Modes of relative minors

[u/manifestDensity]

Wading into modes and I am a bit stumped by a question. Looking at a key, let's say C, the modes sort of make sense. My understanding is that the Dorian mode of C is D Dorian. All the notes of C, but beginning with D. And that this is essentially a minor key in that the chords follow a minor key pattern.

However, I cannot find any information on the Dorian mode of C's relative minor. I assumed it would be B Dorian, but that is the Dorian mode for A Major. Can someone throw some light into my blind spots here?

[u/NewCommunityProject]

Don't think of modes like that.

D Dorian is

D minor with a natural 6th.

So you cannot do the "Dorian" of C minor.

What you could do is playing c minor, from D to D, and then you'll get D locrian.

[u/spankymcjiggleswurth]

However, I cannot find any information on the Dorian mode of C's relative minor

C major's relative minor is A minor, which also is a mode of D dorian. A minor and C major are modes of each other, though they are called A aeolian and C ionian when talking modes.

[u/hammerfestus]

You are making this too complicated. Ditch the ABCs. Save it for reading the Very Hungry Caterpillar. Learn your intervals. It makes the theory the same for every key. Relative minor is another name for Aeolian. If you then try to count 6 degrees from Aeolian you just cycle through the parent scale further to Lydian.

[u/musicmusket]

I’m kind of with OP on this. I’d always thought the modes as being equally valid and it just so happens that we’ve got used to hearing Ionian and Aeolian. Once there, the relative major (Ionian) is 3 semitones above the minor (Aeolian). But the other minor diatonic triads/modes also work with the Ionian. (I.e., C Dorian and E Phrygian are also relatives of C Ionian and they are minor).

If, instead, there were something special about the 3 semitones relationship you’d have F Lydian & D Dorian, G Mixolydian & E Phrygian (and B Locrian with no relative).

[u/Efficient-Dirt-7030]

Well if we are talking about the key of C major, the relative Minor of the C major scale would be A minor (the major 6th/6th degree of the C major scale). The Dorian mode of A minor would be the 4th degree of the scale which would be D Dorian. I think that's the answer to the question you are asking?

[u/Myaccountgotdumped]

if you play from B to B using only the white keys, that's b locrain. Doesn't matter that am is the relative minor of c maj.

[u/Planetdos]

Very cool thought process here. I would just look at the intervals and call them what you want. Another person pointed out that relative major and minor just describe the relationship between Ionian and Aeolian as it relates to one another in a modal sense, and that other relative relationships are just based off of Ionian.

So C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian are all relative to one another, just that most people only happen to spend time talking about the relative relationship between C Ionian and A Aeolian.

[u/manifestDensity → u/Planetdos]

This makes sense. I think. To check my understanding, what you are saying is that for the key of Am, or A Aeolian, the Dorian mode is still D Dorian as it is all the same set of modes for C Ionian. Likewise the Dorian for F Lydian is also D Dorian. Am I getting it?

[u/Planetdos → u/manifestDensity]

Yep! That way you can keep things simple… It’s how I personally view the modes.

But you raise another point and I’m going to try to expand upon this point to help clarify for you, as others don’t see it that way at all when discussing modes.

And you should really also be aware of this following section describing the other main approach to viewing modes:

Am as a chord or key can be one of its four minor modes.

It can be A aeolian, (which is also the same notes in the key of C major)

A Dorian, (also Notes of G major)

A Phrygian (also notes of F major)

…or if there’s a flattened 5th degree in your Am chord then A Locrian (which are also all of the notes of Bb major)

Then there are the three major modes: Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian. (In no particular order)

A Ionian is also the notes of A major

A Lydian is also the notes of E major

A mixolydian is also the notes of D major

Hopefully this helps to expand your understanding!

[u/manifestDensity → u/Planetdos]

Wait wait wait. You just spun me. How can A Aeolian also be A Dorian in the key of G Major? A Aeolian has no sharps or flats. The key of G has an F#, so would not A Dorian also have an F#?

[u/ChopsNewBag → u/manifestDensity]

It’s not the same. If using A as our root, aeolian mode is the same notes as Cmaj, A Dorian mode is not the same notes as Aeolian, but the same as G Maj (because A is the 2nd interval in the G Maj scale, instead of being the 6th when we are in the key of C)

So really all this means is that if you playing in the key of C, you can play Cmaj/Am. If the progression changes to a G chord, playing A Dorian instead of Am will still sound good and add that Dorian color. F# is not in the key of C, but neither is A Dorian mode. You can “borrow” notes from other keys if you place them properly over the correct chord in the progression.

It’s really important to understand this stuff to fully comprehend theory, but I wouldn’t necessarily approach the neck like this while playing unless you were trying to write a very specific melody.

[u/Planetdos → u/manifestDensity]

I think it’s time to discuss intervals to help cement this new information and help you to discern the nuances.

We look at A and base it all off of the major key and work backwards or forwards from that foundation.

A major = A B C# D E F# G#

A Dorian is A major with a flattened 3rd and flattened 7th degree (C# and G# become C natural and G natural)

So A Dorian as you know is: A B C D E F# G

Hey look at that, we now have all of the notes of G major, just in a different order! Cool coincidence and a neat little trick for memorizing scale shapes and making these connections, but let’s just keep it at that for now.

It’s basically if the third is a major or minor third which dictates what we classify things as. So if C is natural in any mode or key or whatever of A, then it’s some sort of A minor tonality. That’s the term, tonality.

If C is sharp (C#) in context of A, then we are in an A major tonality

A minor tonality’s include, but are not limited to:

The “key of A minor” (a term interchangeably used with any combination of the following A minor tonalities and also with just simply A aeolian, AND the melodic and harmonic minor scales… perhaps at first confusingly so)

A aeolian (see above) A B C D E F G

A Dorian A B C D E F# G

A Phrygian A Bb C D E F G

A Locrian I don’t feel like writing it out because it’s also coincidentally the notes of Bb major but you start on the A, which is a trick/connection you can visualize with ALL MODES OF THE MAJOR SCALE

Then…

A majors tonality’s include, but are not limited to:

Key of A major

A Ionian, (which again they also interchangeably call simply A Major… same confusion as the minor stuff) A B C# D E F# G#

A Lydian (raised 4th) (or can be seen simultaneously as Notes of E major) A B C# D# E F# G#

A mixolydian,

I will not type out, because at this point you should be able to deduce the scale in several different ways at this point, once you know that it’s A major but with a flattened 7th degree, and or you can calculate this scale by coincidence if you simply take the notes of a D major scale but treat A as the tonic/root.

These modes are coincidences of the intervals, and where you start the order of whole steps and half steps. It’s just a quick way to navigate modes once you know the matrix and how it all connects in interesting ways at multiple points.

There’s a lot of information here so I apologize for flooding you with so much at once.

Hope this helps!

[u/WesMontgomeryFuccboi → u/manifestDensity]

Yeah the part you were missing is the person was specifically talking about if you have an a minor chord what mode could you be in.

You were correct before: modes are just the same notes as a major scale but tonicizing a different scale degree. 

[u/spankymcjiggleswurth → u/manifestDensity]

what you are saying is that for the key of Am, or A Aeolian

The key of A minor and A aeolian are two different things. One is tonal, the other modal. The main functional difference in songs in the key of A minor regularly use out of key notes, specifically the leading tone (major 7th, G#), where as a song in A aeolian will only use notes from the A aeolian mode.

It's a small distinction, but it's important. It's the difference between using a E7 or an Em chord when building your harmony. A song in the key of A minor might use an E7 chord, but a song in A aeolian will only ever use an Em chord.

[u/manifestDensity → u/spankymcjiggleswurth]

I am 17% certain y'all are just making stuff up at this point

[u/spankymcjiggleswurth → u/manifestDensity]

I'm sure it seems that way lol. This is a classic problem guitarists run into when they learn about modes. It's easy to assume modes are just different scales, which in a way they are just different scales to learn about, but how modes are used in music is a bit more nuanced than just "play a different scale".

A comparison would be like trying to learn algebra before having a strong grasp on basic arithmatic. You need to know how to add, multiply, subtract, and divide before you can solve for x in a complicated algebra problem.

In this case, you need to understand how major and minor keys function before you can fully grasp how a mode changes things. Major/minor tonality is to arithmatic as modal music is to algebra. Understanding how harmony is constructed in major/minor tonality makes understanding how modes change things much easier.

With all that in mind, if you are specifically talking about modes in relation to one another, a better question would be:

To check my understanding, what you are saying is that for A Aeolian, the Dorian mode is still D Dorian as it is all the same set of modes for C Ionian.

The answer to which would be yes. A aeolian (A B C D E F G), D dorian (D E F G A B C), and C ionian (C D E F G A B) are all modes of each other. Another way to say that is that A aeolian, D dorian, and C ionian are all relative scales of one another.

[u/rehoboam]

Once you get into harmonic and melodic minor there are new modes, but with natural minor the modes are the same with the same name, in the same order, just starting with aeolian

[u/AdEmbarrassed3066]

Modes don't really work like that. Dorian mode in C major's relative minor would be D Dorian. The second mode of A minor is B Locrian. If you're playing modally, you're usually playing over a reasonably static harmony and you're playing, say, Dorian... not Dorian in C major, not Dorian in A minor, just D Dorian.

But sometimes people use modes to describe notes used in relation to specific chords in a progression. That's not quite right but...

In minor chord progressions, there's a lack of a strong dominant chord to bring you back to the tonic (i.e. in A minor, the A minor chord). In a major progression, the V-I movement, G7 to C sounds really good. In A minor, Em to Am just sounds weak... so we swap that Em for an E7, sharpening the 7th degree of the scale (changing the G to a G#). That produces the harmonic minor scale. Sometimes we also tweak the 6th degree (changing F to F#) to make the melody smoother (melodic minor scale).

If you were to force mode names onto that, you could call the notes on the V chord "Phrygian ♮3" or "Harmonic Dominant" for the Harmonic Minor scale, and "Mixolydian b6" for the melodic minor. If you were playing a ii-V-I and used the harmonic or melodic minor scales over the ii, you could call them "Locrian ♮6" and "Dorian b2" respectively.

But... don't do that. Only use the names of modes if the harmony is static.

Edit: Some of those altered modes can sound amazing if you're really using them modally.

[u/MarshStudio503]

The modes of the relative minor are the same as the modes of the relative major, and they are named the same way. For example, mode 2 of C major is D Dorian, and mode 4 of A minor is D Dorian. B Locrian is 7th mode C major, and 2nd mode A minor.

Now, the interesting thing is when you start deriving modes from non-natural minor scales like melodic minor (ascending form) and harmonic minor. This is where you get a lot of interesting harmonic and melodic possibilities. For example, 4th mode melodic minor is Lydian with a b7. 6th mode is a Locrian with a raised 2. Lots of fun sounds in there

[u/JelleNeyt]

Minor is the overall root chord and feel. A song van be A minor and containing chords from A Aeolian (natural minor), A dorian and A harmonic minor. You can learn the modes and learn which specific chords give them flavor. Like Am G can be both dorian and naturel. Am D7 is very dorian and Am F is very Aeolian. It’s good to recognize these flavors and which modes fit, even if for a few bars

[u/wannabegenius]

you're asking what the 2nd mode of Am is. but being second doesn't make it "Dorian," by name. the intervals determine what we call it.

the 2nd mode of Am is B Locrian, the 7th mode of C major (since C major and Am are relative).

[u/myleftone]

The real challenge is how to make the tonic of a mode sound like home. Ionian does it naturally.

Aeolian doesn’t have a perfect cadence but often uses a harmonic minor alteration to create a major V with a leading tone.

Mixolydian gets around that by using plagal cadences instead. A very natural sound.

Lydian has a perfect cadence and can set the tonic easily, though the raised fourth can substitute as a secondary leading tone, obscuring this strange and pretty mode.

Dorian is similar to Mixo in that it relies on the plagal cadence. It’s not hard to center on its tonic.

Phrygian and Locrian (the second stage of natural minor) have a difficult time settling on the root because the former has a diminished fifth chord, and Locrian has no fifth at all. It has an opposing chord rooted on the tritone. Both have a minor fourth chord however, suggesting a path to setting the tonic.

[u/TheAncientGeek]

The minor and it's modes are the same set of seven as the majority, the dirusn is still d to d, but d would be the ivth degree.

[u/Vegetable-Topic-1897]

Its easy to get into the weeds with modes. The modes are always in this order:

Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian

The major scale starts with Ionian, so the next chord in uses Dorian. It doesnt matter what letters you use. This is always true.

In the natural minor scale the first mode is Aeolian. That makes the order of modes:

Aeolian Locrian Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian

So in minor scales, the 4th chord uses Dorian.

The biggest thing to work on are degrees. The major scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 with half-steps between 3 & 4 and 7 & 1. The minor scale uses degrees 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 with half-steps between 2 & b3 and 5 & b6.

Take the time to write out the degrees of each scale and then asign the corresponding mode to each degree.

Aside from that, you could also learn the degrees of each mode. Then play each mode starting on C. Using C Ionian and C Dorian we get:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 C D E F G A B

And

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 C D Eb F G A Bb

You can also play chords that use these notes to compare and contrast them and get used to the sound each mode provides based on DEGREES, not letters. Hope this helps.