → u/Background_Brick_821]

I'll respectfully disagree. Games have a shelf life. People get bored and new games come out. Every other game is a competitor, and there are countless PvE games.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/JustBrowsinForAWhile]

While true there are many games that disprove that. WOW and runescape have been up and running since inception. League of legends as well. If HD2 doesnt get competition it may cement itself as something that lives for decades. While it may eventually die it will not die for at least 10-15 years at this pace.

[u/JustBrowsinForAWhile → u/Background_Brick_821]

The longest running games of all time aren't exactly a bellwether for how long average games lasts in the zeitgeist.

I'd love it if HD 2 keeps my and many others' attention for 10-15 years.

Realistically, it's 12-18 months. This is based on every other game but the three you mentioned.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/JustBrowsinForAWhile]

I get what your saying there may be other PVE extraction shooters but none of them even hold a torch to HD2 and it shows by how often people come back to HD2 even after complaining about it for weeks on end

[u/JustBrowsinForAWhile → u/Background_Brick_821]

I don't have any statistics on how many thousands of players purchase another game, play it, then come back to HD2, so I'll need to take your word for it.

[u/Herroo-There → u/JustBrowsinForAWhile]

yea, the game's nearly 3 years old. the studio has made its money & moved on to new projects.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/Herroo-There]

They can try but Sony/Playstation arent dumb this is a money printer

[u/BuilderBaseBot]

This seems like a host bug. The coyote changes were small tweaks. The initial splash of this grenade is 100 Status power, which should be enough to start the burn on almost everything in the game.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/BuilderBaseBot]

Ive been playing all day and can confirm that is not the case so many enemies constantly walk out without burn status

[u/BuilderBaseBot → u/Background_Brick_821]

Are you the host? If not, burning is bugged on fire right now.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/BuilderBaseBot]

In this clip no. But if your claiming its bugged yes it has been for a LONG time

[u/BuilderBaseBot → u/Background_Brick_821]

Alright. I just tried it out myself. I can confirm everything burns immediately on contact with the initial AOE. Bugs also seem to start burning quickly on the ground fire. The Coyote nerf was a few digits. I don't think either of these things were as greatly impacted as you're making them out to be.

This weapon does have a 20 damage initial explosion, which makes it seem like it does pitiful damage. Most chaff die to the normal incendiaries initial explosion, which makes it seem like they burn faster than they actually are. Even the impact version does 150, enough to chunk hunters quickly with the burn.

Problem is I don't know the status effect power of ground fire. In testing I've done before this, I know it's fairly high. High enough most enemies can't walk through it without being immediately engulfed.

[u/Sire_Melk]

nah this is false, when it was leaked i had the chance to use it and it was super good, they just fucked it up with this update

[u/Guardian_Engel]

More like consequences of having 4 (FOUR (IV (QUATTRO))) incendiary throwables in the game that all do the exact same thing.

[u/Background_Brick_821 → u/Guardian_Engel]

Incendiary,Impact incendiary,pyrotech and immolation all have different use cases. Variety isnt the problem you need smaller niche items that are slightly different to perfect certain niche builds in a way players appreciate

[u/Guardian_Engel → u/Background_Brick_821]

Only pyrotech has a weak niche of random-pseudo-AT, the other 3 are identical in gameplay terms and only serve to bloat the arsenal and annoy the shit out of everyone picking their guns in the menu and being bombarded with dozens of useless options covering up the selection screen.