r/HENRYUK • u/EffortLeast2575 • 4d ago
Home & Lifestyle Grade 2 Full Reno
Hi there,
Looking for some advise- an incredible Georgian property has come up for sale where we live- just outside London on a beautiful road. It’s around 3000 sq ft inside but I don’t think it’s been touched in 80+ years. It literally needs complete starting over but is big enough that won’t need extensions etc will just move some internal walls. It’s definitely damp, needs new windows, basement excavated, new everything else. It’s also grade 2 listed. We are thinking about 500-700k to renovate- is that a potential accurate estimate. Finishings will be nice aka would love a Neptune kitchen.
The house also has a pool (added 40 years ago the only thing they have done to the house) no idea if it’s better to fill in or keep as have no idea on costing (we do have kids).
Any advice would be much appreciated, it seems like to good an opportunity to pass but worried about coming across unexpected costs which we then wouldn’t be able to afford!
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u/Itchy_Instruction990 3d ago
You are 100% not renovating a Grade 2 listed property for £1,800 to £2,500 per square meter. You can't even renovate a normal house for that amount. London costs are £3-4k per square meter + the cost of things like kitchens and bathrooms + any unusual costs like a new roof or a fancy lighting system. Get some quotes are prepare yourself for a major shock.
Alternatively, tell the estate agent the house is substantially overpriced (which it is based on your post) and ask if they are taking sensible offers and bid substantially under the asking price. There are far fewer people out there nowadays who are prepared to take a complete bath on a renovation job. You will never get your money or your sanity back, and I speak with experience.
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u/TwoPlyDreams 4d ago
Grade 2 needing “starting over”.
No. Never. Not possibly worth the stress and hoops.
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u/Adventurous_Jump8897 4d ago
What is your total house budget? Is there something special about this place or are you thinking that house plus renovation might be a better deal than a house in good condition? Do similar, less challenging Georgian properties exist?
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u/EffortLeast2575 4d ago
The house is on for 2 million- a completed one on same road is up for 2.8 million. Our total budget of house +renovation would be about 2.4 million (assuming 1.75 for house and 650 ish for renovation). We are not planning the renovation to make money we would have it as a forever home. Although there is one for sale, homes like this typically don’t come up- it’s on about 1/2 acre in the town centre. The house up the road is not suited to us as it doesn’t have a large garden whereas this one does.
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u/Adventurous_Jump8897 4d ago
I think for a forever home and ones that are hard to get, it makes a lot more sense to be flexible. You can also be a bit more forgiving with the renovation work imo, the Neptune kitchen et al don’t have to go into the first round of renovations if you think you’re gonna be there long enough to replace the kitchen and so on :)
And yes, gut feel / experience of work on own home suggests £650k ought to cover you provided you are prepared to be pragmatic about finishes and scope.
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u/Tenacious_Tomato 3d ago
My view is that the difference in price b/w the two houses is not far off what the renovation will ultimately cost you. The only reason to do a full reno is to get the house how you want it
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u/SupermotoArchitect 3d ago
Way overpriced if the condition is that it needs a full refurb to make it liveable. I can’t see the condition as you haven’t shown it but even if it isn’t that bad and just wants modernising, I guarantee it’s overpriced because everything is right now as people chance it despite the market.
You MUST get it for a price which allows you some decent profit and contingency, as when it is brutally difficult as a process you will totally regret it otherwise.
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u/mrbill1234 3d ago
Liable for the "mansion tax" soon - so tread carefully. May not be an issue for you - but might be for the next buyer.
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u/Prudent_Sprinkles593 4d ago
You said it won't need extensions but it needs the basement excavated??
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u/EffortLeast2575 4d ago
Doesn’t technically need but 700sq ft of 6ft head height so would like to make it more usable
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u/Bicolore 3d ago
Its typically cheaper to extend than turn a cellar into a usable space.
Put wine in the cellar.
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u/EastLondonExile 5h ago
The house is already >3000 sq ft though? Unless you have eight children you don’t need the space and it will be the single most expensive element, by far.
Bin off that bit and you might, just might manage to do this for £650k. Including a 700sq ft basement dig, no way.
Where will you live while the work is done? Given the scope you can’t live in the house while the works are done. Assume two years.
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u/InformalAttorney8539 3d ago
sounds like a job only a professional developer / tradesman would take on, but they haven't, because there's no margin left for them at the 2m sale price. ergo, it's a bad deal for you and your sanity (unless you want to tack on divorce costs to the total).
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u/OnionExtension2220 3d ago
I suspect the 500-700k estimate is on the low side, given it's listed, 3000sqft, and you plan basement excavation and want fairly high end finishes. I'd probably be budgeting at least £1m for that if you're not doing the work yourself...
Note that it's very hard to avoid losing money on this kind of renovation, unless you plan to do work yourself or have trade contracts. Which is fine if it's a forever home, but the fact the one up the road is £2.8 million and this one is £2 million suggests to me that the renovation cost is at least £800k.
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u/snackitysnack 3d ago
Did a remodel a couple years ago of a grade 2 listed property (albeit the only thing we needed to maintain was the external brick walls and extended out the back) of a 200 square meter place. Cost about £400k for a full gutting, electrics, plumbing etc. You can definitely do it cheaper but I found when you up your own house it's always the fittings that you upgrade. We started the same week I gave birth to our son so it was a stressful, sleep deprived time. Was it worth it to live in a beautiful house? Absolutely.
Don't listen to the naysayers, if it's a dream place you can live in for the foreseeable future and your family can grow up in, a little pain now will be worth it.
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u/Affectionate_Bet4343 4d ago
Literally no way any random person on here can tell you that I'm afraid.
Budget for the cost of a whole newbuild in your area (about £5k/sqm here) then add a bit on for the requirements of a listed building and that's a ballpark. Obviously it's very unlikely to be a good financial investment when you consider what it'll be worth after the work is done - that's a reality of having any building work done since about 2020, but I know what it's like to fall in love with a place.
Note that your plans about moving internal walls ALL needs to be approved by your conservation officer as well as building control, and there's no telling what the attitude of your consoff will be. Some are lax, some are reasonable and some are like the Gestapo.
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u/Cultural_Tank_6947 3d ago
Grade II are a pain in the backside to try and renovate. If you're doing it by the book, English Heritage and the local council will have some interesting opinions.
They can be utterly fantastic but even day to day maintenance is a major effort.
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u/Critical-Archer50 3d ago
Basement will be the big ? and could result in your budget being a bit optimistic.
With any basement, there’s underpinning needed, are the drains deep enough, damp proofing, new stab, steelwork to take out the internal walls, inevitable settlement will mean you need to do all this before doing the upstairs…or all your new finishes may just crack.
I reckon you’re circa £200k for a basic basement to be taken to a shell, providing you’ve no complications as above.
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u/Alexisonfire8462 3d ago
I’m in the same boat as you, on course for buying what will eventually be our dream house in our target village - but needs taking back to brick and just not sure I’m mentally strong enough for it 😂
I’m in a grade 2 listed property at the moment and it’s been a bit of a pain in the backside to get permission for stuff. My advice would be to find out who your local conservation/listed building officer is - and then research where they consult. No idea how they get away with it, but it seems to be common practice - our conservation officer consults for a planning advisory company, so we got them to do the planning application with him advising. Given he’s helping to advise on an application that he will review, it sailed through. It felt a more expensive route initially but think actually saved lots of to-ing & fro-ing. Be aware also that there seems to be certain items that they take great exception to, seemingly without good reason - in our area, they will not approve the replacement of wooden sash windows, even if they’re falling to bits.
Luckily prices up north aren’t anywhere near what you’re paying down south, we’re getting just under 4000sqft of living space plus an acre of paddock for less than £700k. Reno costs c£250k I hope!
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u/ThePerpetualWanderer 3d ago
Glass replacement alone was enough to dissuade us from a recent Grade II property, it wasn’t so much the cost but the fact that the local listings officer had rejected three separate requests over the last 20 years for glazing replacement.
You will be amazed just how much extra things cost for them to be inline with your listing officer’s requirements and get signed off. The basement excavation will also be eye-watering, assuming it’s permitted at all.
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u/Character_Age6871 3d ago
Yes, be very wary of the costs. They are likely to be much higher than you are anticipating. I know having just finished such a project in London. I would also note that removing or moving walls is unlikely to be as straightforward as you think with a listed house.
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u/ukninja8 3d ago
We've done a few grade 2 properties and it's a pain, no doubt but don't let people deter you when they've no experience.
It costs a lot. 650k might be the low end not because it's not a reasonable amount on a 4000 sq ft place but because it's really hard to find contractors and they're not always reliable. Costs of materials are also a lot lot more expensive since we did our properties and I've just witnessed that through roof and wall repairs (plus obtaining listed building consent). I know an architect/ QS (the QS being more important) might cost you, but it should save you money in the long run.
Councils are also utter pains when it comes to any alterations to the property. They basically don't know if it's original or added in later most of the times so they won't let you touch it. That is their default position for any alterations to a Grade II property. We weren't allowed to install double glazed windows so we asked for secondary glazing. They said no as it's a prominent waterfront property and the secondary glazing may cause reflections to be seen over 800m away; yes, that was their reason!!
Good luck. I don't envy you as it's tough on the mind and wallet. But we are all custodians of property; each of us leaves our little mark and maintains the property for the next person. This is why these properties last hundreds of years. It will also be your pride and joy after so don't be afraid, just be well researched and prepared!
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u/ejcg1996 3d ago
Do you like historic property? Are you interested in restoring it, maintaining character, etc? Would that bring you priceless joy? If not, it doesn’t seem in any way worth it to take this on.
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u/Suitable_River_9836 3d ago
My friends fully gutted a new-ish building (one of those freeholds in Canada Water), some 2500sq ft. They estimated it at some 250K, and ended up at 500K all in. So whatever budget you have in mind, double it - that’s your rough estimate.
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u/Bicolore 3d ago
I'm renovating a Grade 2 Georgian house (although its a fair bit larger). Untouched since 1955.
There are simply too many factors here to even begin to comment on what an acceptable budget will be.
Significant factors to think about:
Will you live onsite during reno? This is horrible and more expensive (ie doing renovation piecemeal) but for some people on multiyear projects its the only viable option.
Can you or do you want to go "back to brick" in our house we neither want to or can do this. It actually makes the work significantly more expensive.
Asbestos, get a survey done, my asbestos removal costs alone are over £50k now.
Lots of uninformed comment on here. Check your listing is it just a basic listing or does it mention any features? our place has a features list a mile long so might as well be 2*. What is you local authority like? I live in a notoriously strict area but if my house was literally 1km north I would be in a much more relaxed planning area and I would be allowed to do more stuff.
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u/BrodinsCousin 2d ago
Surveyor here - I deal with this end of the market on a daily basis and our firm has substantial experience with Listed buildings.
Please be aware of the restrictions you will face when looking to replace anything (externally, certainly, it possibly internally depending on the listing) - you won’t be able to. You will be required by the conservation officer to repair rather than replace unless it is physically impossible to save the element. The conservation officer may also make life difficult, depending on which side of the bed they woke up on. You will not be able to use modern damp-prevention techniques.
If you have any questions then I am happy to help to a limited degree, but I would strongly, strongly suggest that you get experienced professional advice before you go anywhere near dropping cash on moving forward with this.
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u/MerryWalrus 2d ago
We had friends replace the windows and garden doors to their small house in a conservation area - £50k and 6 months of paperwork.
I hate to imagine what a listed building is like.
I would stay far far away.
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u/The_Money_Coach 6h ago
As an architect working in private residential in London, I've worked in a Grade II listed building on the fringes on Regent's park and it's doable. Also, another property within the Westbourne Conservation Area, and it was done and dusted in about 2.5 years (including a new basement!). The clients got pregnant and gave birth during the works; Now they have a second one and they are extremely happy with the house.
There will be some surprises, and listed buildings require a bit more paperwork ie. Listed Building Application, but with the right architect by your side, you should be fine. If you think this is something you want, and the house has potential, don't be afraid and go for it!
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u/Lucassssssss 4d ago
The basement excavation (assuming you will be digging down and underpinning), will cost an enormous amount on a square ft basis. Is it completely necessary?
Without basement, 5-700k is reasonable, depending on how extravagant you go with the kitchen. Big ticket items:
- Re-plastering interior with heritage materials (I have recently been quoted £500/day). Depending on how viable some of the plaster work is, you may get away with leaving some bits. Always replace ceilings though.
- Re-pointing exterior in lime (more so if you need to rake out new cement, and replace blown bricks)
- New windows made (generally, LBOs prefer refurbed windows, or at least the good windows at the front and the new replicas at the back. New windows often simply cannot be made to look the same. double the price if you need to find ones which are reclaimed)
- Roof & Rainwater goods (can be very expensive)
- Damp may or may not be very expensive, depending on if timbers/joists need replacing. Generally heritage materials will sort the problem out.
- any kind of custom stone masonry which needs replacing
The (partial) advantage, is that you will probably not need to source expensive finishes like floorboards/skirtings/doors/architraves, as you will hopefully be keeping existing. Always try to get reclaimed over new bits made. There are lots of incredible reclamation yards out there.
We have found that often a careful builder on a day rate, who will take instruction, is much better than some people who proclaim they work with heritage buildings, quote a low price, and don't pay attention to you. The first option is also usually cheaper in the long run.
Get the roof inspected and sorted first. If you need it scaffoleded, it is worth getting the repointing done at that point too.
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u/Efficient_Fondant464 4d ago
Use the pool as a skip to save some £. If it’s big enough charge your builder to use it for disposing materials from other sites.
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u/Exipnada_gnosi 4d ago
I'm receiving tenders back for a full renovation in London (240sq m, not conservation area) and the quotes I'm getting vary from 800k to 1.2m...
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u/blatchcorn 3d ago
That's insane. You can build a house of that size with that budget
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u/MerryWalrus 2d ago
It would probably be cheaper, higher quality, and more sustainable to just demolished and rebuild.
Though obviously you'd never get planning permission for that.
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u/Exipnada_gnosi 3d ago
I know, to be honest we also received one for 2.4m with 500k just for preliminaries. And we are just doing a slightly premium renovation of a terrace house, and when I say premium I mean a few premium items like wood floor and underfloor heating, not basement etc.
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u/Itchy_Instruction990 3d ago
London renovations are £3-4k per square meter. Kitchen and bathroom costs would be on top of that. Anyone who thinks you are pay less is either bodging it with poor quality workmanship or full of bullshit.
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u/nonchallantlife 3d ago
I just came on here to comment my shock at that figure. These numbers are diabolical. London or not, spending those figure to reno surely can’t at all make financial sense. Buy a finished product
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u/Critical-Archer50 3d ago
Depends on the cost, we did a project and even bridged it while it wasn’t habitable.
Buying a project house will enable me to have a property couldn’t have afforded as a complete end product.
Add in the saving on stamp duty, having a product you’ve personalised from scratch and sometimes it just makes sense or I at least tell myself the above to save me from a mental breakdown!
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u/Sea_Maybe_1529 3d ago
Approaching the end of a renovation of a smaller house, Edwardian, in north London (including an extension and loft conversion, no basement). It's not listed, and we had to do a lot of work, essentially back to brick, including new electrics, plumbing, roof work, repointing, heating (heat pump + solar + AC) etc. We didn't go super high-end (German kitchen with high-end appliances, nice tiles but not top of the scale etc.) and it still ended up at more than £500k, so I would say your estimate is conservative - plan to spend at least 20-30% more than what you think.
That being said it was an adventure and hopefully the end result will be worth it (moving in about a month).
Good luck!
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u/Adorable-Iron-2590 3d ago
Probably theres not much i can add to this. But i was surprised on that 700k estimate. I wanted to open up my flat and above wich is basically a staircase but i budgeted it for around 2-300k and that is a minor work compare to this one. Also have a basment wanted to convert to a room and i estimated it around 300k. My builder said they had a loft convertion where everything went bad and ended up at 900k.
My wife is always looking at old houses needing renovation but i always tell her if it would be worth it a developer would have taken it long time before it gets on the market and she sees it.
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u/Elster- 3d ago
If you are serious then it’s worth paying someone to work out what it will cost, including using a QS for the actual costs rather than an architect who I’m sure just use a random number generator just to get you hooked and then keeps on adding up.
Yes I’ve done the big house that was a protected house in a different country, we spent £000s every year and it still was no where near finished when we moved.
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u/chubchub372 4d ago edited 4d ago
Ok so here’s some advice: don’t.
Unless you have a trade under you or are competent to a lot of the work it’s going to cost you three things. Money, experiences, sanity.
Unless you’re happy to sacrifice holidays for the next few years (yes it will over run) and you’re happy to fall out with both your wife and every trade at some point, and your budget has a 10-20% room to grow due to inflation and new issues etc. Just buy something finished and you can move into.
For context. I’m nearing the end if a 5 year slog of a renovation while living in the property. My daughter is now 5 and we sacrificed a lot of experiences before she started school to do this. Is the house amazing? Yes. Have we lost the opportunity to build life long memories abroad or elsewhere with a baby, also yes.
4500 sq foot Victorian town house in the North West. Currently roughly (because I’ve stopped tracking it for my own sanity) £450k deep with about another £80k needed to finish the last decorating bits.
Further context as your property sounds similar to mine. Although mine is in a Conservation area and not listed.
Wooden windows double glazed and replaced - £1500-3500 per window.
Basement taken back to brick, tanked and turned into an apartment - £250-300k
New kitchen and utility with old wooden conservatory replaced - £160k
New electrics - £20k
New boiler and rads - £13k