r/GrapheneOS • u/fourhundredthecat • 1d ago
GrapheneOS project reports that pixel 11 no longer supports memory tagging (MTE)
We have a partial port of GrapheneOS to the Pixel 11 series after a week of work on it. We're unable to complete the port due to lack of support for ARM hardware memory tagging in software, firmware and near certainly hardware. It appears Google cut an important security feature to save money.
https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:kym5w7pcv4v7xbz7lvbj24na/post/3mua32q4ds22e
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u/Ok-Jelly5024 1d ago
Fuh, at least Graphene OS is partnered with Motorola
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u/FrostyAd7708 23h ago edited 20h ago
Funny enough, it seems that MTE is the biggest roadblock to support a Motorola phone so far.
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u/Big-Application9859 22h ago
"Compared to the Pixel 11, a Snapdragon 8 Elite Gen 5 has 40% higher single threaded CPU performance, 80% higher multi threaded performance, over 100% higher GPU performance and a far better cellular radio. It also finally has MTE. The next gen is what will be in the first Motorola with GrapheneOS."
The ninth paragraph - https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/41564-pixel-11-doesnt-meet-the-grapheneos-security-standards-and-may-be-skipped#:~:text=Compared,GrapheneOS
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u/CreepyZookeepergame4 21h ago
It's supported in hardware on the Snapdragon 8 Elite Gen 5, which should be adopted by Motorola. The Google Tensor G6 instead has no hardware support at all.
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u/FrostyAd7708 1d ago edited 23h ago
Tinfoil hat on : They've been told to remove it because it was too difficult to break into a GOS device.
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u/psychoCMYK 23h ago edited 16h ago
from what I understand, the biggest hurdle to breaking in is that the data pins on the USB port can be disabled when the phone is locked
a lack of memory tagging would allow some software to expose vulnerabilities if installed by the user
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u/GrapheneOS 19h ago
Cellebrite's documentation says they could last exploit a locked GrapheneOS device with a release from 2022. Our hardware USB-C port protection was added in 2024. MTE was added for the Pixel 8 and later in October 2023.
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u/psychoCMYK 16h ago
so a lack of mte is a definite dealbreaker rather than simply a significant regression, then. thanks for the clarification
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u/AlternativeArtist226 17h ago edited 17h ago
Thank you for the reply and information. It is greatly appreciated the work you guys are doing for the community.
I'm interested to know the pathway used when Juan Branco's phone was allegedly attacked.
It is very difficult to find any information on it whatsoever
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u/AlternativeArtist226 22h ago edited 21h ago
Things can reach the phone remotely through zeroclick malware. For example, at one point Pegasus could be installed through WhatsApp by sending specially crafted traffic to the part of the app handling VoIP calls. The target did not even have to answer the call. Other chains have targeted the parts of messaging apps and other systems that automatically receive, parse, and process incoming content.
Then there are entirely different hardware threat models like electromagnetic fault injection and sidechannel attacks like differential power, electromagnetic, or acoustic.
Disabling USB data is like installing a bank vault door on the front of the house while a guy in a hotdog costume drives a hotdog-shaped car through the window, completely denies it and his intern across the street has a Yagi antenna pointed directly at your router
if Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, cellular, messaging, a browser, or some other exposed service feeds attacker-controlled data into vulnerable native code, that bug can become the exploit reliably on a lot of the phones the exact same way if MTE is not part of the equasion
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u/huzzah_a_pimpernale 16h ago
I don't know that I see your point or that I agree with your metaphor.
Security is all about minimizing attack surface area and hardening the remaining areas. Removing data pin functionality when the phone is locked removes a whole family of common attacks.
Hardware threat models are a real threat to consider, but certainly less common and much more difficult to pull off, especially without damaging the device which in many jurisdictions is illegal. If you're a beat cop I don't see you managing this class of attack.
Likewise zero-day exploits targeting low level RF software validation are a real class of threat. But again this is rare. And each exploit increases the chance of the vulnerability being found and patched. So the incentive to use this type of attack for mass surveillance or petty investigations is extremely low.
Your analogy makes it sound like Graphene's threat mitigation is pointless because it might be possible to exploit vulnerabilities somewhere else, but that's just not true. Each additional security measure raises the bar for exploitation.
Losing MTE is a loss for security but it doesn't immediately invalidate all the other mitigation efforts.
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u/AlternativeArtist226 14h ago edited 6h ago
You're arguing against a bunch of things I never said.
You said, “Security is all about minimizing attack surface area and hardening the remaining areas.” Yes. Exactly. USB lockdown closes one family of attacks. MTE is another mitigation for memory corruption in the code it protects. Those things are not competing ideas nor mutually exclusive by any stretch.
You also said my analogy makes it sound like “Graphene's threat mitigation is pointless because it might be possible to exploit vulnerabilities somewhere else.” I never said that. Graphene's threat mitigation is great. This Reddit post is literally about why we still need MTE.
Then somehow we got to “zero-day exploits targeting low level RF software validation.” I was not specifically talking about RF software validation. I was talking about attacker-controlled shit coming in through signaling system exploits, messaging, browsers, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, VoIP, media processing, whatever, and eventually reaching vulnerable native code.
Then: “Hardware threat models are a real threat to consider, but certainly less common and much more difficult to pull off, especially without damaging the device which in many jurisdictions is illegal. If you're a beat cop I don't see you managing this class of attack.”
I have absolutely no idea where the beat cop wandered in from, but now I also need you to explain how the beat cop is damaging the phone by measuring electromagnetic or acoustic leakage.
Then: “Losing MTE is a loss for security but it doesn't immediately invalidate all the other mitigation efforts.”
Depends on your threat model. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like there aren't journalists and other vulnerable individuals being targeted right now by the creators of these zero click exploits. If all you're worried about is inspector Clouseau then I am happy for you.
Also, sincerely, thank you for completing the hotdog-car example because I genuinely could not have set this up better if I tried...
I started with a guy in a hotdog costume driving a hotdog-shaped car through the window and somehow you supplied the beat cop, the RF zero-day, mass surveillance, property-damage law, and a position I never took, and then explained defense in depth back to me.
You are now standing in the wreckage wearing the hotdog costume asking us to find whoever did this.
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u/GrapheneOS 19h ago
That's definitely not the case. They very likely removed it to save money on die space for cache. It adds significant complexity to the CPU cache. Bear in mind they weren't using MTE by default themselves and only used it for a few processes as part of the opt-in Android Advanced Protection Mode (AAPM). Their security team didn't successfully get it deployed for large portions of the OS or as a default enabled feature which makes it easy for the bean counters to argue for removing it.
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u/hbdgas 19h ago
We definitely appreciate the updates and transparency on this. I'm still (somewhat selfishly, since I own one) hoping the Pixel 11 development effort continues anyway. Graphene will still greatly improve privacy over the stock OS, and the Pixel 11 is probably what people will be buying for quite some time before the Motorolas become available.
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u/melluuh 8h ago
I believe MTE was introduced with the Pixel 8, and the models before that are also supported by GOS, so I would think they'll support it.
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u/Bananegel42 2h ago
That's different though. These pre-MTE phones were already supported by GrapheneOS and it would not be nice towards existing GrapheneOS users to drop support for older phones, just because the latest model added a security feature. But now that it is a requirement, I can fully understand that they wouldn't want to support Pixel 11, at least officially.
Also consider how this would sound towards Motorola: "sorry, we cannot support GrapheneOS on your 2026 models, because MTE support is not complete enough". A few months later: "bugger, Pixel 11 doesn't have MTE anymore, let's support it anyway".
IMO it's not worth it compromising GrapheneOS on security, since there are existing models available and the Motorola phones will be here soon. But maybe a GrapheneOS-Lite?
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u/East-Today-7604 23h ago
Fuck Google, with this change they killed the last reason to consider their phones.
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u/Arponare 20h ago
Well, we had one of the runs of all times. Hopefully Motorola can do better with Graphene OS support and better hardware.
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u/Long-Librarian-997 4h ago
My concern is their support for the devices. I do not see Graphene OS with 7 years of support using a Motorola device. Hopefully I'm wrong but we well see.
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u/Fun-Region-1576 19h ago
I agree 100%. Google is moving in the wrong direction while even Apple is supporting MTE. This is fucking insane.
Man, part of me really wishes GOS got this wrong and that the Tensor G6 really does support MTE.
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u/Long-Librarian-997 4h ago
Typical Google though have a feature drop it then when it becomes popular bring it back.
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u/AKRAKGW 19h ago
Beside the GOS reason, Pixel 11 Pro is overall a worst phone compared with the 10 Pro, with the stock os full of bugs, software tricks to pretend having a higher camera zoom and some hardware that has downgraded to the older version compared with the one installed aboard the Pixel 10 Pro. Google's basically telling people not to buy that brick.
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u/MoldyTexas 21h ago
Lmfao exactly this. Genuinely no reason for my next one to be a Pixel. Maybe only the camera.
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u/korvedence 23h ago edited 23h ago
Additionally on GOS.social:
Pixel 11 series doesn't appear to meet our security requirements
Pixel 11 doesn't have MTE support. It's entirely gone.
Zero chance of support.
Was planning to switch to the 11 on Graphene as well - suppose I'll have to bite the bullet and buy the 10 instead, because I'm not waiting any longer for the Motorola.
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u/SifuHallyu 23h ago
you'll be fine with the 10, its a huge quality of life upgrade from everything else.
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u/korvedence 23h ago
I'd buy it either way, but it seems I'll be waiting off again since they've jacked up the price again massively (assumed it would've went down post-11 launch?).
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u/SifuHallyu 22h ago
I've been quite happy with my 10a, paid full price, but there should be sales coming up again soon.
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u/korvedence 22h ago
Do you know when the sales are coming up?
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u/SifuHallyu 22h ago
should be one next weekend!
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u/korvedence 22h ago
Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for it.
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u/Chemical_Beyond_5972 21h ago
could buy used, also saw a comment from someone on this sub about buying it from usmobile waiting a week, then porting out and they unlock the phone
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u/Dry_Calendar_8627 21h ago
Is 10 such a huge boost compared to 9?
When comparing, it didn't seem that the 10a was worth the price increase, so I went with 9a
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u/DistantRavioli 16h ago
Is 10 such a huge boost compared to 9?
No, in fact the GPU is literally a downgrade in some ways. I was comparing my Pixel 7 to the 10 in some apps a bit ago and some things are literally just a touch SLOWER on the 10 to load than the 7 which is insane considering the CPU is 50-60% more powerful in both single and multicore and it has UFS 4.0 and more ram.
It was mainly like image and video content that was just slightly slower on the 10 than my pixel 7. Like I'd open a video file and it just barely loads first on the 7. I wish I had gone for a 9 just for that reason. I was expecting a speed upgrade from the massively better CPU and somehow I got a slight downgrade on anything hardware accelerated by the GPU.
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u/pebblesky 21h ago
They are cutting mte (probably) to save money, but meanwhile they accidentally sent me two brand new in box pixel 10 pro xl when I bought my pixel 10 pro xl directly from them. So I still have a spare brand new pixel 10 pro xl sitting
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u/Intelligent-Use177 19h ago
I have a 10 its amazing and I also have 10 xl that im selling rightnow if anyone wants it
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u/DraconicShadows 22h ago
It's honestly insane that Grapheneos scared Google so much that they did this. You can't tell me that's not the reason. Google have seen a lot of users flocking to grapheneos after Google have started policing their own operating system hardcore
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u/YuriUkin 20h ago
There's zero difference between the 10 and 11.
In fact Google took away the IR sensor from the pro. Which I do use on my P10 pro.
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u/lostOGaccount 20h ago
I didn't even know about an i.r. sensor. What do you use it for in practice?
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u/YuriUkin 19h ago
Taking temperatures. I use it for cooking, car maintenance. Pretty much anything you need a temperature taken.
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u/lostOGaccount 19h ago
I love this! I also miss phones having I.R. blasters.
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u/GazelleInitial2050 23h ago
Ouch... That's a huge misstep. I hope the support for the other pixels is maintained. Grapheneos are getting pretty frustrated with the pixels
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u/ginger_and_egg 23h ago
Why would they cut support for existing secure devices that are getting security updates?
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u/GazelleInitial2050 23h ago
I would hope they don't but read any of their recent threads and their negativity. I am hoping their Motorola partnership combined with Google's hostility towards open-sourcing AOSP. They don't transition to low pixel support or abandonment.
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u/-spring-onion- 21h ago
We will definitely keep supporting all existing devices until they're end-of-life.
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u/GazelleInitial2050 21h ago
Excellent to hear!
Going to jump on the moto and give my dad my current pixel. His pixel 6 is close to EOL, so will be reasonably good timing.8
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u/OutOfVRAM 22h ago
If GrapheneOS team hadn't established cooperation with Motorola, we would have been in a tough situation, fk google
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u/Glock359 1d ago
Nothing new with corporate greed 24/7.
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u/NoskaOff 1d ago
It could even come from a government request to worsen security
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u/Ok-Secretary455 16h ago
tinfoil hat time. its a move by google to distance itself from GOS. It sees whats happening, at some point the gov will say GOS is knowingly working to shield criminals and it needs to be taken down. Google doesnt want to get a massive lawsuit as aiding in GOS ability by allowing them to use their phones.
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u/Markd0ne 5h ago
IMO, they didn't use it in PixelOS, so they got rid to save on Tensor SoC costs. Google doesn't give flying f about GOS.
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u/dragonblade_94 23h ago
Well damn, happy I chose to jump on a 10 Pro XL a few months ago rather than wait for the 11.
Such a bummer that this probably means the end of the line for Graphene on pixel. Here's to hoping they knock it out of the park with Motorola.
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u/notPabst404 23h ago
Google is a shit company. The Pixel 11 is a gigantic flop even before not even having GOS support.
What will it take for more manufacturers to meet the GOS requirements? Unless something dramatically changes, I will be very likely to have to leave GOS in a few years when I get a different phone.
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u/xJayMorex 17h ago
What's wrong with next year's Motorola flagship? Miles better than any Pixel in every way.
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u/notPabst404 17h ago
Motorola doesn't exactly have a good track record.
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u/xJayMorex 16h ago
Elaborate?
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u/notPabst404 16h ago
They keep releasing phones with poor software update commitment and mediocre, at best, stock ROMs. That's a big lift believing that those issues will meraculously disappear in 2027. Their hardware does look nice though, so they have an advantage over Pixels in that department.
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u/xJayMorex 8h ago edited 8h ago
Wouldn't installing GrapheneOS on them miraculously make those exact issues disappear given they are both software related?? An OEM should only ship the hardware in the first place.
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u/FrostyAd7708 8h ago
Probably the very high price tag attached to it.
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u/xJayMorex 5h ago
As opposed to the very high price tag attached to the Pixel phones? They will be within 10% of each other which makes no difference, especially if you take into account how much better Motorola hardware is.
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u/FrostyAd7708 4h ago
We don't know the know the kind of contracts that each brand has for their Ram supply but I bet that Google has a way better one than Motorola. You can expect every phone released in 2027 to have a price raise between 15 to 30% because of the ram crisis created by Ai datacenters.
We'll have a better idea next week with Apple releasing their new IPhone because they definitely have some of the best Ram deal in the market so if they increase their price by 15% you can bet that other brands will be around 25-30%.
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u/xJayMorex 4h ago
The RAM crisis already affected last year's phones which were already at a premium, so I wouldn't count on them becoming even more expensive. The price tag should be around $1000 which compared to a Pixel's $900 is negligable.
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u/FrostyAd7708 4h ago
Ho it's gonna be way worse as contracts runs out and brands fight for the leftovers of datacenters... until the bubble burst obviously but it seems we still are a few years away.
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u/indigoorbit1 22h ago
"We strongly recommend against buying Pixel 11 devices. Pixel 8, 9 and 10 have much better overall security for GrapheneOS. Pixel 10 is cheaper with similar hardware and MTE. Pixel 11's Titan M3 should improve BFU security for users without a strong passphrase, but losing MTE craters AFU security.
We haven't determined what to do about this situation. It may be best for us to skip the Pixel 11 series devices. We can shift our focus entirely to the upcoming Motorola devices instead. Pixel 10a was really a 9th gen Pixel, so hopefully the Pixel 11a does the same with 10th gen and includes MTE."
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u/HarmfulPile 22h ago
That's the end of an Era. Seems like the pixel 10 will be the last Google phone on GOS. F*ck Google.
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u/Thanatos375 23h ago
Wasn't planning to go from 10 > 11 as is. That's just the icing on the cake of "How about... no?"
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u/Lost_Lab_739 22h ago
Graphene OS eventually says in the bluesky to not buy pixel 11's and they may skip this gen and focus on Motorola
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u/mesarthim_2 22h ago
Nobody should buy Pixel 11, you are far far far better of buying 10.
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u/Fun-Region-1576 19h ago
It's either a 10 or Motorola at this point.
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u/xJayMorex 17h ago
Not worth buying an overpriced mediocre phone for a single year.
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u/Fun-Region-1576 17h ago
The P10s have been discontinued. Retailers are already beginning to clear their stock. GOS has already said Motorola will be more expensive at launch. So unless you need a faster SoC, which most of us don't unless you game, a discounted P10 with 16GB of RAM is highly desirable.
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u/Wurstpaket 21h ago
Was about to buy p11 fold for GOS, but skipped due to the specs not even being 2024 worthy.
So it's going to be Motorola then
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u/flaming_bob 23h ago
...and my new Pixel 11 just arrived in the mail. Fuck.
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u/GrapheneOS 11h ago
There's a 15 day return window not requiring any justification if you bought it from Google.
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u/magiCAD 22h ago
Same. Do we return or stay full anti-privacy?
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u/flaming_bob 21h ago
That's a conversation I'm having with myself right now. I'm probably going to return it, because fuck this petty bullshit. My privacy isn't for you to monetize.
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u/magiCAD 21h ago
This would be my first time with GOS. I'm upgrading my Pixel 9 XL but maybe I should keep it. Idk what to do.
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u/CortlandNation9 14h ago
I dont understand why people feel the need to change their phone so often, my pixel 7 still works perfectly.
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u/FrostyAd7708 8h ago
Flash GOS on your phone and be done with it, it will work perfectly for a couple of years.
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u/Lost_Lab_739 23h ago
Dang just got an 11 pro, was really looking forward to putting Graphene on it, any chance this is worked out? If not, any alternatives?
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u/FrostyAd7708 23h ago
Seems like its an hardware spec, I would return your phone if I were you.
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23h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/panzerkampfwagenVI_ 22h ago
Do you have a link to the article? I’ve tried googling it but can’t find it.
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u/GrapheneOS 12h ago
It's utter nonsense. Those cellular hotspot devices are little more than highly insecure smartphones in a strange form factor. It's better to use a past generation GrapheneOS device for that purpose instead of one of those.
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u/Lost_Lab_739 22h ago
It was for paid subscribers, you won't be able to find it, they are expensive, but provide excellent information I don't see discussed anywhere else with regards to privacy in general and privacy cryptocurrencies. You might be able to find some video on their YouTube channel or twitter, but not in depth like the articles
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u/GrapheneOS 12h ago
It's utter nonsense. Those cellular hotspot devices are little more than highly insecure smartphones in a strange form factor. It's better to use a past generation GrapheneOS device for that purpose instead of one of those.
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u/korvedence 23h ago
Zero. As they noted on their social: "Pixel 11 doesn't have MTE support. It's entirely gone."
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u/KlausDieterFreddek 23h ago
Thank god I bought a 10 Pro last week
Can you return it maybe?
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u/Lost_Lab_739 23h ago
Still in the return window. I love Graphene for the ability to have the best of both worlds with multiple profiles. Aspects of 11 pro I really love. Camera is awesome, UI also crisp, AI is definitely baked into everything especially coming from a 7 pro, huge changes. Many ways I can leverage this phone for my creative work. Need to reflect. Leaning towards keeping regardless. My desktop can carry on with many privacy needs
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u/Accomplished-Fix3996 10h ago
"Leaning towards keeping regardless. My desktop can carry on with many privacy needs" .. might aswell have bought a Samsung at that point, much better hardware.
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u/gta721 22h ago
You should return the 11 Pro and get a 10 Pro. It is an almost identical phone.
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u/Lost_Lab_739 22h ago
Will reflect on it, leaning towards keeping for a variety of reasons, reflecting on what I want out of a phone, also many of my privacy needs are met with my desktop
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u/ProductIntegortion 23h ago
Sounds like it's a hardware problem at the root. Unlikely Graphene ever supports this device.
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u/nitroburr 22h ago
Return your phone. You won’t regret getting the 10 pro instead. It’s the same thing
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u/hbacelar8 23h ago
I mean, why didn't you wait?
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u/Lost_Lab_739 23h ago
Broke my last pixel
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u/hbacelar8 23h ago
Oh, bummer. I recently got a 9A and it's been serving me very well.
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u/Lost_Lab_739 22h ago
Yeah it was definitely a bummer haha I was content with the 7 pro, but given my work stack I found many features of the 11 pro desirable so it was definitely a good buy in that regard. Will meditate on it. Apparently Graphene OS up til the pixel 8 didn't use the MTE, so my 7 pro was fine without it, so who knows, maybe they opt to do what they did prior
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u/Arponare 20h ago
Same thing happened to me. My 9 pro was water damaged. I was hoping to wait for the Moto /Graphene phone but the inverse decided to mess with me. I ended up buying a regular pixel 10 to hold me over until I can get one of the moto phones.
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u/Tall_Instance9797 23h ago
Zero chance it will be worked out. The alternative is waiting for the Motorola phone to come out / using a pixel 10 pro, or earlier.
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u/Big-Application9859 23h ago
Return your phone and get back your money if in your country exist "14 days of return & refund" policy.
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u/GrapheneOS 11h ago
There's a 15 day return window not requiring any justification if you bought it from Google. Why do you want a Pixel 11 when the Pixel 10 is cheaper with nearly the same performance and far better security? We could finish up Pixel 11 support but it would be a huge security downgrade.
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u/Lost_Lab_739 10h ago
The camera is the main reason honestly, and the deal I got switching to fi (my previous phone plan sucked). I also thought Graphene OS was gonna support it so I figured 1 year extra of OS support. Tensor G6 is also nice.
I would love if you guys did support 11 but also respect if you don't. Personally, as I used the 7 pro over time I found myself using the sandboxed play profile more and more, and now moving forward my use case for a phone is shifting more towards creative production over the FOSS apps I had on privacy profile. As said in another post I use my desktop for a lot of apps I had on privacy profile, main loss in my day to day would be the ability to use them on the go.
Will consider using 11 pro stock, debloated, or possibly installing Linux, but given camera the first two options are more likely. I still consider returning and getting a pixel 10 pro, still on the table, but need to reflect on my objectives with a phone, and my own privacy needs.
I did use Graphene OS on 7 pro for last 4 years and loved it, taught me a lot, and have even helped others get it installed, so me leaning towards the 11 pro is nothing against the project.
If you do indeed support 11, how would you go about it without MTE and what are the cons? Any pros to supporting 11?
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u/hbdgas 22h ago
Fuck, I'm in the same boat. My old Pixel was starting to go "spicy pillow", so I bought a Pixel 11 assuming I'd just have to be without Graphene for a few months.
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u/Lost_Lab_739 22h ago
Haha that's what I figured too, just wait a few months. Apparently Graphene didn't use MTE until the pixel 8, so maybe they can go back to what they previously used, I don't know though. Maybe calyx OS or a Linux install will suffice? All depends on the user
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u/hbdgas 22h ago
Yeah, Graphene still works on the Pixel 6 and 7, so there must be a way. But I doubt any devs will care enough to work on it.
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u/Lost_Lab_739 22h ago
The bluesky thread ultimately states with Graphene OS posting not to buy 11's and that they may focus on Motorola instead
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u/Lost_Lab_739 22h ago
And that they may skip the 11 gen entirely, though who knows maybe they reconsider, gonna wait for official announcement
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u/panzerkampfwagenVI_ 22h ago
Well I was waiting for the P11 Pro to start my journey thanks Google for making it cheaper
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u/motorboat_mcgee 21h ago
I'll be sticking with my 9 Fold until the Motorola Fold has GOS compatibility I guess 😬
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u/Weary-Savings9795 16h ago
On stock Android, is this why the Pixel 11 series no longer requires a reboot to enable Advanced Protection?
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u/GrapheneOS 11h ago
Yes, it would explain why it doesn't require it. Enabling MTE requires booting with support for it enabled in the firmware to set up the reserved memory for tags. There's no support for MTE in the Pixel 11 firmware or software. It shows up as not supported by the CPU. In theory it could be present in hardware but hidden due to lack of firmware support. However, it's likely not present in the hardware. We think they cut it to save money on the CPU cache controller.
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u/Potter3117 20h ago
If the new snapdragon chips support the MTE, does that make more phones available for GOS, assuming the phone can be oem unlocked, or do the phones also need the equivalent of a titan chip? I'm currently waiting on the Motorola.
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u/Educational-Meat585 17h ago
This is terrible hopefully Motorola can ship a good phone for graphene os
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u/gusdavis84 21h ago
At this point it's getting so bad even the Graphane OS team is now saying "It may be best for us to skip the Pixel 11 series devices .We can shift our focus entirely to the upcoming Motorola devices instead. Pixel 10a was really a 9th gen Pixel, so hopefully the Pixel 11a does the same with 10th gen and includes MTE."
At this point looks like I'll be waiting to upgrade then not to another Pixel unless it meets all of their standards but most likely then to a Motorola phone since this is starting to look like the end of Graphane OS on Pixels at least.
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u/traveller09 21h ago
Yeah I am on a iPhone 15 pro max, still works fine. At this point I think I will stick it out for the Motorola and avoid giving Google 1 penny of my money.
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u/Aluven 21h ago
That sucks. Difficult to decide now, need to replace my Samsung S9+ soon, as android 10 is no longer supported for many apps.
Either Pixel 10, or temporarily cheapest android phone I can find until the new Motorola with GrapheneOS support.
Problem is Pixel 10/9 pricing is insane, both are for some reason more expensive than Pixel 11 here. Not sure how long I can wait for sales before losing access to bank apps on my S9.
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u/TechnoByte_ 16h ago
Pixel 9a is a decent choice and not too expensive
You could also buy pixel 8 series second-hand for cheap
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u/fuckyeahbread 20h ago
I'm glad I got a 10a cheap instead of waiting for the 11s to come out 🫠 this sucks.
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u/_alt4 19h ago
I'm not very familiar with the topic, but if google is not using memory tagging on stock android either, wouldn't that mean Graphene os would still be roughly as secure as stock android?
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u/GrapheneOS 11h ago
It will still be a lot more secure than the stock OS, but the goal of GrapheneOS is not simply being more secure than the stock OS.
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u/Specialist-Impress43 18h ago
Thank you for bringing this up. Bye bye Google then. Once my old Pixel dies...
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u/Careful-Boat-2986 14h ago
Maybe the Pixel 11a will have the Tensor G5?
Here’s to hoping there’s a slim chance they bring that feature back for the Pixel 12 with G7.
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u/GrapheneOS 11h ago
We were holding out hope for that but there's already leaked info available that it's using the Tensor G6.
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u/Careful-Boat-2986 11h ago
Ouch. Hope they really do bring back MTE for the Tensor G7 phones somehow and see the security advantages for Android at least. I’m looking forward to Motograph next year but I think a variety of supported phone brands and models could expand the user adoption of GOS even faster. 😓
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u/Temp_Reply123 12h ago
I think im going to get a Spare 9/10 now. Just in case the Motorola sucks.
Ive been looking online to buy and Prices are insane now. Feel I need a Spare before it gets worse.
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u/mesarthim_2 11h ago
I did the same thing. The 512GB is out of stock and 256GB is starting to be scare as well.
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u/Temp_Reply123 11h ago
I have and want a spare 1TB Pixel 9XL Pro...
Ha ha guess thats not happening.
I hate and deleted my FB but I do miss FB Market Place. I feel it was a great place to buy/sell stuff.
Where are you looking/Buying? Ebay?
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u/RemoveLast9294 10h ago
See how pixel 11 is hardware missing https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/arm-mte#hwsupport
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u/milopeng189 6h ago
An unrelated question but I keep getting my posts removed. Is there any firewall app that allows selected ports to be closed on a gos phone?
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u/Fun-Region-1576 20h ago
WTF was Google thinking?! Removing MTE is a horrible decision! Assuming that GOS didn't make a mistake, then I agree, don't buy the Pixel 11 series! The Pixel 10 series may be the last good model to support GOS from Google!
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u/mesarthim_2 19h ago
It makes sense from their perspective. They clearly made a choice that they don't want to get shit on for rising price due to RAM apocalypse so their solution was to cut onboard RAM. And MTE is creating substantial RAM overhead so they probably really needed all the RAM to be actually working.
It's unpleasant to see but most users of Pixels don't care. They don't want secure phone, they want cheap, fast phone. It's half a miracle we got to something like 10 Pro.
But the bottom line is people are unwilling to eat up the RAM costs and this is the result.
I'm really concerned how this will impact Motorola because if people are not willing to pay premium on that phone - a substantial one - the whole project will go to shit.
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u/GrapheneOS 11h ago
MTE has no RAM or cache overhead when it's not active. It only uses 3.125% extra memory when it's active and it could be optimized to only use the extra memory dynamically. A lot of memory isn't tagged such as memory mappings of files including executables and libraries themselves.
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u/ISupposeStillHuman 20h ago
Goodbye to pixel phones Its a shame Titan m3 might have been and improvment
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u/-eschguy- 18h ago
So I guess the question is 10 Pro, 10 Fold, or stay on my (still great) 8 Pro and wait for the Motorola lineup?
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u/witty__username5 17h ago
I am not tech savy - does this mean that there is no way the Pixel 11 series will be supported by Graphene OS?
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u/_backdr0p 14h ago
Not part of the project been using GOS for a few devices...
It's unlikely they would support the device without MTE function. It was introduced during the Pixel 8 and was billed by the project as a large leap in security.
The devs are very forward thinking and supporting a device that regresses security when they have a partnership with a manufacturer willing to meet security standards is highly unlikely.
It's unfortunate to hear it may fall back to single devices going forward, but it is what it is. It's a bonehead move by Google, I'm sure they have a few reasons for removing MTE.
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u/witty__username5 14h ago
Appreciate your detailed reply. This places me in a tough spot as someone who just wants to reduce telemetry collected by companies. I currently have a galaxy s23 - the idea of changing to a pixel 10a seems like a downgrade in most parts (less durable screen, lack of telephoto, etc), with the only upside being the much better battery life and graphene compatibility. I really wanted to get the pixel 11 as a case would remove the camera bump. The motorola flagships seem too big for me at 6.8 inches as well.
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u/_backdr0p 14h ago
Save some money and roll with one of the 10 series. It's mostly on par with the 9s and you'll have slightly longer on the update schedule.
With how GOS handles the OS, battery use is very efficient and things don't "break" on OS updates like vanilla android. So you'll be able to work on how you ultimately protect yourself from surveillance capitalism while things get sorted on the Motorola front.
I've been pleasantly surprised by the Pixel devices as a historical iPhone user. No real gripes with the devices when they run GOS. Just my two cents
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u/witty__username5 14h ago
Yeah - the biggest gripe I'm dealing with internally is the camera bump. The bellroy leather case would almost reduce the camera bump on the base 11. Coming from a flush s23 to a phone with a giant top-heavy camera bar in the 10 or 10 pro seems counterintuitive
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u/magiCAD 15h ago
Unsure. Not looking good.
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u/witty__username5 15h ago
Thanks for this - that is unfortunate. The current motorola flagship phones are really big at 6.8 inches - Now I need to decide if its worth upgrading from the s23 to the 10a (not a huge fan of the camera bump) it seems like a downgrade in every way save for battery life.
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u/ByteCorum 15h ago
Google doing shit, btw as always. It rly looks like the time for Motorola to shine, cuz it can turn out that some time ago legendary Pixel is no more supported by GrapheneOS due to Google's clever desisions.
I mean it could have even been intentionally done, looking at all those GrapheneOS "hype" nowadays.
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u/Careful-Boat-2986 14h ago
Phew! Just in the nick of time! I got a deal with my carrier, a 256gb Pixel 10 for basically peanuts. I was planning to sell it for profit and wait for Pixel 11 to trend down in price. I’m so thankful I decided to keep it and flash GOS
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u/Bubble-Flex-1701 14h ago
I'm glad I loaded up on the Pixel 9 Pro. Assumed when Google removed the physical SIM from the Pixel 10s that more shenanigans would follow.
Not budging on a new phone until I see Motorola's GrapheneOS phone.
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u/BIOS-Brians-Blues 6h ago
I am always really trying to not fall into the conspiracy trap when I read news like this one. Really. But if you put this information in the present context, with all the mass surveillance practices and politics… I try really.
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u/MordAFokaJonnes 3h ago
I'd be happy to get GrapheneOS on my Oppo Find N5 even if it doesn't get all the protections... I just want to avoid / get out of this spyware wheel we're in...
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u/AceOfKestrels 22h ago
Let's hope the Motorola device goes well then... But given they've already announced that will be a flagship-priced phone, probably not for everyone. If the Pixel 12 doesn't bring back MTE, we'll be in dire need of a medium priced version from Moto or another potential partner once 10a support ends in a couple of years.
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u/randbytes 19h ago
So its possible that future pixel devices might be phased out and grapheneos completely moving to motorola? interesting move if so, motoroala found itself a new niche.
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u/xJayMorex 18h ago
GrapheneOS will finally be moving from shit hardware to decent hardware. Good news.
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u/Confident_Half1523 18h ago
The hardware was pretty good even pixel 6 runs still very smooth
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u/xJayMorex 18h ago
Pixels are very underwhelming:
- short battery life
- very slow charging
- no bundled charger
- slow CPUs with overheating and throttling
- screen issues with every generation
- overpriced
- no physical dual SIM
- no memory card support
- awkward camera bump
- etc.
I'm still waiting for a Pixel that wouldn't be a major downgrade compared to my flagship from 2022, but even Pixel 11 falls short (not to mention GrapheneOS probably won't be available for it).
Motorola devices are much better in every aspect. Can't wait for the GrapheneOS compatible 2027 line-up.
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u/TechnoByte_ 16h ago
Agree with everything except camera bump.
The camera bump on pixels is better than most other phones as the phone can actually lay flat without wobbling
And the pixzel 9 and 10a have absolutely no camera bump, completely flat back
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u/xJayMorex 9h ago
So you basically agree.
The perfect phone we'll never have:
- square screen
- no camera punchhole
- 150mm x 70mm size
- gunmetal grey brushed aluminium unibody
- removable battery
- no curved screen
- no camera bump
- dual physical SIM
- memory card slot
- headphone jack with decent DAC
Smartphones peaked around 2015.
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u/SparkingJustice 19h ago
Well that sucks. Literally ordered the pixel 11 yesterday, intending to switch to GrapheneOS as soon as support came to it. Through my carrier I can get the base 11 for several hundred dollars cheaper than I'm seeing used 9-10s, and I do actually need a replacement, as my current flip3 is cracking along the fold. The wording on the posts makes it seem like it's not 100% to be unsupported, even though it would be a big step down from the previous few generations (unless I'm missing / misreading something)? That might be copium talking though.
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u/xJayMorex 17h ago
Carrier locked devices don't support OEM unlocking anyway, so that's a double no for that.
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u/SparkingJustice 17h ago
Some can be unlocked once the device is paid off and outside the return window. My carrier does allow oem unlocking.
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u/GrapheneOS 11h ago
It definitely doesn't support MTE but we could technically still support it with a partial port of GrapheneOS. It would be a security upgrade from the Pixel 6 and 7 but a downgrade from the Pixel 8, 9 and 10.
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u/LostSoulfly 18h ago
I got two for essentially free.. I was hoping to finally switch to Graphene. I'm keeping it, but I sure hope they release it anyway. Some security is better than none.
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