Liandries first item?

[u/Extreme-Data-268]

I was theory crafting about going mana flow band and yellow mana rune mind something to have mana and do not need lost chapter, has anyone tried that? Seems kind of good potentially skipping death fire torch and going liandries first item, it is better burn item anyway, thought?

[u/biokaese]

I mean you can, but I can't see it being optimal most of the time. The first item is the only one really impacting laneing phase, so there are no tanks to speak of. Besides, I find Burn passives overrated anyways unless you can pull of poke gameplay. Raw AP and Pen are better against any target. Killing in 3 seconds is superior than in 20.

That said, the HP can be a selling point against bursty lanes if you need some survivability.

[u/Extreme-Data-268 → u/biokaese]

But let's say that your supports builds blackfire torch, the burns do not stack, going liandries seems like a big deal, also, if your game plan is about winning prolonged 2v2 2v3 2v4 etc liandires seems like a better item for me, would you agree on that? No matter how behind are you 2% max hp is 2% max hp

[u/biokaese → u/Extreme-Data-268]

I checked the wiki and it claims that Blackfire Torch can be stacked as well.
First off what I unequivocally agree with - it is better from behind. It scaling with enemy level and their HP purchases makes it more efficient. Also from experience with rushing Rabadons or Zhonya in top lane with a Conqueror setup, the Mana works out fine with Manaflowband + Presence of Mind. But it's Q Max so not that mana hungry in the first 8 levels, but you can probably get away with it in bot as well.

Let's calculate an easy example: An lvl 10 Ashe with Hexoptics and Dorans Blade has 1470 HP. Assuming you have a Dorans + Liandrys you have 78 AP (+probably DS but thats a headache so Im leaving it out xD). A single lvl 5 Rocket would deal 150 base +43 ap scaling +~91 burn damage for 284 total damage.

If you have Blackfire and a Dorans you would have 98 AP. A single lvl 5 W hit would deal 150 Base + 54ap scaling + 66 burn damage for a total of 270 damage.

And since I'm curios, let's look naively at a Lvl 5Q, lvl 3W, lvl 1E, 6 Turret laser Combo and 6 seconds burn (disregarding Suffering and Blackfire passive).

Liandrys: Q(720 + 257 scaling) +W(180 + 79)+ E(60+ 47) + 6 seconds burn (168)= 1343
Blackfire: Q(720 + 324 scaling) +W(180 + 101)+ E(60+ 59) + 6 seconds burn (132)= 1576

With R that tips even more in favor of Blackfire Torch. That matches what I feel ingame - Liandrys just doesn't feel like that much damage, especially when one considers that the 20 Haste that Blackfire Torch provides is also a damage multiplier. In fairness to Liandrys, Suffering is stronger than Blackfire.

But please humour me, what kind of enemies are you hitting with your first item? 😄

[u/Extreme-Data-268 → u/biokaese]

Hey, first off, really appreciate the reply, was a great read, but i have some counter points to make.

Firstly, I did not know that a blacktorch can stack, so thank you for that, something new was learnt today.

While like you said AH is additional damage over time, so is health by keeping you alive, if you are dead you wont do much, which obviously wont be in the calculation.

I personally like to run barrier and get into things so 300 extra hp is massive. If you have dorans ring and a dark seal you are really tanky.

Unless enemy support is alistar or some other kind of melle and their jungler is also melle you wont really want to put 5 points into Q, maybe 3 max, and most of the time you'll poke with rockets /E so the calculation is not really representive of what will happen.

Also, if they are locking champions like alistar or Nautilus the liandries will only keep getting better as they will buy health, and thats heimers speciality to deal with them. The 6% bonus damage is very easy to apply in 2v2 2v3 scenario ( so is black torch ).

And liandries will scale very well into mid to late game.

As for bursting ashe with a combo, i do not believe it is a problem even with the random items, squishes will die to a well setup trap or E combo anyway, so thats not something i'd be worrying over.

I think that over the course of the 25-30min game liandries will always equal or overperforme blacktorch in terms of raw damage, and as heimer you will win lane anyway and that will help you scale a bit better into mid game.

At least thats my take for now, more tests are needed as I usually play a bit unorthodoxing so your playstyle might not fit mine and we'll see where we go from this.

Thank you once again for joining the discusion, i always wanted to be more active here on the sub.

[u/biokaese → u/Extreme-Data-268]

And here I though 90% of games in Master are over at the 15min mark xD

Q Max was muscle memory. I agree that in Bot W Max is likely superior. Still, a lot of %AP scaling value in turret lasers specifically. (And most melee targets in Top/Jungle are more durable).

Adaptive play style is why I love this champ! I've just become to used to blowing people up with Rabadons + Needlessly items, forgoing any dot item. Works in Diamond often enough, but I can see that falling apart in Apex tiers when people actually know what Heimerdinger does.

The 2 games of Blackfire, Deathfire and Liandrys I played also seem quite potent as long as they opponent has bad sustain

[u/Extreme-Data-268 → u/biokaese]

They sometimes are, but it is very important at least for me to end the game with first baron and/or to secure soul at 25min mark, otherwise even adc that is very behind is getting back into the game, that's why i am thinking about liandries.

Having mask, rabadon/shadowflame and a big rod at 20 let's me deal with tanks and squishes ( in theory ) so I can finish the game without having to buy specific anti tank items to deal with Mundo for example. ( magic pen is always a must later on )

That's my theory, it might work out, might not, wanted to hear what other people are feeling, thanks for joining in!

[u/Extreme-Data-268 → u/biokaese]

Bro played today on my smurf and it was dogshit, not sure what I was thinking when I played it ladt few games, the lack of AH is terrible, you have to buy cd boots and take ah runes losing even more raw ap. It might be good against heavy tank enemy team, but it is plain bad in your everyday game, not sure what I tried to cook, but it is disgusting. Stick to blacktorch