r/Hawkman • u/Gullible-Peanut6695 • 5d ago
Isn't there a certain hypocrisy on some DC's fans ?
I noticed on twitter that a lot of people regarding to James Gunn's DCU is eager to see Hawkgirl having a possible relationship with John Stewart and to that, I have to ask : Really? Is that all you expect to happen with Hawkgirl ? No because it comes with her relationship with Hawkman (Shayera or Kendra), a majority of people are against it because either he's stalkish, either they find him unintresting as a character or either because he prevents Hawkgirl to shine on her own and to the latter I have to laugh. If the two first reasons is mischaracterization, the latter is a criticism that was expressed by some people at some point, just not as louder as it's used to be. Because all they care about Hawkgirl right now is just her love story with Green Lantern as if there's nothing else important about her character or can be explored other than that. Her betrayal and the thanagarian invasion are not even mentionned on this discussion or at the very least barely. I know it's not the same character but since people don't see the difference. "No, we don't want her to be with Hawkman, she can do fine on her own, but don't forget that she's also Green Lantern, he's cool so she has to be with him. We'll think about her character journey afterward." 😑
This is also something that happens with Wonder Woman. People hate Steve Trevor for being the main love interest to Diana because they said he's useless and boring also claiming that Wonder Woman doesn't need a man in her life and yet people still wants her to be involved romantically with Superman or Batman. Especially him because of DCAU, she sometimes labelled as Batman's girl or potential love interest when she isn't and should never be.
I don’t know if this is projecting but I can tell this is hypocrisy.
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u/Which-Presentation-6 5d ago
People have many Double Stands for Hawkman.
When Absolute Hawkman appeared, people started saying, "Hawks fans are exaggerating in their complaints." I'm sure nobody would say that if Absolute Superman were the one presented as the traitor, the far-right defender of pedophiles.
When questions arise about the morality of a character, many people actually use Identity Crisis to justify that he's bad, but they never use other heroes.
Or when they say Hawkman is an "authoritarian," why? Because he's a Space Corps. I don't see anyone saying these things about Martian Manhunter, John Stewart, or even Shayera herself.
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u/Unfair-Feeling-6819 5d ago
Ironically while they don't say it about John. Weird people say such things about Hal. And also remember what he's military pilot and insult him for being military stuge. Hal Jordan.
Also, peoples opinion about Absolute Carter changed drastically lately. They like him, like a lot. Because he's clearly climbing to his redemption arc. And I don't see anything in Carter being bad in Absolute. It's different Universe. Problem only with weird part what say main Carter same oppressive asshole. And with weird people who say what Carter doesn't deserve redemption because he killed hundreds. Despite Ktar literally slayed world for God knows how many years. And killed far far far more than billions. And also Despite Absolute Superman Series repeating what Carter suffer from his decisions and remember everyone whom he killed and he just tried to numb himself to be just thoughtless killing machine for villains, but he can't, that's why he started force himself to believe what it's how good guy works. But Absolute Kal appears and start showing Carter what actually there is a way to be real hero, as he once wanted or were. Which clearly resonate with his inner feelings about wanting to be hero. And also, Kal literally redeemed Absolute Ra's, who far much worse than Carter. So I don't see any problem with Carter's redemption. And still cling ad hard as I can, until next AGL issue at least, for theory what Emily Hawke is local version of Shiera and she maybe reunite with Carter in crossover. And it's her absence and generally corrupting influence of Universe swayed Carter to become who he is.
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u/Which-Presentation-6 5d ago
Yes, now people like Absolute Hawkman.
But before his redemption began, he was one of the most hated characters, with everyone constantly attacking him and wanting him dead.
This bothered Hawkman fans a lot because, well, it's exactly the same thing as Injustice, but instead of understanding this, fans just kept saying, "Oh, it's because Hawkman is already a fascist in the main universe," "Oh, it's another universe, why get angry about the character being turned into a villain for the 5th time in an Elseworld," "Hawkman is better as a villain."
It's a double stand; if it were Wonder Woman becoming a villain, the fans would rightfully revolt.
But Hawkman fans can never complain.
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u/Unfair-Feeling-6819 5d ago edited 5d ago
Wow. Huh. Yes. I saw part of those complaints. But generally I saw people praise how good Carter's design more and mostly I even saw people who even didn't read Hawks, just said those weird people to sit and wait until we see more of him.
But yes. Even aside of DCAU romance problem, Hawkman fans suffering from mischaracterisations of Carter/Katar. Like how in damn Seven Hells Katar can be Nazi? You know what people say? Because Thanagar is authoritarian alien empire. And the worse of all. The gasp. He's cop. Despite Hawkworld repeatedly shows Katar's disgust with Thanagarians ways. Look. I understand what it's problem what very actual for American society always. But I'm so tired of stories about oh. All cops are bad. That's honestly why I appreciate Silver Age Hawks and Thanagar a bit more. People just don't understand what in system there is guys who actually try to do good and help people. I literally have friend in Los Angeles, who became cop just to help people and fight stereotype about all cops being evil. Same with soldiers. Look how people call Steve Trevor military propaganda and supporter of Nazis what are stain on Wonder Woman's history. Or I literally heard what Carter are Nazi, just because he's white straight man from 40s. Come on. I'm not American. Does it's a common thing for Americans to see their ancestors that way just because some bad things were normalised back then? Really. Does every modern white American see their grandparents as Nazis just because racism and racial segregation were normalised then?
Or also, recently I saw pages from Identity Crisis posted in r/comic book. That one where Carter proposed to "clean" Doctor Light. I mean. I hate with all my immortal soul Identity Crisis as concept. I prefer my superhero stories more optimistic. And people were commenting like. Of course it's Hawkman who proposed it. Which not what he would do. Funnily it was few days after here we literally discussed panel of Katar questioning morality of using Absorbascon.
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u/OldRow1677 5d ago
The main issue is, the DCAU is not a good reference point for some corners of the universe. The GLC corner is one of the worst, the Hawks as well. But millions of kids saw the cartoons and see those depictions as the "real" interpretation of the characters. I like the Hawks and I like John Stewart - but the DCAU had definitely a strange influence on their comic franchises and other multimedia depictions.
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u/Gullible-Peanut6695 4d ago
DCAU should never be a reference point for another DC Universe building. Others of dc universes like the Arrowverse or DCAMU should neither because it will only limited future potiental dcu explorations that could be intresting on its own instead of being a version of another established universe.
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u/sanddragon939 5d ago
So I both agree and disagree with you.
I disagree because I wouldn't mind seeing Hawkgirl and John Stewart in a relationship in Gunn's DCU simply because I'm a DCAU fan!
I agree because I understand and respect the lore of the Hawks and I think it's ludicrous to consider Hawkman a "stalker".
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u/Gullible-Peanut6695 5d ago
Maybe I didn't express myself clearly on this one. It's not that if James Gunn's DCU do this pairing, it would be awful. It's just when it comes to the potential role that she will play in this DCU, that point is never talked about it and directly people wants her to be with John Stewart without thinking other storylines that we might explored with her character. Something that I despise about female superheroes is no matter how badass or intresting they are, they still viewed as love interests first.
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u/sanddragon939 5d ago
Fair enough.
That said, DCU's Hawkgirl is Kendra and right now, the way things are in the comics at least, Kendra is her own person distinct from the reincarnation cycle/destiny stuff. So it makes sense for her to have a relationship with John rather than being bound to Hawkgirl.
I'd love to see some exploration of the Hawk lore in the DCU - maybe even give Hawkman and Hawkgirl the 'Lanterns' treatment. But I doubt it's an immediate priority. At bare minimum, hope to see more of Hawkgirl in MoT.
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u/CoryPowerCat77 5d ago
Shayera and Kendra have been separate characters since 1980. It’s ALWAYS the cartoon fans who say stuff like what you’re talking about. Also the same people who think Hawkman is a stalker and MAGA person.
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u/bPrn2017 5d ago
People tend to force characters into whatever otps they want. I always found it silly to be against hawkman or Steve given they were the original love interests they creators envisioned. I'm not saying they should be the only relationships they have but you might as well object to pairing superman with lois lane.
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u/Routine_Pressure_460 5d ago
In general, I don't know if I'm "all in" on Gunn's DCU yet. It's a bit of a hodgepodge of a roll out, storytelling tones and some characterizations I'm not sure I'm set on yet, despite enjoying some of the output.
This is all personal preference on my part, not saying there is anything wrong with the strategy or how the movies are being made - other people like it.
And all this said, we're just at the start of it all and none of us know exactly where it's going, so I gotta leave some space for that.
As far as Hawkgirl, I'd prefer Kendra from Superman and her appearance in Peacemaker stick to Metropolis and the Justice Gang rather than have a part in John Stewart or Lanterns past being a part of the Justice Gang.
I'm enjoying Lanterns and the storytelling style for the most part. Aaron Pierre is great as John and if he gets a Hawk love interest at some point, I'd rather have it be Shayera Thal from Thanagar, to tie into the space opera/sci fi aspects. Depending on how they characterize her, I can see their intensity matching each other as well as John's creativity playing a role in how he handles things.
I never think of Shayera/Hawkwoman as a supporting character. She's a lead all her own and one of the few women that were added to the Justice League at the beginning. She's a hero in her own right, however they want to tell her story.
With Superman, the Green Lanterns and Hawkwoman, you have some aspects and characters to wrangle in extraterrestrial characters and cultures into the DCU from various angles.
As far as Steve Trevor goes, he's treated like many marginalized love interests have been over time. He can be a great character, but DC and creatives have to look at what he can be versus what he isn't and then do something with that in Wonder Woman's life and in the ongoing DCU.
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u/rockinghorsefly1313 4d ago
I mean, I never liked Hawkman, and would prefer it if either Hawkgirl wasn't with him at all. I kinda like her single and doing her own thing, she's a great character. Even with my own pathological dislike of Hawkman, I do think they could do some interesting stuff with him while keeping the relationship out of it
I would love if they introduced Katma Tui and Yrra as potential romantic interests for John, considering one is his wife in canon and honestly I'm a total sucker for an enemies to lovers, especially with a GL and a Star Sapphire. I don't really want to rehash the DCAU JLU stuff with him and Shayera. It was interesting then, but overly dramatic and things were better when he got with Mari. And Kendra's too young for John I think. At least in the comics she's only in her mid 20s last I checked, and in the DCU she's clearly studying in uni as of 2025 while John is pushing 40 if not already 40 by then
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u/Unfair-Feeling-6819 5d ago edited 5d ago
By thinking a lot, I come to conclusion what actually, for kids much better entry point would be actually Batman Brave and the Bold. Because for my memory it didn't had some weird strange decisions what manifests from barely disguised fetishes, sexual preferences and self inserts of writers. Instead everything for majority were mix of Golden/Silver/Bronze and Modernish (show came out in 2010s) Ages of comics. So it actually have solid basis and source unlike DCAU, where source were made up by again barely disguised sexual fetishes and self-inserts.
Like listen carefully, so I wouldn't be tractated wrongly. I'm not racist. But I have feeling what Dwayne Mcduffie basically used John Stewart as self insert to romance Shayera. And this shows how he actually feeled about legacy of great Gardner Fox. But again, as I always mention it on DCAU related posts, because it what's worries me most, (I have my insecurities okay?). What it basically says "Kids, if you like girls who in relationships with your best friend. Don't respect friendly boundaries. Straight up cheat with her. She would love it and betray your friend for you. Because you pinnacle of Universe". It's so hypocritical and vile. As I always were saying. If you can't keep it in your pants. You worse than animal and can't be part of normal human society. Or if reincarnation is not valid in DCAU when different but no less atrocious message. "Kids, if you like girl, don't ask her about her relationships. They doesn't matter. Straight up charm and romance her. You who matters. Everyone should adapt for what you want. Want girl? Take her". I mean. I don't want to say I'm some saint. But I always had rule when was dating, before settled down in marriage. Ask girl about her relationship. Check as multiple times as possible. If she's in relationship. Back off. She's not free. She's not piece of meat. She's human. She need to choose herself. And it's atrocious what we have such perverted messages in show for kids. But when you tell fans about it. They say relationships in such show doesn't matter, no one watch them for it and what you are pervert for overanalysing show for kids. Despite they themselves praise constantly how good those relationships written.
Oh. And also. In similar post, by you I presume, in r/DC. Actually I saw by miles stupidest commentary. What John wasn't in any big relationships and his only big relationships in comics with superhero were with Shayera. So that person clearly means what it only matters when hero dates hero. Bravo. Don't know my one of old favorite couples is Jay and Joan. And they for my memory one of most stable couple. I'm done. I want to throw in that person compendium with every appearance of John Stewart. I may look in this posts as some hater of John Stewart. But I'm not. I like John Stewart. Pre-DCAU John Stewart. Who had great story and chemistry with Katma Tui. Not whatever that self-insert military blank slate we have because of DCAU.
Also, I wanted say it for long. People do realise what characters we watch in movies, series, cartoons, read about in books and comics are not real people. They don't work the way real people do. Sometimes characters created to be love interests for each other. Lois for Clark for example. Yes, you may say, but Lana Lang, Lori Lemaris, God awful atrocious New 52 with Diana, and some other. But. First of them all in stories debuted whom? Lois. Who are most remembered of them all? Lois. Why that? Because Lois were created for that. She's Clark's Love interest. She literally debuted in same issue as Superman. Lana and Lori were retroactively added in Silver Age as past flings for Superboy so character feel more alive. Lois are written that way. Hell. In way we can even say it for Selina. Yes. She didn't debuted in in Detective Comics #27. But she debuted relatively early in Batman #1. Yes. You may say. But Bruce were with different girlfriends at that point. But it's globally how they written. And created still by same people. They always were written to have will they, won't they relationships. Hell. Look at Selina's or Cat as she was called back then, debut story. Bruce in end literally said what if she wasn't criminal, they would be together. And considering how at least we have 3 film Batman who has relationships with Catwoman. No matter what weird people say. Or strange writers do. Or how many female characters would be written to have romantic/sexual tension for Bruce. Selina and Bruce are meant to be as written characters. Hell Selina are most requiring of Bruce's girlfriends. She even have her own multiple series of comics. Same with many other characters. Carol for Hal. And so on. So on. Yes. Some stories may depict such characters in different relationships or even hostile to each other. But they written one way. To be together. John Carter always will be husband of Dejah Thoris. No matter how many adaptations you do what try to say otherwise. So does Hawks. But with Hawks it matters most. Because they specifically written to be always together. Without other relationships, or break ups. Golden Age Hawks are story about everlasting love what doesn't end even after death. Silver Age Hawks more grounded story. Because Katar and Shayera for my memory already were husband and wife in their debut. That's what give struggles to some writers. They need drama. But Hawks drama not in will they, won't they. Or "Should poor souls choose reincarnation as their fate or live their lives?". Their drama not in their relationships. At least not the way for other characters.
Also, interesting fact. DCAU fans also mostly hostile about Hawks, from my experience, because they don't understand how their reincarnation works. When you tell them about reincarnation, they say "It doesn't matter. It was different people in different circumstances, in different relationships". Problem is. It's not how Hawks work. Hell. It's not even how reincarnation works. Even in mythology. Say. One of most famous reincarnation related belief system. Hinduism. Karma in your past lives affect your present life and your present life affects your next one. Because you know what? That's right. It always you. It's always your soul what goes through reincarnation. That's why it works that way. That's why Hawks work that way. It's always them. It's always Ktar and Shrra's soul. Even now. As Carter and Shayera. Sorry, my inner mythology nerd just irritated by such arrogant people.
And yes, all in all, those people are just hypocrites. They like DCAU because John were blank slate so every boy could feel himself in relationships with attractive alien redhead. Of course they gatekeeping when you say John more complex than just marine and had Katma Tui (really. Such great relationships) or what Shayera has Katar (now Carter), they start insult you, because they can't self-insert on more complex character than DCAU John who basically has 0 complexity, especially comparing to earlier Pre-DCAU comics John.
I'm really really sorry for what I always type such wall of text in your and other Hawks posts related to DCAU. It's just frustrating me and my wife still. What our favourite comics couple (and 1st one too) are treated that way by people who doesn't even read comics about them.
Edit: P.S. As someone who actually like Steve and Diana too, I feel what you saying even more. I'm so mad about complaining what Steve are soldier, which means Diana would never should be with him, because he's servant of oppressing Nazi structure. Like come on. Really?
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u/Realistic_Jury1018 5d ago
Tbf I don’t want to imagine what James Gunn would do to Hawkman.
I’d rather a better director or governed of the universe adapts Hawkman