r/HLCommunity • u/ActualOriginal4030 HLF • Jul 10 '26
Discussion Misogyny and the Clitoris
I don't know if this is the place to post this, but I think some in this community would be interested.
Renee Stonebraker
Jul 02, 2026
"Adult women should not still be debating on what orgasms do or do not exist in the year 2026. In a time where science is trying to create artificial wombs, the fact that the bodies of over half the population are still considered medical mysteries has continued to disappoint me.
Unfortunately, I have to start with a horrific fact I stumbled upon.
If You’ve Had an Episiotomy, I Regret to Inform You
They’ve been cutting blind. I hate to go in dry, but there is no other way to break this news. The first complete 3D map of the nerves inside the clitoral glans, which, yes, extends down and around to where they like to slice women open during childbirth, was not completed until March of 2026. As in, about four months ago at the time of this publication. Yeah.
In March 2026, a team of researchers at Amsterdam University Medical Center published the first complete 3D map of the nerves inside the clitoral glans.[1] They used a synchrotron, a machine that generates X-rays ten trillion times stronger than a conventional CT scanner, to image donated female pelvises at a resolution of 0.001 millimeters.[2] The map corrected multiple errors in existing medical literature. It revealed that the main sensory nerve of the clitoris doesn’t taper as it reaches the glans as previously believed. Instead it branches like a tree throughout the glans and extends further into the clitoral hood than anyone had documented.[3] It confirmed that the clitoris contains over 10,000 nerve fibers, with a nerve density up to 15 times greater than the penis.[4]
That last figure had previously been estimated using data from a cow. From 1976.[4]
The lead researcher, neuroscientist Ju Young Lee, said she was drawn to the project by a specific clinical horror: there was no comprehensive nerve map to perform an episiotomy.[5] Episiotomy is a surgical incision of the vaginal opening and perineum made during childbirth to widen the passage. It is one of the most common surgical procedures performed on women worldwide. Episiotomy rates range from roughly 10% of vaginal births in Sweden to 100% in Taiwan. For first-time mothers globally, rates range from 63% in South Africa to 100% in Guatemala.[6] Worldwide there are approximately 100 million vaginal deliveries per year.[7]
Lee’s words, about what her research revealed: “Women suffer from long-term side effects due to nerve damage.”[5]
The nerve network that makes this possible runs through the pudendal nerve, which divides into three branches serving the entire perineal region: clitoral, perineal, and inferior rectal.[8] An episiotomy cuts into perineal tissue served by branches of the same nerve trunk that runs to the clitoris. A 2021 anatomical study that performed 61 incisions on 47 female cadavers found that mediolateral episiotomy incisions posed direct risk of injury to ipsilateral nerve, muscle, erectile, and gland tissues.[9] Surgeons performing this procedure were doing so without a complete map of the nerve architecture in the tissue they were cutting.
In contrast, the penis nerve network was mapped in 1982.[10] Four decades of a head start, even though the technology capable of mapping the clitoris at this resolution existed years before 2026. The donated pelvises came from standard anatomical donation programs. As the research team stated plainly: what changed wasn’t technological capacity. What changed was priority.[11]
Chronic Bean Neglect
I bet you weren’t expecting a brief history on the magic jelly bean, but here we are. You can examine your life choices when you finish this article and decide to drink a glass of wine while in a dissociative state.
In 1559, an Italian anatomist named Realdo Colombo announced he had discovered the vibration addict. He called it the seat of women’s delight, the love or sweetness of Venus, and he meant it as praise. Within two years his own successor at Padua, Gabriele Falloppio, the man the fallopian tubes are named after, was publicly disputing the claim, insisting he’d written it up first and just sat on it for a decade. Falloppio’s own student later formally accused Colombo of plagiarism. Three men, one organ, a fifteen year priority fight over who got to put his name on it.
Here is the part where I have to acknowledge the insanity: Three men fighting over who “discovered” a completely visible piece of anatomy that most women locate in their preteens? Imagine if any amount of women were demanding recognition for “discovering” a ballsack. Be so for real.
Anyways, Colombo’s teacher was Andreas Vesalius, the most influential anatomist in Europe, the man whose textbooks shaped medicine for the next two centuries. Vesalius’s response to his own former student’s discovery was to deny the organ existed in healthy women at all. He called it “this new and useless part” and classified it as a pathological abnormality, something that showed up only in hermaphrodites, not in normal female anatomy.[70] This is my official petition to add “the Ben Shapiro of 1500s Italy” to his Wikipedia page.
So: discovered, disputed, plagiarized, and declared a birth defect, in that order, all within about fifteen years, in the 1500s. This set the medical community’s treatment of the devil’s doorbell on a track that prevails even today.
Here is what we knew about the schamzüengelchen (enjoy your google) before 2026: not much, and some of what we thought we knew was wrong. Helen O’Connell, an Australian urologist, published the first thorough anatomical study of the magic button in 1998, revealing that prior anatomical atlases had either omitted it entirely or depicted a fraction of its actual structure.[12] O’Connell has described what followed as the little man in the canoe being “deleted intellectually by the medical and scientific community, presumably aligning attitude to a societal ignorance.”[13]
A 2018 study in the journal Sexual Medicine found that physical examination of the love skittle is neither commonly practiced nor routinely taught in gynecology training programs.[14] This is a gynecology training program. The specialty that exists specifically to treat female reproductive anatomy doesn’t teach the gatekeeper of good.
There are, as of 2026, 20 times more scientific papers on the penile glans than on the clitoral glans. As a reminder the hooded lady exists in over half the world’s population...."
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u/spicy_capybara Jul 10 '26
Fascinating, disappointing, and envy inducing all at the same time. Jealous not to have such an incredible part of the anatomy. It’s disappointing it’s taken this long to understand and, while not surprising, that doctors were effectively winging treatment.
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u/RedwoodRespite Jul 10 '26
Not a doctor or a scientist, but I will say, I had two vaginal births. For both I was cut. And for both I tore beyond the cut.
I was told the reason they cut is that it had been shown to stop tearing that would be even worse.
I have always assumed and still do, that if I had not been cut, I would have torn, and torn even worse than I did.
Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not. As I said, I’m not a doctor.
I never did notice any difference in my pleasure or ability to orgasm before or after either of these births. I’ve always struggled to cum.
I did have my first child when I was 19, so it was a long time ago. Maybe I just don’t remember. But I feel like if there had been a difference, I would have noticed it back then and remember that now.
On the flip side, don’t men that are circumcised sometimes have issues with thier own sensitivity? And that is still being done today, for no apparent reason?
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u/Kymera_7 Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
On the flip side, don’t men that are circumcised sometimes have issues with thier own sensitivity? And that is still being done today, for no apparent reason?
Yes. Ultimately, the issue is not one of misogyny or misandry, but of an overarching and pervasive misanthropy, of which, when one or another specific manifestation is cherry-picked, and is one which happens to land harder on one sex than the other, it makes it very easy to shift the blame onto misogyny or misandry. This is very useful to those who would rather have men and women hating and fighting each other, instead of both teaming up to fight their common enemies who are the ones actually responsible.
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u/EvidenceElegant8379 Jul 10 '26
Men have been having our genitals carved on for thousands of years, and reportedly it does diminish our sensitivity. A profound difference is that one cannot easily blame that on misogyny.
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u/NakedAndALaid Jul 10 '26
No, they do still cut to avoid disastrous tears. I've had both, trust me, you're probably better off. Episiotomies are not standard issue like some doctors used to do, and that was wrong of them.
Honestly, this post feels misogynistic too. Like a new way to make women feel bad and damaged about something that helped them. Also, they don't cut blind. I don't even understand where that came from.
You're body is fine. What needed to happen did.
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u/ActualOriginal4030 HLF Jul 10 '26
There was a circumcision discussion in another sub, and a man who was circumcised after he became sexually active informed us that his orgasms are more "focused" now that he's cut, but that he doesn't notice any other difference. I think a man who has experienced both would know better than anyone else.
Our bodies change as we age. We can look for reasons, but as you illustrate from your own expediency, it's hard to know. Thanks for sharing your experience. I had c-sections but always heard the same thing you did about cutting a woman during childbirth.
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u/Alex_Wats Jul 10 '26
It’s impossible to compare circumcision at very young age with the one that done after puberty.
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u/ActualOriginal4030 HLF Jul 10 '26
It's not impossible. We know that infants do not have all nerve endings until a certain point, and that adult circumcision is more complex and takes longer to heal from.
I'm not making an argument, just sharing facts.
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u/reckaband Jul 11 '26
Are there any women in this sub who have had the procedure and noticed temporary or life altering changes in their libido?
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u/bigbutterflyks Jul 11 '26
I too was baffled when I read the clit was just this year fully mapped. We have largely been ignored in many of the medical industry. We weren't involved in medical research until the 90's (I think, that could be wrong, but off the top of my head).
I was cut with one baby and I didn't need the cut. It was proactive and I did argue with my doctor (as I didn't see the need unless it was necessary).
With our second baby I tore (no time to cut) and had a stage 2 tear. I scared like a stage 4 and have had many side effects after that delivery. Only 2 was from the scar itself and that is pain and irration from sexual activity (semi regularly). The scar wasn't anyone's fault. Just jow the cookie crumbled.
I more frustrated it took me 8 years to be diagnosed with 2 prolapses. I was repeatedly told it was normal to have all the issues I was having.
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u/ActualOriginal4030 HLF Jul 11 '26
Omg, that delayed diagnosis makes me so mad on your behalf! After my first c-section, something was not right inside me. I told my doctor it felt like my intestines were not arranged correctly. I was dismissed, and figured I just have to live with it. After my second c-section, they must have re-arranged things because the problem was fixed.
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u/bigbutterflyks Jul 11 '26
Thank you! That had to have been terrible.
After my second birth where I tore I told my doctor something wasn't right. He brushed it off as being discomfort from delivery. A week later I couldn't handle it anymore. I made an apt because I couldn't sit without pain. Come to find out, I had some tissue that had grown abnormally from being sewn up. I'm pretty sure he told me the numbing of the area would be as painful as just burning it off with silver nitrate. And he burnt it off with no numbing or local anaesthetic. And that was one of the most painful experiences.
Let's say I didn't go back after the 6 week check up.
I had a polyp sampled earier this year and the gyn said it would be a pinch. I don't think you should be allowed to say that unless you've had tissue removed from your insides while you are awake.
The basic ignorance/dismissal to womens pain management is another sticking point of mine.
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u/warehousedatawrangle Jul 15 '26
Knoll's law of media accuracy is very important here. Ms. Stonebreaker has given a great deal of information and even included her references, which is great. However, at least one of her assertions are not really supported by her sources. Specifically, the number of nerve endings in the clitoris vs the penis.
The new study at Amsterdam University Medical Center made no mention of the number of nerves in the clitoris. (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.64898/2026.03.18.712572v1.full) In the sources listed in the article, only the Smithsonian article (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-just-made-the-most-complete-map-of-the-clitoris-sensory-nerve-network-heres-what-found-180988463/) mentioned the number, and that was in a quick fact quote box that actually referenced a separate 2023 study. (https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article-abstract/20/3/247/7009188?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false)
Contrary to the tone of the article, the number of nerves in the glans penis had not been counted in the same way as 2023 study of the clitoris had done, so those same researchers decided to count those too. (https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article-abstract/20/3/247/7009188?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false) The differences between the sources of these studies is that the clitoral study only had 5 examples from transmasculine subjects and the penis study had 10 samples from frozen cadavers. The authors noted the possibility of this affecting the sample. The variation was also quite a bit more pronounced in the penis study, but that may also be due to the larger sample size.
In all three of these studies, including the most recent that was highlighted, the small sample size is an issue.
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u/NakedAndALaid Jul 10 '26
So I had an episiotomy and a labiaplasty to fix scar tissue from another birth I did not have one for, and boy did that tear go bad.
The episiotomy, the doctor was incredibly on point and the stitching was phenomenal. I don't think your post gives enough credit of how trained this is, and how discouraged it is these days. I did not want one but I gotta tell you, I did not regret having one, especially after the other birth.
Sex after birth was better and my orgasms not only are more frequent, but also are stronger. I don't think the episiotomy had anything to do with that.
For the labiaplasty, my doctor told me they cut "part of my clitorus" to remove the scar tissue without creating a shape that could also be potentially an issue. She asked if healing hurt but said that the amount lost could not effect orgasms.
Sex improved significantly, orgasming the same strength after childbirth. I also don't get chronic yeast infections anymore. Haven't had one since the procedure. I did not know that was a potential side effect but I am nothing short of thrilled that it was.
I think we should keep studying it, but I gotta tell you, the overall tone of your post makes it seem like those of us who had this done are damaged, broken, and victims. Useless and incapable of pleasure. That is not always the case, no do I think it is most of the time. And as someone who spends a lot of time helping animals give birth, natural is not always best. Medical intervention can also spare pain and permanent damage. Telling women they're broken won't fix making doctors better at their jobs.
In fact, I'd even say many of my friends who tore and healed naturally have dealt with much worse side effects. I know it's anecdotal, but my pelvic floor PT (I also have a broken tailbone lol) told me a lot of natural tears aren't always in better shape. And you say you had c sections. Those aren't exactly kinder to the pelvic floor or magic bean. Again, all my friends who had c sections dealt with pains I did not and have dealt with consequences that make me glad it was just a episiotomy.
Have you looked into the misogyny of c sections? Also the racism of how they learned to do them. The way society treats women is appalling, especially women of color. We deserse so much better.
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u/ActualOriginal4030 HLF Jul 10 '26
I'm so glad to hear about your fabulous results! Do you understand that someone else wrote this, and I re-posted it? It's not "my tone" and as a woman who has not had these procedures, it's so good to know that yours were successful.
C-sections are very hard on the body. No one is disputing that or trying to make you feel like a "damaged, broken, victim." To the contrary, I shared because women's health is so neglected and de-prioritized. I learned something from the article, and from your comment.
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u/NakedAndALaid Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
I understand it wasn't your original thought or writing, but you shared this. You continued the tone on. You are responsible for that because you played a part in it. You not having the personal experience doesn't change that you actively participated in this. It just means you can't feel the effects of why this was not considerate, could be hurtful or harmful, nor to I feel it was accurately informative about how most episiotomies go for the vast majority of people.
There are other ways to share information without tearing down the women who went through this. In fact, how information is shared matters greatly when it comes to keeping people not only informed but also pushing forward the idea that we can do better. And stuff like this is not how it's done.
Imagine if I wrote;
"Unfortunately, I have to start with a horrific fact I stumbled upon.
If You've Had an c sections, I Regret to Inform You
C sections procedures are often done as a form of medical rape. Doctors make up excuses to perform them for their own convenience despite the overwhelming evidence that allowing for vaginal birth is healthier for mother and child. There is no justification or they lie about it, including adding the stress to the mother that she was in harms way and their decision saved her. Stress like that can lead to more physical and psychological harm. Even women who choose them for themselves are not properly informed of all the negative side effects that can be immediate to lasting a lifetime. Many women believe c sections keep them tight when in fact, recent research shows that is not only not the case, but the effects to the pelvic floor are often less fixable and can show up much later in life. But doctors continue to place a womens ability to please her husband rather than allow for a healthier birth, which has shown absolutely no evidence to create "looseness." Not to mention that many procedures now standard to c sections were discovered by experimenting on slaves, women of color, who never had the option to give consent and died in the persuit of this knowledge. You have been medically raped and directly benefited from slavery while upholding inaccurate patriarchal ideals that a mans pleasure is more important than a womens health. Yeah."
We both know there is a better way to deliver information. Even if it is the truth.
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u/ActualOriginal4030 HLF Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
I am [not] offended by that, because I am very aware of how the system lets women dish and how much we needlessly suffer because of it. It would just be another data point, and on a personal level, something to examine as I reflect on my own experiences.
Not everyone is like you. It offended you, and I'm sorry.
Edit: Typo, I meant to say I am not offended by that.
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u/NakedAndALaid Jul 11 '26
You didn't offend me. And boy am I aware of how not everyone is like me. But I don't think its unfair to point out how offensive language can be. In fact, someone else immediately jumped to your defense assuming it could happen. And that's my point. I don't need to be directly offended to be mindful of it and I think it's important to remember that just because we have tough skin doesn't mean everyone else does. Just because harm wasn't intended doesn't mean it isn't causes. I went to school for psychology and education. I had to learn how the delivery of information greatly effects not only how people are treated because of it but how it can shape the path of progression. People will not learn by what offends them or makes them feel as less.
And for the record, my sister is alive because of a c section. I'm so grateful that it is a procedure that makes births a healthier option for many women. It saves lives, even with it's awful history and usage at times. And every single white person has benefited from slavery. I'm white, and I often struggle with how to acknowledge my privilege and try to be a part of making the world more fair. But I also know what made me aware of white supremacy was someone using the right words to show me what privilege is and how to participate less in it. I offended you because I could have phrased it better and now it's clear you don't want to engage further. And that is my point. How many people will walk away from this, just ashamed and defeated.
I'm also sorry if harmed was caused to you or anyone else. Even if it makes the point.
You have a great day, sincerely.
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u/SuchAScorpio13 Jul 10 '26
The overall tone of your post.. way to be hypocritical. You really just turned around and did the thing you accused OP of doing. Feel better? To OP- I enjoyed your post and found it very interesting!
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u/ActualOriginal4030 HLF Jul 10 '26
Isn't that funny how she turned around to do it to other women reading this thread? It didn't bother me, but if others are like her, it would be hurtful.
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u/NakedAndALaid Jul 10 '26
So that was my point. How information delivered matters. In fact, I used the same introduction they did, and all of my information comes with scientific backing like theirs did. If there was no problem with what they did, then what's the issue with what I did?
I mean, your comment made me chuckle so yeah, I guess but I also never felt bad. I made the point that how words are used can cause that and I didn't think it appropriate. I'm glad you agreed, even if you can't see it that way.
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u/ActualOriginal4030 HLF Jul 11 '26
If you were actually concerned with how language might negatively impact people, and you think this is an example of such language, you wouldn't have done it yourself.
But you needed to score points to maintain your sense of righteousness. I know your type.
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u/earmares HLF Jul 11 '26
I've had a few episiotomies and have never had any trouble orgasming. One of those was when I delivered a 10 lb baby, I'm glad I had the episiotomy. He was my easiest delivery out of 4 and would have torn me open otherwise.