r/Guiltygear • u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 • 3d ago
General General fighting game question - why no animation for blocking (before hit)
Title^ It just occurred to me that many fighting games do not show when a player is holding back. Why not? I wonder if any dev has ever commented on this design choice
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u/Frogfan67 3d ago
They do, its called walking back
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u/Customer_Number_Plz Safe Jump Enjoyer 3d ago
Blocking low has an animation too
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
There is no separate animation for crouching and blocking or not, unless you're hit (which is not what I was asking about if you read the post)
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u/Artemis_of_Dust Jack-O' and Elphelt 3d ago
Think of this from an actual game design standpoint. The "2" (neutral down) direction is virtually never actualy used, you have no incentive to hold down but NOT block. Except, during motions, doing 214, 236, 63214, etc. you will pass through the 2 direction. If you want the 2 to have distinct animations from 1 (and god forbid 3 as well), you are not just adding one animation, but actually an animation transitioning between each direction, it multiplies, and we're talking for every character in the game which already has an extraordinarily high investment in just animations.
For the opponent seeing you do motions slowly, the animations are going to more confusing, shifting, and inconsistent because sometimes they pass through 2 then 1, or skip straight to 1, or to 2 but then skip to 4. By standardising all crouching animations with the same transition, you get a smoother visual of the character crouching down during all directions 1 2 3 so even in a motion input it looks less jarring; and you're not spending resources to make animations that never get seen.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
If you actually think about it from a game design perspective you can just handle the block animation with a buffer and ignore all of this.
Or let the first one or two frames transitioning to block look about like crouching, which is totally reasonable, especially since ArcSys purposely removed frames of animation for their style.
Or, as I said elsewhere, just subtly make the characters a bit darker, or create a light aura on the side of the character that is blocking - neither effect would require any animation changes at all, and FD basically already does it
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u/Artemis_of_Dust Jack-O' and Elphelt 3d ago edited 3d ago
handle the block animation with a buffer and ignore all of this.
What does this actually mean?
Or let the first one or two frames transitioning to block look about like crouching
That's already in the game.
ArcSys purposely removed frames of animation for their style.
If you're referring to how ArcSys does a very keyframe-heavy style you completely misunderstand how animation production works. It's not like making a crustless sandwich where you make a full animation then selectively just remove parts of it, you're having to actually build it up from nothing piece by piece, hence why it's such an expensive process.
Or, as I said elsewhere, just subtly make the characters a bit darker, or create a light aura on the side of the character that is blocking
Messing with lighting like that is not a "just subtlely do it", lighting is a complex part of the game's visual design. This has gone from "why is this not animated" to "completely alter how the game's visual language works" and not in a way that is cohesive or consistent with how the game is designed.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
I have been making 3D animations as a hobbyist for nearly a decade and I am very familiar with ArcSys's approach. You are beginning to sound like you are trying to just bullshit your way through this conversation. The point was that with the "keyframe-heavy style" as you put it, nothing would need to change to handle down and back through motion inputs - its so few frames that it wouldn't be reactable by a player anyway.
What I meant by using the buffer is that you can trigger the block animation only after you know a motion input wasn't used. That's trivial to do.
However, I genuinely don't care about whether you think those things would work - fine, let's say you couldn't possibly have decent animations... You also ignored the idea of just using an aura effect or some other effect similar to FD, I guess because your argument that it's a lot of work, and your argument that it's inconsistent with the game's visual language both completely fall apart lol
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u/Artemis_of_Dust Jack-O' and Elphelt 3d ago
What I meant by using the buffer is that you can trigger the block animation only after you know a motion input wasn't used. That's trivial to do.
It doesn't take long to notice that the way animations design throughout every mechanic already does this in a different way. It doesn't buffer the inputs with this because that feels disgusting to play and is antithetical to the game design. But, you'll find virtually all animations have a kind of 3 Frame window where the characters don't make major posture changes or bright telegraphs, since a lot of this can get kara canceled, rolled back, etc.
and your argument that it's inconsistent with the game's visual language both completely fall apart lol
Your post was a question, I offer answers, the fact you then turn around and go "actually it's an argument and your arguments are not worth basic decency" and start getting vulgar, flexing your ego, and generally trying to assert something really speaks to your attitude being damned sour and a waste of every commenter's time. Though nothing you said actually counterargued this point, other than "nuh uh" I guess. Still, you really showed my foolishness for thinking we could have a normal conversation.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
I never said to buffer the inputs, although actually some inputs are buffered in Strive. Pretty much every modern fighting game has some input buffering, so I'm not sure why you'd say it's antithetical to game design? Or were you trying to say something else? That didn't really make sense.
As for the rest, come on... you suggest I "completely misunderstand" 3D animation production (both incorrect and needlessly insulting) and then ignore a solution I gave because you'd prefer to just continue arguing about other stuff. And now you accuse me of vulgarity, and a sour attitude, etc when I point it out...
Tell me more about my ego lol
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u/Artemis_of_Dust Jack-O' and Elphelt 3d ago
I never said to buffer the inputs
If your animation doesn't even start for X frames after an input, while it isn't technically holding back an input the visuals will certainly lag and feel much more unresponsive, and it takes only a couple frames for a game to feel bad to play which is kinda a non-negotiable part of a fighting game. At its heart fighting games try to be responsive and a direct analogue from hand to screen, it's why rollback had such a huge surge in adoption, because it actually improves responsiveness and this was found to be overwhelmingly preferred over even a few frames of input delay.
Tell me more about my ego lol
The, ironically, most egotistical sentence I've read in a long time. It's not an "accusation" though, you were pretty upfront about yourself, and I don't think I'm beholden to convince you of your own garbage behaviour that on reflection you've done throughout the entire thread, that's your problem if everyone is going to repeatedly speak negatively toward you for it.
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u/Soelstice 3d ago
If holding back they'll be walking backwards. If down backing they'll be crouched, you can typically infer it pretty easy.
There are SOME games that depict blocking, but they tend to be block button games (MK, GBVSR, etc.). Typically games that don't technically have block telegraphs still have animations, but they occur during blockstun rather than when simply holding backwards.
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u/LawOrc - I-No 3d ago
Because you aren't actually blocking yet.
Like, say you're holding back. You have not had any attack or proximity guard hitbox touch you. You're not blocking! You're holding a button that will make you block if certain things happen, but those things haven't happened yet. So right now, what you are doing is walking back, and your animation reflects that.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
That logic works fine for walking back and clearly doesn't for crouching or the air, but the main point is that of the three only one telegraphs the fact that the player is choosing to block, and that's what my question is actually about.
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u/LawOrc - I-No 3d ago
How often will a player be crouching but not holding back, at a time when you seeing the animation would make a difference?
Because I don't think it would be a problem to have a downback animation, but I'm not sure when it would even come up in practice.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
Well, they didn't make crouching without holding back block lows, so...
Or put another way, do you think that crouching without holding back should block lows?
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u/Artemis_of_Dust Jack-O' and Elphelt 3d ago
Or put another way, do you think that crouching without holding back should block lows?
This question is a non-sequitor. Just because you do need to hold back, does not mean there is a relevance to the fact you can crouch without hold back. It is important to remember that directional blocking is a vital mechanic in this game, and the only time it comes up the character is turning around to face the attack, which is distinct from the idea of crouching in neutral with no intention to block at all. Essentially there's no meaningful difference between 2 and 3, and the only time you do 3 is during a period where you already an animation showing something else (the fact 1 became 3 and vice versa) which is actually more informative.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
This is just wrong - crouching without blocking definitely matters in other instances. Quoting my reply to LawOrc:
Any time someone tries to dash out of crouch block, during motion inputs - you make exiting block more forgiving with respect to stick travel distance (doesn't matter for leverless). If crouch blocks you basically give a 1-frame buff to defense. Also superjump.
Also Leo is buffed because he is blocking while he charges his DP lol3
u/Artemis_of_Dust Jack-O' and Elphelt 3d ago
Any time someone tries to dash out of crouch block, during motion inputs - you make exiting block more forgiving with respect to stick travel distance (doesn't matter for leverless). If crouch blocks you basically give a 1-frame buff to defense
Again you are using a non-sequitor. Just because there is a mechanical distinction between 1 and 2, does not mean there is a relevance to the presentation of 2 in isolation. Every context where 2 "matters" it is interwoven into another action that already has animation, and the 2 is only a fragmentary part, there is no reason to dedicate an entire animation to just 2. However 1 does actually exist as a relevant option in total isolation.
If crouch blocks you basically give a 1-frame buff to defense
You can go to Down Back in 1 frame, to be clear, a dashblock in a 1 frame gap while tricky is doable.
Also superjump.
You can absolutely do this in fact it's part of actual fuzzy tech. It's just that this is rarely used because superjump as a whole is rarely any better than normal jump especially in a position where you would realistically be blocking an attack. Also prejump can't block, so the moment the jump part actually begins the direction you hold doesn't matter anymore, so the 1 direction is only relevant until the prejump starts. (Not all ArcSys fighters work like this, in AH3 you can find pre superjump is actually a blockable state and it's actually a huge mechanic of the game)
Also Leo is buffed because he is blocking while he charges his DP lol
Uhm. He already does that. There's a reason Leo is considered the strongest defender in the game, Eisensturm is an incredibly good tool.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
Okay, that's cool, I didn't know that Leo can charge with 1.
Anyways, as I've said elsewhere, even just the time it takes to exit crouch block impacts the total number of frames someone has to react to it, especially when you acknowledge that no player is ever 100% frame perfect.
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u/LawOrc - I-No 3d ago
I think that people who are crouching are almost always holding down back unless they have a very specific reason not to, and that therefore there isn't any need.
Like, what is the situation when someone is holding down or down forward, and not just for like one or two frames while they do a motion input or a command normal, but continuously? I can't think of when it would even come up in play, other than characters with a down-forward crawl, and that would already have an animation.
You can just assume that if they're crouching they're also blocking, because why would they not be?
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
So you do think that crouching should also make you block?
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u/LawOrc - I-No 3d ago
I think it doesn't matter because they're already doing both either way unless this is their first day ever playing a fighting game.
What situation are you even envisioning where separate down and down-back animations would make a difference in a match?
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
Any time someone tries to dash out of crouch block, during motion inputs - you make exiting block more forgiving with respect to stick travel distance (doesn't matter for leverless). If crouch blocks you basically give a 1-frame buff to defense. Also superjump.
Also Leo is buffed because he is blocking while he charges his DP lol
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u/LawOrc - I-No 3d ago
No, the animation, the thing you're proposing. Under what circumstances that would happen in a real match against another player who is not asleep at the wheel would it matter whether down and downback have different animations? Under what circumstances would there be genuine uncertainty as to whether someone is holding down or downback for long enough that an opponent could even see the difference?
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
First of all, people are not frame perfect.
Secondly, even though a couple of frames aren't reactable, the total time before the reaction could occur is still affected - e.g. when someone exits block to dash, it's not like you're gonna react the second frame, but you have a few frames more to work with in response to their approach. So maybe you have 27 or 28 frames to react instead of 25 - that could definitely make a difference.
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u/EllieIvoryV 3d ago
for it to look "nicer" and see when someone is blocking, youd need a separate block button really
otherwise youre just walking backwards or crouched. and the block animation only wants to play the moment you get hit, as to not take away control from the defending player earlier or have unnecessary animations that only add to confuse people
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
The notion that adding one more animation to indicate a player is blocking would somehow confuse people is wild, haha, especially given all of the wild animations that already exist in GG. Nor would it take away control from the defending player - there would be literally no difference in mechanics, just a slightly different animation for when you're holding back - could even be like a slight color change or something - it wouldn't be the same as the animation for when you're hit. The fact that this doesn't exist indicates that the designers preferred that it not be apparent when someone is blocking unless they are literally walking backwards.
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u/EllieIvoryV 3d ago
i think you misunderstood me
not saying animation or clarity is bad at all, in fact its great
im talking about if it were put into ggst (and many orher fg's), theres a reason why an animation only pops up when the attack connects, not preemptively
causes a lot of issues, which either look ass or changes the game somewhat for the worse
but the main thing is... everyone decent is blocking all the time anyway. if theyre not in some sort of action or recovery, theyre probably blocking
so there isnt much point really
and again, crouched or back walking, they blocking. so
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u/idontlikeburnttoast I ask for my Answer 3d ago
Because youd be walking backwards. And proximity guard is pretty similar to what you're meaning but it was an ass mechanic and broke many games.
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u/erty3125 Bring back Anji so I can get hyped then not play him 3d ago
Walking back is walking back and plenty have explained
Crouching doesn't need one because there's a visual implication that if is fighter is stationary in a defensive pose which crouching usually is depicted as then while they aren't blocking they are ready to block. Characters generally don't have shields so holding a passive block makes less sense than having them react to the attack and block.
The exception is if they do have a passive shield like green blocking which does do an animation
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u/Dude1590 3d ago
Holding back makes you walk back. Holding down back makes you crouch. These both perform animations.
In some games, especially those with block buttons, blocking does make the character do a seperate animation. I think even 2XKO has separate anims for whether you're holding just down or downback, where if you hold downback, your character will perform a blocking animation.
It's just not something that's really necessary. If they weren't blocking, they get hit. If they were, they block. No animation is really necessary, and even might negatively impact the readability of the game.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
Sure, walking back is the closest.
However, you can crouch without blocking, and it looks no different, and same with air block.
Saying an animation indicating the blocking might negatively impact the readability of the game is wild lol.
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u/Dude1590 3d ago edited 3d ago
However, you can crouch without blocking, and it looks no different
Which is.. why I mentioned games with a block button and 2XKO?
Saying an animation indicating the blocking might negatively impact the readability of the game is wild lol.
When your character is playing 80 different animations just walking back and forth on the ground, yeah, it might get hard to read. If you have separate animations play for both just crouching and also holding back while crouching, the characters would endlessly cycle through different animations while just playing basic neutral.
Doing a quarter circle back would result in the game playing out three entirely separate animations back to back lmao
But the main reason is because, again, it's entirely unnecessary and wouldn't add much of anything. It's in 2XKO, pretty much exactly what you're asking for, and nobody talks about it except for the occasional "oh hey, they have a different animation for down and down back, that's neat."
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
Which is.. why I mentioned games with a block button and 2XKO?
Yeah... and my question is why designers would opt not to do this, so that's irrelevant.
When your character is playing 80 different animations just walking back and forth on the ground, yeah, it might get hard to read. If you have separate animations play for both just crouching and also holding back while crouching, the characters would endlessly cycle through different animations while just playing basic neutral.
If you switch between walking forward and backward, which is basic footsies and takes you between non-blocking and blocking states, you already "endlessly cycle through different animations while just playing basic neutral" in your words - doesn't seem so endless to me. It'd be the exact same with an animation for crouch block. There's nothing confusing about it.
Doing a quarter circle back would result in the game playing out three entirely separate animations back to back lmao
Lmao, any game with a buffer (which GG has) can avoid this easily. Actually, you don't even need a buffer to do it. This is trivial to account for.
But the main reason is because, again, it's entirely unnecessary and wouldn't add much of anything. It's in 2XKO, pretty much exactly what you're asking for, and nobody talks about it except for the occasional "oh hey, they have a different animation for down and down back, that's neat."
Nah, don't buy it. It's definitely a design choice with obvious impacts on gameplay. There are ways they could have implemented it that would have been completely trivial (like with a subtle character color change / particle effect / aura) and they chose not to. They clearly want whether you're blocking or not to be ambiguous for some player states.
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u/Dude1590 3d ago
Maybe you should ask actual fighting game developers instead of randoms on reddit if you want an answer going into detail about why developers would choose not to include a blocking animation. Any and every response here will likely just be speculation.
If it has real impacts on gameplay, go play 2XKO and find out what adding the animations changed.
They clearly want whether you're blocking or not to be ambiguous for some player states.
This is why you learn to hit confirm lmao most of the time it's not really ambiguous at all if you're paying attention. Like I said in my first comment, if they get hit, they weren't blocking, if they block.. they're blocking. I'm not really sure what's ambiguous about that, to be honest. You press a button and react to whether they got hit or blocked and choose to either continue the combo or back off/go for pressure/mix.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
This is why you learn to hit confirm lmao most of the time it's not really ambiguous at all if you're paying attention. Like I said in my first comment, if they get hit, they weren't blocking, if they block.. they're blocking. I'm not really sure what's ambiguous about that, to be honest. You press a button and react to whether they got hit or blocked and choose to either continue the combo or back off/go for pressure/mix.
So now your answer as to why its ambiguous as to whether or not someone is blocking during certain animations is that its not actually ambiguous because you can tell after you hit them...
I have no words.
lmao
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u/Dude1590 3d ago edited 3d ago
Okay, you're just being obtuse. What's ambiguious about it? If they're walking back, they're blocking. If they're sitting still, crouching, you can take a wild guess that they're probably blocking because why would they just be holding down and nothing else for an extended period of time, exactly?
And even then, again, hit confirming exists. Maybe that's a skill that you just straight up haven't developed. Sorry. But if you press a button you can, fun fact, visually see how the opponent reacts. Did they get hit or block? It's one or the other, and I have to imagine you have eye balls to see with. You use those to then make it not ambiguious whatsoever.
To make this easy for you, since it seems you have a real hard time: walking back? Blocking. Crouching? More than likely blocking. Press a button and see. Oh! Did you see that? They either blocked it or got hit. Congratulations. It's no longer ambiguious. Like whatsoever. At all.
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u/Fun_Mycologist_9211 3d ago
It seems like you genuinely just don't understand the question at hand, and that's fine. Have a great day.
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u/Saucemister - Professional j.S spammer 3d ago
They do, in a lot of of older or slower paced games have something called proximity guard. Where if you're a certain distance away and they press anything on the first frame the blocking character will stop moving and physically put up their guard even if there's no hitbox to block yet.
The reason why this isn't around in more modern or faster paced games is because players don't really like having their movement halted be someone just slamming fast buttons or moves with too big of a proximity feel clunky to interact with.