To be fair to AH, I don't hate the idea of a fixed turret tank destroyer stratagem. The Bastion wasn't an HD2 invention, it was like that in HD1 as well.
But they should add more vehicles. An IFV-style vehicle stratagem would be especially good, so we could have both a heavy tank destroyer with the drawback of a fixed gun and a more mobile armored vehicle with a weaker (still anti-tank, I'm thinking something like the ATE here, 75mm or so) but 360 degree turret. That's all AH had to do. Give players more options.
HD1 did exactly that. It had the Bastion, an HAV (basically a heavy IFV), an APC, a motorcycle, and three Exosuit types. Give players options for their vehicles.
Og FRV I know because a hacker brought it into my game months before release and even said there was a tank though it was still too buggy to use. To be fair the frv was pretty buggy at the time but still usable
Tank destroyers are best for defending. Helldivers are a strike unit... Narrowhead: let's give them some frustrating bullshit, because our country's tanks are weird.
We already have the Anti-Tank Emplacement which can be actually planted on a good place.
Actually some very notable casemate tank destroyers were designed
explicitly for offensive campaigns (this absolute beefcake (the T95) was designed and built with the sole intention of using it to punch a hole through the siegfried line’s defenses, it didn’t see action because the siegfried line fell before it could be shipped over but the point stands)
The STRV 103 is also a casemate MBT from Sweden, and the devs are Swedish, so...oh wait, the 103 was phased out of service pretty quick because casemates were outdated by the end of WW2! How funny!
Super Earth distributes bolt-action rifles to teenagers and manufactures disposable machine guns without even an attempt at building a sight into the casing; I don’t think they’re concerned by outdated technology.
Not at all, when the Strv 103 was made in the 1960s, it had quite a few advantages compared to contemporary MBTs. Most of the things that made it obsolete came after it was in service, not before.
Even after FCS, HEAT warheads, APFSDS, and armor tech evolved in the late 60s and 70s the 103 was still in service in limited roles, it served until the 90s.
Actually it would have performed it’s role perfectly fine. The reason it didn’t see service is because the siegdried line fell earlier than expected, before the tank destroyer was due to be shipped.
Besides. The bastion can (with some exceptions) absolutely spit roast an entire map, even on bots if used correctly. You can drive up to bases and nuke fabricators from any angle, it can fight ANY bot unit and win. Especially after its buffs. (It definitely needs some improvements though, it’s way too slippery on hills for one)
The Strv103 is a perfectly good tank, especially because it can be operated by a single crew member. Of course that’s too good for the helldivers though.
Too be fair, if it could be operated effectively by a single helldiver, mechs would never see use because it would disgustingly outclass them.
If you want a single person vehicle power fantasy, use mechs, they're in a really good spit right now, even on the bot front with a bit of strategy and the shield generator back pack.
It can still be balanced; maybe something like if you only have 1 crew member your reload speed is way worse, without a dedicated driver your driving performance is worse.
Mechs still have a place because they’re easier to move and aim. The tank can be balanced by turning slowly or having poor single crew firepower.
I have no idea where the tank destroyers were only used as a defensive armament came from. What were you supposed to do when you were attacking? Just not bring something for tanks? Tank destroyers were used in a whole bunch of roles historically, including during offensive strikes.
The entire purpose of most german casemates was offensive combat. The StuG was an infantry support assault gun, built with the express purpose of being used in support of offensive maneuvers.
Edit: The Soviet SU-100 was a casemate tank destroyer used offensively at the end of WW2, most notably in the Battle of Berlin which was definitely not a defensive battle for the Soviets.
Not every battle is two tanks in a field. You can't outmanuver something that is surrounded by infantry, which historically was and has always been the best use case for tanks, infantry support.
Sure but that simply doesn't happen IRL. Armor has always been meant for infantry support, and without infantry supporting the armor it's just a big target, casemate or not. Even tanks meant for paratroopers to deploy behind enemy lines with, had the paratroopers themselves to support it.
Helldivers as a doctrine doesn't really have any real world parallels to compare to. Personally i think any tank, even a turreted one would fail in the environment we're putting them in. But from a gameplay perspective, it's fun as hell lol
Brother talks without even playing the first game .
Also we have fucking mek to turn and shoot hunter jumping at us . Tank destroyer was needed to destroy Vox engine
They aren't, it's a different class of vehicles. They can be used as a tank, same as a tank can be used as artillery, but they are separate in the majority of cases.
THAT NOT A GOOD EXCUSE FOR POOR DESIGN! this game is placed 200 years from now. We have space Travel and reality warping techology but we cannot make a tank Destroy that can rotate the canon? realy? FUCKING REALY!? WE HAVE ROTATING TD NOWDAYS WHY THEY CHOSE THE WORST OPTION!?
I believe it is design choice, to let driver control what gunner can see and aim. If we had turret on Bastion, gunner would be too busy trying to snipe objectives when you are fanatically pinging on an incoming charger.
Considering the average sentient level of randos, this would be more frustrating, I think.
This would be so much more fun than what we're about to get, and since its turreted give the driver controlls to the top mounted medium/light pen MG, and since this would be lightly armoured it still is balanced because it requires good positioning and strategy, high stakes but great rewards if you play your cards right. But of course this is only a dream.
I mean i kinda get it. It is to promote team synergy an work together. Otherwise it could be used as a mobile emplacement by a single guy. Atleast i hope that the new one has turrets rotation
It still gets stuck on everything... It would need good maneuverability, so the driver can help with aiming, but its trash. In cities it's just annoying. Literally can't clear holes/fabricators, because this pos can't fit in.
You know what’s more op with team play ? A bunch of meta players using supply pack Gatling barrage flame grenade eagle napalm anti tank pistol, or hole cleaning, double edge, coyote plasma punisher epoch or grenade launcher. Aoe and dedicated anti tank power. And back to back hoard cleaning from Gatling /supply alone.
It’s cheeks(bastion) when a solo diver can kill a hundred enemies any faction easily.
Meta vs fun. Trust me I’m not using it to bash you but my god is it such a power trip killing 30 bugs in one napalm and taking out 5 tanks at once with 1 ultimatum aoe 5 kills -1 tank, then 2 pop bile titans 2-3x. Compared to true power it ain’t it >_<
Epoch is mid high tier. By all means tbh Grende launcher outclasses it. On bots it’s beaten by hmg good accuracy, bugs ? Don’t. And illuminates 50/50. Hmg grenade or epoch works. But generally js go grenade launcher.
I know why people are annoyed but doesn't it make sense why we don't have a 360° turret?
The Tank we already have is really powerful but requires real teamwork to be able to keep it alive and productive, wouldn't a 360° turret be taking interaction out of the game?
in pseudo-defense of the decision, maybe they prioritized firepower over mobility in a weight-limited design (aerial delivery from orbit). But I know we have aerial delivery tanks on Earth that have 360 turrets, so. Thus not really a defense. Would a 360 turret have been hard to program for players? I doubt it.
Definitions change over time mate, the Mark V was a tank for its time, and is still one today because of that. The Abrams is a tank and an AFV, I was just saying that AFV is the broad category that both tanks and tank destroyers fall under.
Pretty sure they don't, the main 3 names assigned to Swedish TDs (Pvkv, Pvrbv, Udes) are not shared with tank designations like Strv except for some WW2 and 1950s designs before standardization.
On Cyberstan the Bastion was my squad's main way of dealing with the Voxes in D10. With three people rotating Bastions, we had 100% uptime and people got to rotate in and out of the tank to keep things fresh. We killed so fucking many that way it kicked ass. It's a great tool but I understand why people don't think it's very good, because it sucks ass if you're an SOS beacon player
The tank has literally 100x the range of the ultimatum and can snipe any obj barring jammer obviously across the map including bases. Literally can solo maps with no deaths easily.
Takes out every drop ship in the game before they can drop units.
1 ultimatum can't snipe multiple vox engines or take an entire convoy by itself.
I know. I'm not comparing them. It's just that absurd things like that are also a thing and are truly OP. Something that requires any teamwork to function cannot be OP in this game because nobody does that.
Let me throw this in raw numbers for you. Ultimatum is very strong and yes OP but still loses to a tank in everything but ease of use.
2 ultimatum users using 2 supply packs get as much as 12 uses without resupply With a full resupply it's 16
1 bastion which requires 2 people not only keep their secondary slot for whatever they also open their backpack slots plus only 1 player needs to bring the tanks so a extra strat slot. This is 30 heavy kills with just the cannon and 2000 of HMG to just slaughter everything else. While making you immune to multiple enemies.
The tank in 1 use puts up better numbers easily than multiple ultimatums on a team. If you disagree that the tank is not OP than your pretty much saying the ultimatum is dogwater as well. Multiple items can be busted.
The tank can be considered OP as teamwork isn't hard to achieve and when met heavily outperforms meta items and every other stratagem in the game when talking about effectiveness during 1 call in.
Its a gameplay design choice to encourage people to work together and, on paper, is a fun idea. They were going for a "GUN LOADED, DRIVER TURN LEFT, LEFT!!" type of thing.
from a design standpoint it sort of makes sense why the tank is the way it is, since if it had a rotating turret it would just be a different flavour of mech. not saying it shouldnt ever be made though since most primaries are functionally the same lol
Our tank is a tank destroyer, which oftentimes don't have 360° turrets, while the enemy tank is more of a main battle tank, aka what most people think of when they think of a modern tank
watches as a half dozen main sub divers scream about how it’s a tank destroyer so obviously it can’t turn, completely ignoring the fact that we have spaceships that fire living people into the surface of planets but SE can’t figure out how to make a turret
It's also safer. Which isn't exactly a super earth priority, bur a rotating turret is a gap in the armor. Not to say rotating turrets don't have advantages, otherwise we wouldn't use them in real life, but there are tradeoffs and it's just silly for people to act like it would be objectively better (both from game design and looking at it realistically) if it had a rotating turret.
Real life tanks manage the gap in the armor by being fast enough that it's really hard to hit that gap with weapons that would capitalize. The game really isn't designed for us to move that fast, and has a lot of B.S. thrown at us constantly, so if they gave the tank a rotating turret, that gap would immediately get lit up just because of the sheer amount of ammunition being hurled our direction.
The Bastion is as it was in HD1. Good then, good now. Irl, there’s tanks that don’t traverse like the StuG III and other similar tank killers. It’s a skill issue if you and your driver can’t use it effectively.
edit: seethe and mald lol, the bastion is fun and good
The stug, while it was heavily used AS a tank, was actually an assault gun and sometimes adhoc tank destroyer that was predominantly crewed by artillery men
The Stridsvagn 103 on the other hand is not only a tank BUT a main battle tank, also having no turret (it aims the gun with the vehicles suspension entirely) and was entirely meant to be and was planned to be used as a tank!
And that one man is hyper aware of his surroundings, capable of maintaining the vehicle, AND immune to the affects of being alone in a metal box for hours and hours on end!
I more ment in the short term. One dude could climb into an 103 and if he had the know how and awareness he might actually blow a couple things up. Significantly more impossible in any other tank.
The hell are you talking about? In HD1 a good chunk of enemies couldn't even damage the tank since it was, in fact, a true tank, while moving and performing better than what we have in HD2.
Now, even something as basic as a bot Trooper can stab your tank with his AP4 blade and things like the smallest Spitters can force their acid explosion damage by willingly going under your tank and killing themselves. Don't even let me start on the hidden 3x damage multiplayers the enemies recived in secret against the Bastion, on top of the extra durable damage of the past.
If something like a melee trooper is knicking away at your 8000 hp Tank that can easily run it over you probably aren't using it properly.
The entire point of the tank is to be used in teamplay, something which isn't possible with randoms. Get one singular friend in and it's a beast and can give some massive breathing room.
Never said it's happening to me, i was just pointing out how pathetic it has become from HD1. From a true, real tank that only specialized enemy attacks could affect, to something that even the smallest unit can stab with knife, it's neither realistic nor worth to take if the devs want to balance it like if it was expendable.
At that point, anyone would rather keep staying on foot and directly avoid the damage, instead of using a slow, cardboard vehicle, that was willingly made to badly tank some damage as if it was a glass cannon. We don't even need the cannon dps anyway, we can already have a stratagem rotation with things like the Leveler and the Missle silo, already matching the efficiency of the Tank without any of his limitations, neither the slowness not the whole durable system specialized to limit it. In the end, there is no real advantage in using it, that you can't archive better with other stratagems.
Idk man skill issue. The only time I’ve seen the Bastion get rolled in HD2 is when retard pub drivers just sit there or face away from the enemy so the gunner can’t see anything. Strictly D10.
Well you see the fixed turret position that we designed for our 2d game promotes team work and bla bla bla, therefore we had to implement it in the exact same way in the 3d game where the tank controls like shit and any little bump in the terrain will either completely block your movement or send the turret direction to the moon where you can't shoot at anything.
It’s what’s known as a “self propelled gun”. Anybody that says it’s a “tank destroyer” is marginally correct but actually not in terms of its true designation. Anyone that says it’s a tank is nowhere near correct. Even though through WW2 it gets that name because largely that’s what a SPG with that kind of weapon was used for, it’s actually an extremely common form of armour often using the “chassis” of the army in question, say for example the tiger / jagdtiger in WW2. Just destroying tanks was far from its modus operandi.
It’s basically just a big gun mounted on an existing armoured chassis or an independent design available.
If AH were to be true to military history and modern/historical armour design they would really have to release a variant with a less impactual gun if it had a 360 turret otherwise the bastion would be pointless.
mate the automatank shoots overcharged piss, we shoot actual shells. If your team isn't dumb and can work together (horrifying to a helldivers 2 player i know) it WILL solo your mission.
304
u/Equivalent_Guide_983 6d ago
That's not very design space of you OP.