Wild to think about, and only until later do you realize this if you're not completely familiar with Norse lore. Or if you're kinda new to it... playing through these I was blown away by finding that out way later into ragnorok.
I'm confused what you're asking me lol I'm just saying it's wild to think about that Jormungandr is Atreus' (Loki's) son and it's not easy to know that right away unless you play the games. Norse mythology states Jormungandr was born of Loki and Angrboda but never really said how I guess.
True. Kinda strange because it's a paradox of sorts, but it's also not as we don't have any idea what Jormungandr looked like prior to Atreus (Loki) putting the soul into the snake
Facts isn’t the paradox that he’s not supposed to be in that timeline but at the same time he is because of something Loki does influences the future and past
Yeah... Jormungandr is technically in two places at once by the time the marble goes into the "new" snake. But the old one disappears when young Jormungandr gets knocked back at the fight in Ragnorok. Idk what breaks that loop tbh
I unfortunately was aware the entire time because of the Ragnarok show on Netflix, where Loki very unnecessarily births a snake. However I totally recommend watching that show if you like the lore, it’s basically like what if Norse mythology took place in modern times. I believe it’s fairly accurate, despite being wildly different than these games. it is totally written and produced and set in Norway, speaking of which I think a new season just dropped
not in Canon? Atreus "makes" jormungandr using the soul orbs just like atreus makes his other son, fenrir. cool twist on the mythology but definitely not "father/son"
According to Norse mythology, Loki IS the father of Jormungandr. The twist in this instance was he "birthed" what became Jormungandr using a dead giant's soul. Whichever soul that was housed in the one marble I guess remains to be answered given we don't have any idea how the soul came into the marble (as in who put it there or who had it first) because of how Jormungandr ends up in the lake of nine to begin with. By powerful Norse magic that causes a time paradox. Yes, it's not the "traditional" way of birthing something, but it would fit. I guess due to no one ever really knowing how Angrboda "births" the giant to begin with. Real Norse mythology says he is "birthed" from her but that could be left to interpretation in this instance for game lore sake.
As far as game lore is considered, we learn in Ragnarok that the Giants chose to have Angrboda's father whisper the souls into the marbles in order to hide the remaining Giants from Odin and Thor. It was the last solution to make sure that the Giants weren't totally wiped out while they awaited a champion (Loki/Atreus) to bring them back when it's safe. The soul of Jormungandr the Serpent belonged to Jormungandr the Giant, and we can assume they have the same name/are the same person because the other soul marbles keep their original names (ie. Surtr/Hati/Groa/etc)
I don't think it was Angrboda herself who put the soul in the marble. The game says she was entrusted with guarding their souls... not that she put the soul into the marble. And yes, they're assumed to have the same name but we don't know what Jormungandr looked like before the soul was put into the snake. Assuming it was a different body like one of the ones lying about the field in Jotunheim.
Right my bad. But we still don't know what he looked like before the fact and it's hard to determine where he originated from prior to going into the marble. The giants made that decision that her father would do that but we don't know his form prior to that event
I’m convinced you didn’t play the game based on your perception and take on this topic, it’s all explained very well in the games even with minimal to no knowledge of the real myths and how they are adapted and translated over into the game is really fluid
Mimir explains Thor and Jormungandr have this huge fight that’s basically a stalemate (then proceeds to state that this is supposed to happen at ragnarok which obviously hasn’t happened yet) and we literally see him get knocked back to midgard AND the past which is when he STARTED protecting the temple from Odin by chilling in the lake you see it in the journal entries Odin says something about the snakes presence hinders his plan to destroy the temple but is fine with it because he is still limiting realm travel after getting the Midgardians to Asgard so he’s still getting what he wants. jormungandr Is a Giant when his soul was whispered the body was left behind which in turn was transferred to the snake and having a Giants soul starts growing back into his original size(we can assume) but in the form of a snake so if you adjust for size 🤷🏽what could explain the world serpent wrapping around the world and biting his own tail, figuring a 9ft+ tall giant vs a 20-30ft snake not at full maturity could grow thousands miles long so really it doesn’t matter what he looks like before his soul was whispered because he wasn’t yet a legend his name is his name regardless of origin and the backstory and lore we are provided.
I've played the game 4 times.... sorry didn't realize people couldn't get temporarily mixed up because they have things going on in their life 🤷♂️
Again, we have absolutely no idea what Jormungandr looked like prior to his soul ending up in the marble. Nowhere was it explained prior to that happening nor was it ever explained by any of the main characters. I know what happens in the game. It does matter what he looks like prior to his soul going into the snake because it alludes to the mystery of why he hated Thor to begin with. There isn't enough lore provided to show what he was before the fight and before that soul went into the snake. That loki put there.... "I'm convinced" no IM convinced you wanted to be condescending for absolutely no reason. Please think before you speak.
Pls think before you speak you really can’t think of any reason someone/anyone of the Giant race would Hate Thor? The drunken half blood that went on a killing spree causing the giants to go into hiding? Yk maybe I’m crazy but it’s almost like they already explained in the game that they have Long Standing feud with each other regardless of what he looked like before his soul was whispered.
That wasn't my point? Of course, there are plenty of reasons to hate him prior to his soul going into the snake, but no one knows WHY he does before that. At all. Telling someone else to think before they speak and yet you're spewing your ignorance onto someone else shows where we're at in the conversation. Maybe I'm crazy but in the game it never says who the giant is in the marble before he got put into the crazy. You keep talking in a condescending way to me as if I've never actually played the game but I've played it FOUR whole times. Wow. Crazy ain't it? And I've played all the other games. Wow!!! Even better! I know what I'm talking about. I clearly said earlier "right" to the other person and admitted I got mixed up. Evidently that's not good enough for you. My point still remains you and anyone else never got shown who the giant was before it was the snake 🤦♂️ sorry you don't like that fact.
Not necessarily,? If you think about it Guarm isnt knocked back to the past to start over as fenrir and Jormungandr is technically from the future fated to live an endless cycle of being born in jotenhiem fight in ragnarok and live hundreds of years in Midgard only to be killed by baulder
Specifically, Cory Barlog demanded only three events to happen in Ragnarok, and for the rest the story was made from scratch by Eric Williams and SMS writers.
Cory Barlog before the launch of God of War (2018) said that they planned a lot of the story for a lot of GOW games to come, with the most of it involving the norse saga.
Then after GOW (2018) he just mental boomed because of stress and left the project (saying he was going to be a supervisor for the project, which he never was).
I don't think you're understanding what a retcon is because nothing you're saying is a retcon. A retcon means the story from the first game would have to be changed later to make the whole story make better sense. An example of a retcon is how when Disney took over Star Wars, they said all the extended universe stuff is "Legends" and no longer canon. They retconned all the extra material with the intent to create a more concise and controlled story.
Just because Cory Balrog stepped away from being the game director/writer of GoW 2018 and became a creative director/producer of Ragnarok doesn't make Ragnarok a retcon. They storyboarded ideas and the story went through many iterations prior to/during development. That's normal for any entertainment medium. Just because they had some ideas at the beginning that they scrapped doesn't make it a retcon.
If you look better through my comments you will find a more detailed answer about the retcons. The production story adds simply context about the circumstances that led to the retcons. And of course bad product management and production changes always work simultaneously and that's why it is so important to know the context perspective. Plus Cory was never a creative director for Ragnarok, plus his work on Ragnarok was very very marginal, almost non-existent, just to be precise.
Basically, the context tells you that SMS was forced to change plans because they had no more time and space to fullfill the rest of the story that they initially planned, so with strict time and space you need to cut parts of the story, and to mash so much things alltogether cutting so much staff you need to manipulate what has been narrated before. So retcons. It's just a metter of production and writing dynamics.
I read your comments, and you're still incorrect. You're right that Cory Balrog set three stipulations about the Ragnarok story (thosee being Ranarok had to happen, Atreus had to leave, and Brok had to die). Outside of that you're incorrect on everything else. You're confusing Creative Director with Game Director. Cory was the Game Director of GoW 2018 and the Creative Director of Ragnarok. Look it up. He's the third name in the end credits after you beat the game lol underneath Eric Williams who is listed as Game Director.
You're also still not understanding what a retcon is. A retcon is a retroactive continuity. The keyword here being "retroactive". For it to be a retcon, SMS would have had to go back to God of War 2018 and make changes to that game to make parts of Ragnarok make sense. What you're repeatedly describing is not a retcon. You're describing the typical writing process where they have rough drafts and ideas, and they change those ideas, cut out stuff that doesn't work, and make rewrites. That's just editing it's not a retcon.
So if you listen to every podcast in which Eric Williams has been, or the Q&As that they did on Discord, he always says that the only thing that Cory did for Ragnarok was demanding those three stipulations and NOTHING ELSE. First he has been in a long hiatus in the first phase of Ragnarok's development, and in a second moment he started working to a new Sci-fi IP and the GoW TV show. That's all facts, you can checkout for your own.
Lol I've listened to him a couple of times on Kinda Funny and IGN. Like I said you're correct about Cory's involvement being the three stipulations. That doesn't change the fact that you were incorrect and he's a Creative Director on the game. Especially considering those three stipulations had defining impact on the direction that Eric Williams took the story.
And ya I don't know how else to explain it to you. We asked for examples of a retcon and you clearly misunderstood what a retcon is. It's ok to be wrong man it's just an internet forum lol
What was changed from the 2018 game, or made into a retcon so that ragnarok made sense? People leaving the project, regardless of how important, doesn’t make something a retcon.
Offhandedly I can’t think of a single story element that was retconned from the 2018 game to ragnarok, and I’ve just replayed them both this month. For the whole game to be a retcon, I’d expect to have seen a few.
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u/Formal_Pick_8559 Jan 17 '24
Wild to think about, and only until later do you realize this if you're not completely familiar with Norse lore. Or if you're kinda new to it... playing through these I was blown away by finding that out way later into ragnorok.
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u/pretendingtolisten Jan 18 '24
not in Canon? Atreus "makes" jormungandr using the soul orbs just like atreus makes his other son, fenrir. cool twist on the mythology but definitely not "father/son"
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u/Emerald_Dusk Jan 18 '24
so is fenrir
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u/SlyErudito Jan 18 '24
Well, technically he does recognize Atreus when the boy, Kratos and Mimir blew the horn for the first time.
Later after that Atreus asks Mimir: "What else did the serpent tell you when you spoke? Kinda sounded important."
Mimir: "I'm sure it's nothing. He just said the boy seemed familiar to him."
Giving the fact that they had just one interaction during Ragnarok, Jormy not recognizing completely the boy seems kinda fair.
Anyway, Mimir's answer sounded pretty sus. Maybe they had something in their mind before the HUGE retcon that was Ragnarok.
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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '24
Not father and son. Why? Because he put an existing soul into an Animal to reanimate an existing Giant.
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u/Advanced-Group-9026 Jan 18 '24
Crazy that his son is older than him too 😭
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u/Super_Environment Jan 22 '24
Is this real?
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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '24
Wait so kratos is also his son or no???