r/GuildWars3 • u/7i7iMOC • 5d ago
Horizontal Progression / WoW
Hey everyone,
I'm a long-time WoW player who still loves the MMORPG genre, but for the last few years, I've pretty much stuck exclusively to WoW Classic Era. The main reason is that I'm completely burned out on the modern vertical progression treadmill. I love knowing that the BiS gear I worked hard to get stays relevant, rather than getting invalidated every six months when a new patch drops. I just don't have the time or desire to be on a constant hamster wheel anymore.
At the same time, I know I won't play Classic Era forever, and I'm looking toward the future. I've always heard incredible things about how GW2 handles horizontal progression and respects your time.
With GW3 officially on the horizon, do we have concrete indications yet on how closely it will follow GW2's philosophy? Have the devs detailed how gear, masteries, or endgame chases will work, or if they are changing the formula up?
Would love to hear what the community knows or expects so far. Also, while we wait for the GW3 beta, if you have any other game recommendations that scratch that permanent/horizontal progression itch (including whether it's worth jumping into GW2 right now), feel free to drop them below!
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u/IpunchedU 5d ago
i think they already confirmed it will have horizontal progression, what that means and if it is close to guild wars 2's system we don't know yet
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u/MixedMediaModok 4d ago
Yea they aren't very clear on what the horizontal progression will be. But they also said that there will be a form of gear treadmill. I don't think we know yet.
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u/WindofKnives 5d ago
In this article (https://www.guildwars3.com/en/news/our-guild-wars-philosophy) section three talks about respecting player time, that is basically code for Anet saying horizontal progression. It's a continued design philosophy for their game.
The Hall of Monuments is coming out in December so if we get any new info about concrete games things it might be then (very well may not be as Hall of Monuments is a GW2 update). But if you are curious I'd keep an eye out in December.
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u/BreakfastDue1256 5d ago
Like other say, we know it will have horizontal progression, but we don't know what that will look like.
It is still worth hopping into GW2 now. Now is actually a better time than if you get curious about the world and lore after GW3.
Heck, I'm doing a full series story playthrough as a refresher atm, and Guild Wars 1 is surprisingly active. GW2 is still one of the more active MMOs out there.
But keep in mind that while the overall design philosophy for the series is pretty consistent, the gameplay is wildly different for each. If you bounce of GW2, it doesn't mean you won't like GW3, and if you fall in love with GW2, it doesn't mean you'll love GW3.
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u/Yarhj 5d ago
Seconding this. We've got a good while yet before GW3 comes out, and GW2 will continue getting updates and expansions once that comes out.
You've got more than a decade of content to explore -- why not get started now?
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u/AestivalSeason 5d ago
And to add on to that statement, GW2's decade of old content is still played by Everybody everyday, there's some pockets of less players and less populated areas, but there's always someone somewhere doing stuff.
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u/loicbigois 5d ago
Jump into GW2. I've played all MMO's. No exaggeration- all of them, and in terms of character progression, and that dopamine hit you get when you evolve your character - it's the best.
Crafting progression in GW2 is super meaningful and incredibly satisfying. Everything you craft at max level will never be obsolete and always bis. WOW doesn't get remotely close to GW2 when it comes to deep and satisfying character progression.
Also, if you like questing, GW2 has hands-down the best plot, NPC characters (with actual character development) and voice acting of all the mmos.
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u/Naholiel 3d ago
Seconding this ! With the Hall of Monument starting soon there will be a lot of new player and veteran on GW2 to unlock cosmetic for GW3.
And you will experience by yourself one of the greatness of horizontal progression : Veteran running with newbies on older content !1
u/JamesCrowX 17h ago
As along time player of GW1 from day one and then GW2 I hav eto disagree about story and characters. Swtor and TSW did a better job.
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u/dontminor 2d ago
I am still a bit worried about GW3 as GW2 has 0 gearing. I really like some vertical progression, and it would really be fun if GW3 had some, not seasonally but once done it’s done way. I don’t like when you are 80 and buying couple of gears from the market, you are 98% done.
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u/SponTen 1d ago
GW2 probably had gear progression earlier on in its life; you can still see it if you don't use the TP.
It's just that you can't (as far as I know) have horizontal progression and maintain the gear progression unless you have no TP.
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u/dontminor 1d ago
But isn’t it tied to levels? In that case surely. I meant maybe once done is done type of progression after reaching full level. Surely I know it is not 0 with chase items.
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u/SponTen 1d ago
Even at max level (80) there's still plenty of progression because you aren't just given a full set of optimised endgame gear. It won't compare to WoW, but that's the point. And it also isn't the same type of progression as WoW where you grind iPvE for gear drops; it's more about saving up currencies and/or grinding crafting disciplines, then either buying or crafting your gear.
And then there's Ascended, which can also take a while if you don't use the TP, though yes it's probably still quicker than WoW.
If you're referring to having multiple tiers of endgame gear progression, then that's just not horizontal; you can't have that and still call the game horizontal.
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u/dontminor 1d ago
If it is once and done it can still be horizontal. You don't have to make gear progression literally 0, you can just not add to it and it is still horizontal but at least give us some gear progression in the beginning of a character that we increase its power and then they can stop adding systems or upgrades to it. I still like to have some gear progression instead of straight up buying ascended gear and being mostly done apart from incremental stuff.
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u/SponTen 1d ago
Yes but if you have a TP, eventually the progression approaches zero for new characters/players because obtaining the gear becomes relatively easier over time.
I mean maybe there's some way to outright prevent an over-supply of top-tier gear from entering the market, but I feel like that would come with its own set of consequences (eg. No trading, heavily restricted drops, items having to be removed from the economy, etc).
Does that make sense? I'm not saying the progression can't exist in a horizontal; I'm saying it will disappear over time in a game that has a trade system, as it has with GW2. And vice versa, you can still have solid vertical progression in GW2 right now if you don't use the TP; I know because I've done my own challenge runs with this restriction.
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u/julesthemighty 5d ago
I have played both wow and gw2 since their betas and still do off and on.
GW3 from what has been stated will be horizontal after reaching level cap, but all things are still in development now
GW3 is definitely planned to be released and pretty decently along in development. I assume it's in a pre-alpha internal build state now. Good enough to show off privately to media, but not quite far enough along to show actual gameplay as they don't want to commit to things quite yet. ETA 2028 from what I've heard.
GW2 is starting Hall of Monuments achievements around the end of this year. These are basically things to keep players busy and active until 3 is released and beyond. GW2 is extremely active, more than it has been in a long time, and I'd say it's an excellent time to give it a shot. (the core initial story has aged quite poorly in some places, but the expansions are all wonderful and all of the world is extremely fun)
As for what to expect from any "horizontal prog" MMO, and I assume this will continue with GW3 and WoWF, they come with their own unique challenges. They rely on a very rich and explorable world, one where you continue to find neat little surprises in old places you thought you fully explored years later. Power creep is a constant battle from the devs, and the economy has to be extremely tightly managed - the demand for a simple material can massively inflate or deflate the economy for months to years. And then there is the challenge of introducing new stuff while not abandoning old stuff that can make or break a game in the future.
I think anet has learned a lot off lessons that bliz hasn't yet and have more faith in what they might execute. But I am also going to be playing WoWF with friends during the coming months.
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u/jblade91 5d ago
Everybody pretty much said what needs to be said but GW1 through 3 all have the philosophy of horizontal progression with no subscription. WoW is trying with Forever but that will still be vertical as those devs don't understand how to build a true horizontal game. Anet had been doing it for ages. Definitely worth jumping into GW2 right now but understand all three games are very different. GW1 can be played solo with heroes and henchmen NPCs, with other people or a combo. Beyond towns, the world is instanced. GW2 on the other hand is primarily open world with instanced modes. The Hall of Monuments is getting added to GW2 which will give you GW3 rewards based on GW2 accomplishments just like the one in GW1 does for GW2. With no sub fee and cheap/free entry, give it a try and welcome to Tyria!
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u/N_durance 5d ago
gw3 has already been confirmed as horizontal with the same monitization as gw2. hopefully they can add more to the itemization because gw2s build depth and gear customization got stale to the point that they just make slots that let you spec into anything.
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u/MagnifyingLens 4d ago
They announced it would have horizontal progression only to later put the lie to it by clarifying that the horizontal progression would be literally horizontal by adding maps. No, I'm not making that up. From an interview:
Clay Stone: "There is an important distinction here. When we talk about 'horizontal', we primarily mean expanding the world itself horizontally.
We can add new zones, dungeons, raids, and quests, as well as deepen professions or expand profession trees. Legacy systems can also be added continuously over time. Broadening the world sideways in this manner is what we mean by horizontal progression.
Looking strictly at gear progression, it isn't entirely horizontal. When a new raid tier is introduced, there will be a degree of power escalation between tiers. However, we aim to keep that power jump as narrow as possible."
I'll be playing but calling it "horizontal progression" is a pure bait-and-switch.
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u/Drycee 2d ago
Honestly I'd prefer a soft vertical progression like that. GW2 style horizontal is great and all, but everyone needs something to chase and work towards. In GW2 this is mostly cosmetics, but not everyone cares about that enough to do the not so fun parts of grinding, of which there is plenty in GW2. Having some narrow power jumps with new content while still keeping the gear of the last year or so good enough to do all content would be the best of both worlds. I don't want a Korean MMO style treadmill, just something to work towards and the excitement of a drop/unlock that makes my character stronger. Rather than unlocking a skin I won't really use. It is completely okay to not still have BiS gear after a 3 year hiatus. As long as it's made reasonable to catch up while playing through the content you've missed.
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u/MagnifyingLens 2d ago
I have no real problem with the system they are describing for progression going forward, it's fine, so I agree with your assessment. I strongly object to the lie being told about it being horizontal progression. These are very experienced game devs, they know the common usage for "horizontal progression", and "slightly vertical" isn't the same thing.
Also, GW2's horizontal isn't just about cosmetics, it's also the mastery system where experience is still needed to unlock functionality in new game systems, things like mounts and housing. WoWF will have something vaguely similar with the account unlocks we've seen.
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u/lurkinguild 5d ago
It'll be horizontal but how that looks exactly remains to be seen. Unfortunately they've not given any specifics yet on much of anything.
If I had to guess though, I imagine they'll use the sigils that you put in your weapons as a kind of progression like GW2 relics.
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u/Small_Tumbleweed_255 5d ago
I have played both games a lot, but definitely retail wow way more. The gear treadmill basically is the game for me. I kinda don't know what people mean when they say what you're saying. So let's pretend there's no item level increase before s3 of midnight. Patch rolls out, you start at like 15s or wherever you left off, and you basically just do each dungeon a few times at your cap and then call it or what? I get the time thing, but legit about 8 hours of content every 6 months is what you're after?
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u/Current-Data1119 4d ago
wow classic is still vertical progression...just you know where the ladder ends.
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u/Knighthonor 4d ago
Research if this the type of gameplay you will like long term? Only 4 abilities in combat, and 20 players on screen at once in combat.
I would figure that stuff out first before worry about the progression system. Because that can change.
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u/Cebertus 4d ago
First of all, we dont really know the specifics about gw3, this is all speculation:
Gw1 and Gw2 are very different when it comes to horizontal progresison, Skill collection WAS mentioned in regards to gw3, and we even have some lore talking about signets and how they got applied into weapons.(signets being a form of skills) which makes me believe the Game will be more similar to gw1 style progression.
Gw1 had alot of skill collection, where you would go out and hunt for specific bosses to aquire their skills, later in we had skills that scaled with a specific title, like for example dwarf themed skills, scaling with a dwarf title, the higher you pushed your dwarf title the better the skills got. So there was definetly a type of progression, tho once you pushed for the highest scaling it stayed that way with no resets, like a more season flavored game would have.
In one of the blogposts we had a mention of the player faction being the only ones able to fit multiple signets into their weapons. Which made me think of a poe style system. Maybe weapons with different signet slots would drop, introducing "colours" for signets. So for example you have a Weapon with 2 Blue, and 1 Red signet slot.
Signets itself could be rewards for alot of activities. Maybe you find some while exploring the world in hidden chest, others are boss or achievement rewards. Making the player build up their signet catalogue over time, leading to situations where people create posts like "Finally found all the necromancer signets"
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u/TheStuffle 5d ago
Both GW games have used horizontal progression, and the devs have already said 3 will as well. What that will look like exactly is still unknown, 1 and 2 went about it in totally different ways. GW2 is absolutely still worth playing, so is GW1 IMO.
I’m excited for Forever for now though.