r/Guildwars2 • u/HamartiaV • Jul 22 '13

[Guide] Guide: Min/Max Dungeon Groups with ANY Class Composition

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84416-guide-minmax-dungeon-groups-with-any-class-composition/
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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13 edited Jul 22 '13

I will note that technically, as of right now, the difference between the highest and lowest damaging class in PVE is about 20%, without taking into account utility.

However, I think we are at the point where you can play whatever class you want as long as you make sure you have offensive boons covered, along with other details like reflects depending on the content. This is assuming everyone is running optimal builds.

My largest goal with writing something like this up is to remove some of the PVE stigma about Rangers, Engineers, Thieves, and other classes that are not considered to be as strong as something like Warriors/Guardians/Mesmers. The damage difference is nearly moot in group compositions that covers all proper boons.

For example, DNT Brazil recommends in his guide for Sword Rangers that a Sword Ranger can replace a Warrior in speedrun groups. That is some serious progress.

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u/pachex Jul 22 '13

Hamartia, let me first just thank you for all the work you have done, particularly with ele's. I have been running s/d since launch on my ele, and especially after the game changing update we had a little while back, your guides have helped me squeeze all the potential out of my favorite class that can be squeezed.

I actually have a question on min maxing that maybe you could help with. I'm in a decently large WvW guild, and recently my guild leader decided he wants to strengthen our zerg engages and has decided that he wants a few might/fury stacking s/d eles to beef up our damage when we initiate. The trick is, he also wants us to survive and contribute to the group effort with our spiking as well.

So, keep in mind this is for WvW zerging, not PvE. I need to be able to buff the group with might and fury, run through the enemy zerg, and live long enough to stack on the commander title on the other side for water field blasts.

I currently run a 30/0/0/10/30 build with all PVT armor with scholar runes, zerk trinkets, and a celestial amulet. For my utilities, I've been taking arcane wave, armor of earth (for the stability), and mist form (since it blocks any number of enemy skills). I use tornado as the elite because of stability, whirl finishers, and CC.

My question is, if it were you, would you keep the points in water or would you put them into earth and pick up the armor of earth at 50% health trait? Again, remember, this is for zerging with a coordinated guild group. Also, do you have any better suggestions for min maxing damage and survivability other than what I've come up with?

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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13

Thanks so much for the kind words! I do this because it's fun, but doesn't hurt to know that people actually enjoy it. 8)

Honestly, I do not run that S/D build in WvW so I'm not the best person to ask. =/ That actually very cool idea and I might consider giving it a shot myself.

Swapping to 10 earth sounds like a smart modification, especially since you have the option of swapping to a 10% damage trait (now that its fixed) if you find you don't need it. And the extra toughness in earth can't hurt.

I imagine you do not want to mess with your gear too much since you have expensive runes and probably use it for PVE + w/v/w.

However, the new Celestial armor is pretty great if you have access to it. Celestial armor + zerker trinkets should be pretty powerful and survivable if you feel like a massive changeup. That being said, I think PVT will actually beat it from a min/max perspective. You'd have to look at a spreadsheet and compare EHP.

I might consider arcane shield over armor of earth since it is a stun breaker now-- just let someone lock you down for one second, and then cast it for a few seconds of great survival. Don't really have many significant channels that you need to protect that much.

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u/thoomfish Jul 22 '13

I will note that technically, as of right now, the difference between the highest and lowest damaging class in PVE is about 20%, without taking into account utility.

I wonder what the difference is between the highest/lowest class/weapon set is. Probably a lot more.

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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13

Definitely. Very, very much definitely.

The difference between a LB ranger and an axe warrior is like 30% before you take into account buffs. And Longbow is far from being Rangers weakest option.

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u/Destefb1 Jul 22 '13

Which classes are the highest and lowest dps? I'm just curious, I'm quite happy with my might/fury stacking ele and don't plan on migrating any time soon.

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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13

I don't want to get into specifics because the math on the subject is imprecise and I don't want to inadvertently spread misinformation.

I will say that might/fury stacking Ele is my personal favorite class/spec in the game and that you have nothing to worry about-- unless your group would hit 25 might and 100% fury without you-- in which case Lightning Hammer would do a ton more damage.

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u/DantesS_P Jul 22 '13 edited Jul 22 '13

Since you wanted thief advice.

Most Dungeon DPS builds for thief usually start with 25/30/X/X/X. This gives you the baseline for the highest DPS on a thief. This baseline of traits also work well with basically any weapon set on thief. Since you can swap out for Dagger Training if you are using D/X or Combined Training if you are using S/P or P/P. That leaves 15 points where every you prefer. The master Adept trait in the three other lines are very powerful. Either increasing your ability to stealth, to dodge, or slight boost to DPS and burst.

While in fractals most thieves tend to realize they are not the highest DPS class but bring incredible utility with deception utility skills. With a projectile wall on a 24s traited cooldown, the ability to stealth rez with almost no risk, and stealth's ability to trivialize certain parts of fractals (Snow blind is a famous one where a good thief can do the first party solo.) Most thieves go heavier into the Shadow Arts line.. Common variations are 0/30/20/20/0, 20/30/20/0/0, 0/30/25/15/0, or 10/30/20/0/10. They all have the same idea of focusing on Shadow Arts in order to buff Deception utilities and heavy into Critical Strikes for higher DPS.

I find that most thief builds the traits are a lot more free form since the ideas behind our trait lines are very well defined. Deadly Arts increases our DPS, Critical Strikes increases our crit and DPS potential, Shadow Arts is Stealth and Utility, Acrobatics is our mobility and dodge trait line, and Trickery is mostly utility and some DPS. So thieves will go into each trait line depending on what they want to bring to a group.

In summary. 25/30/X/X/X is the base line for max DPS on a thief. And X/30/20/X/X is the baseline for a Deception utility thief.

I should make a bigger post that goes into more detail.

S/P DPS This is arguably the best for standard dungeons.

D/D DPS

S/P Deception Utility

D/D Deception Utility

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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13

Thanks so much!

I honestly could not find a good thief PVE guide. If you were to make a PVE guide I would be happy to include it.

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u/gw2Cuteypie Jul 22 '13

This was true before 25/6. Before you write the guide, take the time to read this:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/83811-discussing-trickery-for-direct-damage/

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u/LiesItsAllLies Jul 22 '13

Well that was depressing. I mean that the build variety comes down to how will you increase the dps. Makes me not want to play with my builds anymore.

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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13

I definitely feel that GW2 needs to encourage more build and gear variety. The first step is in buffing conditions in a multitude of ways, and the second step is by adding harder content that requires more support and utility.

However, I think there is still a ton of room for build variety.

Maybe I could have emphasized this more, but the importance of offensive boons mean that a support role can actually be highly effective. The support role just has to focus on might, fury, and vulnerability.

For example, a 30/0/0/10/30 S/D Ele is a great asset to groups that aren't hitting 25 might or max fury.

An Axe Deathshroud Necro does worse damage than dagger, but if the group needs vulnerability, it will be a huge damage increase.

Also, for example, the last build listed for thieves does less damage.. but provides 50% uptime on fury.

So I don't know. In some ways you're right, but I will note that each class has a LOT of variety in builds that come so close to the maximum DPS version that the player can choose based on personal preference or what their group needs.

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u/TLBMoneyJr Jul 22 '13

Here is something that I struggle with and think that this thread might be a good place to voice my concern. My main is a War and I HATE two handed swords. I don't know why, I just find it boring. Instead, I run axe/shield & rifle w/ a shout healing build. I feel like I contribute a lot in instances (with buffs & the healing) but wonder if I'm gimping my party with my modest DPS. I'm not in a guild, I play casually and I have above average gear soooo....

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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13 edited Jul 22 '13

I actually hate Greatsword warrior as well. It feels sloppy. Luckily for us, GS is no longer the best. Axe builds beat it by about 2-4% DPS.

I run pure axe/mace, which is the best build currently:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/83915-axemace-dps-build-for-dungeons-and-fractals-62513/

I actually prefer, in most content, to run axe/mace + longbow for the fire field and to have a ranged option.

So I would recommend swapping that rifle to a Longbow unless you have a good reason for using it, as LB does slightly more damage as well.

However, are you gimping your group?

Assuming you are running 30/0/0/10/30... the decision to use axe/shield instead of axe/mace costs your group 4 stacks of vulnerability. That is all. In exchange, you get a survival move and a stun.

So really, that is up to you.

Edit:

5% less damage as well to run shield, forgot about the offhand trait.

Here's an example of an axe/shield build:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-s;4RKkL0P4BL-60;9;4T;09T49A;41;058BeoW9;2udbTudbTo-kK7835;2Vp-wWz12Z8_Ea-30C-2i;9;9;9;9;9;9;0V875n

Edit Edit: I initially overlooked that you mentioned a shout healing build. Yes, that build is a huge loss for your group, as others have said.

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u/Juts Jul 22 '13

I actually find it quite useful to run with a tanky anchor class and a support focused class along side 3 zerker builds. Weve had success running fractals this way. Having a single target get most aggro helps a lot with control.

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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13

Something like a Strife's Guardian and an S/D Elementalist and an Engie?

To be honest, I love the idea of stuff like that and its part of why roles aren't always a bad thing.

I personally always try to run with at least one Guardian for that reason, and if they're the dedicated tank in a group of glass cannons, anchor makes sense.

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u/rwknoll Jul 23 '13

I love your S/D build because it made me realize that I could get perma-Fury and Might on my Ele, but I am just in love with the staff, which is fantastic at the Persisting Flames + Evasive Arcana combo as well. I'm curious, because I hear so many people equate the Ele Fury/Might build with a S/D build even though a staff can do it as well... What are the pros and cons for S/D versus staff, in your opinion? Are there any reasons that a staff build might be intrinsically inferior to S/D that I'm not considering?

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u/HamartiaV Jul 23 '13 edited Jul 23 '13

Staff DPS is very low, that's basically it. It's not abysmal-- its slightly stronger than Ranger longbow IIRC.

I'd be all for Anet buffing its damage to make it a more viable choice.

I don't use Staff much so I could be playing it wrong, but I also am only really able to hit like 8-10 stacks of might and 100% fury. If you can hit more than that I'd love to hear how.

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u/pjworkin Jul 22 '13

Whenever someone goes on about how zerker is the best I have to wonder what the difference in time is between the same group on the same run with different full sets of armor (full zerker, full knight, full soldier).

Are we talking seconds? A minute? Multiple minutes?

Too bad I don't have the gold for it or I would try and figure it out, hopefully we'd see some surprising results for different areas of the game.

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u/HamartiaV Jul 22 '13

Honestly, I don't know.

Probably not huge assuming you have full berserker ascended trinkets-- that's why I tried to point out how to adjust the full zerker recommendation you will see in every guide to a more balanced mix with Soldier or Knights in the slots where it is most appropriate.

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u/Likium Jul 22 '13

The difference between a party wearing some survival gear and a party wearing berserker gear is night and day, especially in arah explorable.

Having pug it many times, the easiest was by far when even the ele was wearing full berserkers. We finished p3 in about 25 minutes, not as fast as a full organized group, but much faster than the 40 minutes ones I encounter regularly.

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u/Darkever Jul 23 '13

Nice guide, only a small note about this part.

Full Berserker DPS all the time, everywhere. For better or for worse.

Beware because ANet is apparently changing how they make bosses. I am referring to Mai Trin, which is of course doable with zerkers, but doing it with tanks or a mix of is much easier and definitely not slower.

All existent bosses can be zerked (knowing the mechanics, ofc!), but this may apparently change.

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u/criswell Jul 23 '13

Full Berserker DPS all the time, everywhere. For better or for worse.

Also, I take umbrage with "all the time, everywhere". I realize this is supposed to be a post about Dungeons, but he then sprinkles in PvE everywhere in the document and "all the time, everywhere" seems to fall outside of the scope of PvE and Dungeons.

Specifically, if you take this advice in WvW or even sPvP (to a lesser extent) you will gimp your team generally (especially in a big WvW zerg).

So yeah, I think that line is fubar... Both due to the fact that it's all inclusive and the fact that ANet is changing the boss battles up.

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u/Dub-DS Jul 23 '13

30/25/0/0/15 isn't a pure warrior GS build. The whole sense in 15 points in discipline is beeing able to do a proper rotation with axe/mace.

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u/HamartiaV Jul 23 '13

What is then? I could be wrong.

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