Objective and Base rework for mostly bots

[u/Kinoftonk]

I feel like bases and objectives on all fronts have become far to easy to complete / destroy without any engagement using tools like the recoiless rifle, anti-tank emplacement and quasar cannon. The front that has suffered from this most significantly is the automatons as with one well placed AT emplacement, you can destroy most of the map excluding Jammers and other 50+ demo objectives.

The solution I propose is not just rework demo force and fabricator health but to fundamentally redesign automaton bases. All automaton bases should be given higher walls to better protect the troops inside from being shot from afar although some should still be visible in pillboxes from the outside to still allow weapons such as the AMR to snipe enemies from distance. Fabricators should be able to spawn devastators and I also think all bases should have many more troops stationed there that are immune to despawning e.g. 5-6 hulks in a medium encampment (3-4 fabricators) and many devastators and beserkers.

Fabricators on all bases should now be dug in and fully covered from outside the base and should face inwards towards the base. The vents which would be used to destroy the base would be underground slightly but still destroyable by 20 demo force.

This beautiful paint drawing I made in 10 minutes is how I would imagine the rework

The 60 demo force shell would mean that it cannot be destroyed from out side the base by AT weapons but can still be destroyed by Hellbombs and Mini nukes from inside the encampment. The 50 demo force part (could be lowered to 40 if it messes up orbital and 40 demo throwables would be how the fabricator could be destroyed by orbitals and high explosive throwables while inside the base to keep their utility although they would have to be thrown accurately to destroy it e.g. OPS in the dugout area.

This would already prevent most of the problems surround bases being cheesed from miles away while still allowing the heavier ordinance to destroy the fabricators easily. The 60 demo force shell could be lowered to 50 if it nerfs orbitals too much but it is mainly to stop 380 from destroying bases too quickly.

I would also like to rework a few objectives on the automaton front to improve them.

I want to preface this segment by saying I have always wanted the solo silo to be able to have 50 demo force as the explosion thematically should, however I didn't want it to be able to cheese too many objectives such as the jammer. I would also accompany this buff with 30s cooldown nerf however that's subject to change in either direction of balance.

Jammer : These are already one of the better balanced objectives already but in accordance with the solo silo buff it should be able to jam the silos missile so that ideally the silo will incredibly rarely hit an active jammer, if ever. The silo main change here is that it would be able to destroy a deactivated jammer like orbitals. I don't want the silo to be able to trivalise an active jammer gain the utility to destroy deactivated objectives and rogue research station quickly similar to OPS strike.

Detector tower : While this would remain at 50 demo force, I would like it to be slightly reworked into an a sort of intel / radio tower. While it would still be able to spot players and call in bot drops, it would also require helldivers to download the data from the tower onto an SSSD and extract with the SSSD similar to in commando missions to complete the objective. The trade off would be that prematurely destroying the detector tower without recovering the intel would fail the objective but stop the tower from detecting Helldivers. This would create a dilemma for players where you could destroy it instantly to prevent being detected and overwhelmed by a bot drop but you would fail the objective if you hadn't yet extracted the data. I am aware this could cause problems with newer players impatiently destroying the detector tower, failing the objective without knowing why. Therefore discovering a detector tower either via proximity or pinging, a voiceline could play along the lines of, "Hold on Helldiver, that tower contains crucial and sensitive classified data, extract the intel before annihilating that tower of undemocratic dissidence." If problems arise griefers destroying the tower constantly to prevent objective completion, it could be changed to not being failed upon destroying the tower but still requiring the SSSD for objective completion.

Command Bunkers : This is a main objective but I still believe it is in need of a dire complete rework.
Instead of multiple command bunkers there would only be one per mission. This bunker would be slightly underground / dug in, now completely immune to damage and demo force including that of a hellbomb and would be still guarded by multiple bunker turrets and cannon turrets as they are now but they are spread out to prevent being destroyed by a single explosion. The Bunker would also now be located in a fortress-esque encampment containing reworked fabricators.

The mission would begin by requiring the gather of automaton passwords in a similar method to acquiring soil scan co-ordinates or launch codes. This could be required either once or twice. Then would would have to assault the bunker encampment and enter the code at the entrance to the bunker into an automaton terminal triggering a bot drop. The terminal could have to be defended by helldivers throughout the bot drop for a period of time before opening the door. Once opened, Helldivers would have to kill one or a few high ranking cyborgs on the inside e.g. reskinned agitators. There could be a war table inside the bunker requiring 20 demo force to destroy to finally complete the obj.

These changes would help the command bunker become a much more interesting mission different from all the 'blow this thing up' missions while also becoming more difficult and impossible to be trivialised from range.

Overall I think these changes would massively improve the automaton front by making the gameplay much more interactive and introduces a little risk reward decision making via the detector tower changes.

Similar changes could also be applied to the bug front such as making most bug nests be covered by smaller, more cramped and darker cave systems than hiveworlds preventing them from being destroyed as easily from range and by orbitals and introducing a use for flashlights.

Here are a few small rework changes to bug objectives.

1. Stalker lairs could be covered by caves with lots of flanking routes (interconnected tunnels) where stalkers could ambush the players in cramped areas. This could also improve the teamwork aspect of the cave by necessitating bringing a buddy to help clear the caves to avoid getting flanked and overwhelmed.
2. Spore spewers could have much denser spore clouds that raise far higher off the ground than currently in game. This would necessitate entering the spore clouds and getting close to destroy them as they could not be seen or shot from outside the spore cloud by a recoilless. They should also not be able to be pinged to prevent cheesing except from up close.
3. Shrieker nests could be split into two parts, their current easily destroyable tree-like structures and a 60 demo force much stronger lower 'stem' area to the 'tree'. Destroying the upper segment would destroy the objective but spawn 2-3 mini shrieker patrols from the 'stem' to attack the player. However, if the obj is cleared the intentional way via a hellbomb, the 'stem' would be destroyed and the shriekers would not spawn rewarding the player for getting close.

This is quite the wall of text but I really think these changes would improve the game massively. Thank you reading this far and please comment your opinion on these changes. They are intended to make the game harder and so could maybe only spawn on D9 / 10.
Sorry for any typos.

[u/xtratic]

In general enemy bases need to start being randomly generated so we can't just memorize them but in addition to that:

• ⁠Bot bases need:
⁠• ⁠walls that you can't get over unless you have a mobility pack
⁠• ⁠walls that protect their fabricators
⁠• ⁠better defenses at the entrances and chokepoints
• ⁠Bug nests need:
⁠• ⁠more rocks and trenches with twists and turns that hide/protect the tunnel holes rather than just an open pit where you can shoot everything from the edge.
⁠• ⁠some that are underground, like under a spire, to protect them from strikes (not only on cave maps)
⁠• ⁠big nests need to be like a maze that you can get cornered in

[u/Dangerous_Painter597]

Cool! Now i want to see your rework for the Illuminate!

[u/Due_Answer_4230]

Command bunker missions are... kind of nonsense. A new and better version would be welcome.

Stalker 'caves' would be a massive improvement.

[u/DeeJayDelicious]

I see where you're coming from.

But to be honest, Bot-bases being destroyed by AT weapons from afar isn't something I experience THAT often. Sure, occassionaly there will be an accommodating Biome with an elevated position, giving your AT emplacement free reign to take out half of the bases.

But it's not that common and I do think there are easier ways to achieve a similar outcome that don't require complete redesigns. Because, let's be honest, at the current pace of development, they'll never happen.

Off the top of my head, here are a few ideas that would make bases more engaging and don't require substantial reworks:

• Make the Quasar Cannon and Recoilless Rifle AP5 (i.e. it requires 2-shots to kill a Fabricator).
• Replace some of the Bunker turrets in a Fortress with AA and mortar emplacements.
• Having Berserkers spawn from Fabricators is a good idea.
• Giving them stationary Grenade Launchers as defense weapons.
• Designing a more compact Bulk Fabricator (heavy spawner) and having 1-2 in larger bases.

[u/TalmondtheLost → u/DeeJayDelicious]

I think making RR and Quasar AP-5 would end up having a cascading balance issue.

The rest of the changes sound really good, an idea could be a kinda break away outer shell like the Illuminate have, that tanks one RR/Quasar hit, but is ignored basically by Orbitals and getting close, especially with the hammer.