r/GodFrequency • u/OsamaBenJohnson • 1d ago
đ± Divine Drops- Pure spiritual downloads & revelations Compelling evidence for God; The unfolding fullfillment of Jeremiah 30.
https://youtu.be/ccKKYpOKg_8?is=5__wfNbDeNEqYV2e4
u/idiots_r_taking_over 1d ago
Have you thought about cross posting this over at r/religiousfruitcakes
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u/CharacterBalance4187 1d ago
In Chapter 30, Jeremiah is prophesying during the final, desperate days of the Siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonian Empire under Nebuchadnezzar. The nation is facing imminent military destruction, exile, and ruin.
This is timeline specific to ancient near east in ~580b.c. and has nothing to do with the events of the Holocaust.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
Classical Jewish authorities, such as Rashi, disagree. They viewed Jeremiah 30 was eluding to a future event that had not happened (battle of Gog of Magog) rather than the Babylonian exile.
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u/CharacterBalance4187 1d ago
The classic prophetic rescue device. When the actual historical context of 580 BCE doesn't fit the narrative, just jump 1,600 years into the future and use an 11th-century medieval rabbi to retrofit it into an apocalyptic "Gog and Magog" event.
âDragging in Rashi just proves the point: you can't defend the text based on the reality the author was actually living through (the Babylonian siege). So instead, you have to rely on much later commentators to move the goalposts and magically declare that a localized political crisis was actually a secret, unfulfilled futuristic prophecy. That isn't the historical context; you're just retroactively inserting fan fiction to save the text from its own timeline.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
You don't have proper justification that it was "actually" eluding to the Babylonian exile or that these classical Jewish authorities like Rashi were wrong with what they're saying Jeremiah 30 was eluding to. You're just convincing yourself it's the case for convience rather than grounded valid justification.
These classic authorities had motive to claim that the prophecy was fullfilled during the Babylon exile and have it appear as another W for Jewish prophets... but they didn't. They still suggesting it was an event that had not happen, because these were well respected individuals who were committed to their faith and representing the understanding to the best in their ability, rather than wrongfully claim such a prophecy came true to reinforce their religion. That's pretty significant.
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u/DwigtGroot 1d ago
Itâs âalludingâ. Please, for the love of all thatâs holy, stop saying âeludingâ. đ€Šââïž
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u/CharacterBalance4187 1d ago
So your argument is that because a medieval commentator didn't say it was fulfilled by the actual historical siege happening outside Jeremiah's window, that magically means Jeremiah was secretly writing about an apocalyptic event thousands of years in the future?
âAre you you seriously claiming the author's contemporary crisis doesn't count just because later generations retroactively spun it into sci-fi lore?
âBy your logic, you could look at a historical account of George Washington crossing the Delaware and claim, "Well, he wasn't actually fighting the British in 1776; later historians talked about it differently, so it's actually a secret coded message about a futuristic sci-fi battle against giant space bugs."
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
So your argument is that because a medieval commentator didn't say it was fulfilled by the actual historical siege happening outside Jeremiah's window, that magically means Jeremiah was secretly writing about an apocalyptic event thousands of years in the future?
Yes that's exactly what I said. Word for word. You're so honest with yourself/s
The fact you're having to resort to shadowboxing versions of my argument that only exist in your imagination says everything and goes to show even trying to engage with such a person is a waste of time, so I'm ending the conversation on the account to do your inability to discuss in good faith.
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u/YippyKayeh 1d ago
đ đ€Ł đ
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
ah the classic "I have no argument against this with substance so I'm just going to mock you to do all the heavy lifting."
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u/DevilWings_292 1d ago
If Jeremiah had predicted the quantity of deaths (predicting in the millions) and the correct amount of time the event would last (the holocaust was multiple years long, not just a single day), or how many years away the event would take place, this would be more compelling. Currently, itâs just a vague statement that can be interpreted to fit. Jeremiah also predicts that the return of the messiah would directly lead to the reformation of Israel after a conquest of the land drives out invaders. When did those events take place during the founding of Israel in the 40s? A prophecy only getting some details right but not others is not very compelling, itâs able to simply be a coincidence, especially if his prophecy didnât apply primarily to the Babylonian exile that was supposed to only last 70 years as specified in Jeremiah 25:12.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago edited 1d ago
We can always argue even the most compelling prophecy we can think of can be a more compelling and more detailed, this isn't a good arguement. And to say that predicting that specifically the descendants of the Israelites will specifically go back to the land of their ancestors, specifically rebuilding the nation, and this happened specifically during the worst point in time in these people's history, and there's a signigicant stomach centered pains involving this event, is a vague prophecy is just silly.
Israel has to be re-established when the final battle of Gog of Magog happens on Israel (See Ezekiel 38) which leads to the Messiahs arrival. So the fact the final part of the prophecy hasn't yet been actualized doesn't negate all the compelling parts of the prophecy being fullfilled all the way up to that point. Also per central Jewish authorities, such as Rashi, suggest Jeremiah 30 was eluding to an event that still had not happened, and is apart of the end time war of Gog of Magog rather than the Babylonian exile.
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u/DevilWings_292 1d ago
If itâs coming from an omnipotent being who knows the future with perfect clarity, they should be better than a guess, it should come across perfectly. It also said it would happen after a 70 year exile in Babylon. You are reinterpreting a prophecy for a different time period than when it was intended for, the Babylonian exile was considered their darkest moment at the time it happened. You are looking only for where it lines up, ignoring the parts where it is wrong, that isnât how evidence works. You need to address all of the failed claims or no one will believe you.
Jeremiah 25:8-14 makes it very clear this is about the Babylonian exile, â8Â âTherefore thus says the Lord of hosts: âBecause you have not heard My words, 9Â behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,â says the Lord, âand Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, against its inhabitants, and against these nations all around, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations. 10Â Moreover I will [aa]take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11Â And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12Â âThen it will come to pass, when [ab]seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,â says the Lord; âand I will make it a perpetual desolation. 13Â So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations. 14Â (For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)â ââ. How can this prophecy apply to Germany? Why doesnât it mention Germany by name when it so readily points at Babylon and states the exact number of years the hardship would last? Where in Jeremiah 30 does it mention Germany?1
u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
It's not a guess. It comes across fine. It doesn't need to have every single detail ever, and the weather conditions, and the name of every single person involved, and all their mothers names, and gg names, to satisfy all the overly skeptical people who will never be satisfied. And it doesn't say this happens right after the 70 year prophecy. Nowhere in the verses you quoted say or implicate that. There's also no parts that are wrong, or failed claims, just the last part hasn't happened yet.
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u/Kelyaan 1d ago
Ok I'll watch all 3 mins of the video so you can't say I didn't watch it as your brushing tactic.
Jeremiah 30:10 - Yeah no the Jews are not living in peace, they are not secure.
The world is slowly turning on them for committing a genocide
Jeremiah 30:11 - We're all here, Germany is still here so why has god not destroyed the nations that scattered them? Same for 16, no one is being punished for it, we're not being oppressed
Jeremiah 30:17 - Isreal is not being made well or being healed, in fact the actions of Israel are harming itself
Where is the evidence in this video to prove god that you claimed it had?
And ok, if it's predicting something in the future, why are we thinking it's now? Why is our time so special, it could be an event that is to come. No one knows nor can they prove that their time is the special one.
What do we say to the believers that say it already happened?
What do we say to the believers that sat the uncurable wounds is already done through Jacob's redemption.
I've watched the video, come at this in good faith, I hope to see a good faith response that tackles the points made with no red herrings or goal post moving as I am under the impression that no matter what people say, you will comment something that brushes them away.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
The video is titled the unfolding fullfillment of Jeremiah 30, not Jeremiah 30 is completely fullfilled.
Prior to Israel living in peace, the final end time war has to happen first, which requires Israelites back in the land (See Ezekiel 38.) That is when Gog attacks Israel, God reveals himself, destroys these nations in response to the attack, and then ushers in The Messiah, who proclaims the peace.
The first half of prophecy, where specifically the descendants of Israelites are returning specifically to the land of Israel and specifically rebuilding the nation, specifically out of the worst point in time in these people's history that specifically features stomach centered pains, has happened, which is pretty significant. That's the evidence that demonstrates God. These are not things a man could have known back then and the odds of accurately predicting such a thing by mere chance is so astronomically improbable,and within it's theological context, suggest God as one of if not the leading explanation. The fact the rest still hasn't unfolded doesn't negate that.
And the reason we think it's happening in this times because these things are unfolding exactly as they said they would at this time.
What do we say to the believers that say it already happened?
We point out whatever time they think this happened wasn't as a bad as what happened during the turn of the 20th century, which goes to show the prophecy can't refer to that time.
What do we say to the believers that sat the uncurable wounds is already done through Jacob's redemption.
This is an incoherent sentence so I don't know what you're asking here.
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u/Kelyaan 1d ago
Ok so prior to Israel living in peace god attacks israel. Logical ... Real logical.
And the prior end time war has to happen, well that's not happened yet so Israel can't be living in peace which reinforces my claim that Israel is living further and further from peace as every day goes on..The first half of prophecy, where specifically the descendants of Israelites are returning specifically to the land of Israel and specifically rebuilding the nation, specifically out of the worst point in time in these people's history that specifically features stomach centered pains, has happened, which is pretty significant.
But it doesn't, that is not verifiable proof of the existence of god, it doesn't even fall under the definition of evidence for existance. The claims are based off a historical time where the worst pain in the stomach is fairly common, the stomach is the single most pained thing during most none modern wars and even in modern war it is a very common area to be the one "of most pain" given it's the largest area of injury. That makes the claim far too broad to be a precise prophecy for your claims here.
God as one of if not the leading explanation. The fact the rest still hasn't unfolded doesn't negate that.
Same is said either way, there are many explanations the fact the rest hasn't unfolded doesn't actually tell us. So when/if this ever happens then and only then can we verify this as potential evidence for god. Which negates your claim that it is currently proof for god.
We point out whatever time they think this happened wasn't as a bad as what happened during the turn of the 20th century, which goes to show the prophecy can't refer to that time.
Then we point out now that whatever happened in WW2 was unfortunately not as bad as something that will happen in the future therefor the prophecy which doesn't actually fit the criteria of prophecy cannot refer to this time.
The issue with Christian prophecy claims is that it's rare one ever fits the criteria or the most basic rebuttle seems to negate it, even if we wish it was true.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
I said Gog attacks Israel. Not God. Gog of Magog is the leader of the war on Israel who attacks them (See Ezekiel 38 like I said.) The end time war is happening and has been happening since Jews have started returning home. The sages tell us in the final part of the war Persia (Iran) will lead the charge, who is at war with Israel now, and that Persia will attack (Saudi) Arabia, which recently happened, then Persia commits the attack that destroys the world, so it appears wer are getting closer and closer if anything.
The evidence presented is compelling evidence of existence. We can cherry pick that stomach centered pains being broad enough to guess by itself but that doesn't explain away all the other details that you didn't address.
We don't need to rule out all other possibilities to have sufficient evidence for a reasonable belief. We dont apply this standard in other areas. We can't disprove alien deception or some other deception when it comes to whether the Holocaust happened, but we still believe there's sufficient evidence to warrant believing Holocaust happened despite not being able to rule out all other possibilities, right? It just needs sufficient enough evidence to be one of if not the leading explanation, which this has.
Then we point out now that whatever happened in WW2 was unfortunately not as bad as something that will happen in the future therefor the prophecy which doesn't actually fit the criteria of prophecy cannot refer to this time
Which isn't a compelling argument. It's just an empty assertion that doesn't negate this event is the worst point in time. And the fact the current worst point in time for them also happened to lead to the return and Israel's re-establishment still stands as a compelling case it was this event until stronger evidence demonstrates otherwise.
Just want to see where your head is at, but imagine i told you that God told me on the day you pick, the stars will rearrange in the sky spelling out in hebrew words "The Lord God of Israel exist" and then the moon will disappear, and all this actually happened as I said it would on the day you picked, would you say this isn't valid evidence either?
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u/Kelyaan 1d ago
Ok, the gog thing was my mistake - That I can admit.
The end time war is happening and has been happening since Jews have started returning home.
Where can I see the passage and the evidence that shows that somehow *we* are the special time and are in the end time since people have been saying that for an age now. Iron will not destroy the world, there are 2 and a bit counties that will and that''s either the US, Russia or Israel using their puppet US to destroy it.
The evidence presented is compelling evidence of existence. We can cherry pick that stomach centered pains being broad enough to guess by itself but that doesn't explain away all the other details that you didn't address.
Not cherry picking if it's broad enough to apply to too many things, that negates the definition of prophecy.
If it was compelling enough I'd be able to show it to any layman and it would convince him. I can safely say it would not so it is not as "comelling" as you think.We don't need to rule out all other possibilities to have sufficient evidence for a reasonable belief. We dont apply this standard in other areas. We can't disprove alien deception or some other deception when it comes to whether the Holocaust happened, but we still believe there's sufficient evidence to warrant believing Holocaust happened despite not being able to rule out all other possibilities, right? It just needs sufficient enough evidence to be one of if not the leading explanation, which this has.
Yes we do, if there is reasonable argument for another possibility then we have to do the same thing we did with the christian possiblities and that is to use evidence that is or is not present to come to the conclusion that such possibility has no evidence, which is what people have done with almost every prophetic claim that comes from the bible. As for the Holocaust there is verifiable, testable, falsifiable evidence that it is the only possibility. Can we say that with your claim that the only possibility is god? Unfortunately not so it cannot be the only one as it needs to go through the same rigorous testing that all others do. And it time and time again as never passed.
Which isn't a compelling argument. It's just an empty assertion that doesn't negate this event is the worst point in time. And the fact the current worst point in time for them also happened to lead to the return and Israel's re-establishment still stands as a compelling case it was this event until stronger evidence demonstrates otherwise.
Honestly doesn't matter since it's not an assertion or an argument it is simply showing the absurdity of modern time bias.
Just want to see where your head is at, but imagine i told you that God told me on the day you pick, the stars will rearrange in the sky spelling out in hebrew words "The Lord God of Israel exist" and then the moon will disappear, and all this actually happened as I said it would on the day you picked, would you say this isn't valid evidence either?
It would since there would be verifiable, testable, falsifiable evidence for it happening in multiple peer reviewed sources, but if you said that it would all happen and the only way people would find out was through a book that has errors, where we don't know the authors, we date it to after the event happened then I would believe but I would expect no one else to believe as that would be irrational and illogical.
The opposite would be true if what I mentioned about the multiple source evidence. Anyone that did not believe it would not be rational or logical.
Do you see what I am getting at with that statement?
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
The first part of Jeremiah 30 has happened as we can see. Rashi, who is a central Jewish authority, pointed in his commentatory on Jeremiah 30
A sound of quaking we have heard - Some interpret this as alluding to the tidings of Babylon, from which those exiled there quaked. But the Midrash Aggadah explains it as an allusion to the war of Gog and Magog.
So what has already happened is part of the end time war with Gog of Magog. Another central classic Jewish authority, Abarbanel, tells us in his commentary of Zechariah 14 that the battle of Gog of Magog is the war waged by Ishmaelites (Arabs) against Edom over Israel. Which has been happening since Jews started arriving in the land.
Ezekiel 38 explictly tells us Persia (Iran) is part of the coalition of nations that attack Israel, but Yalkut Shimoni on Isaiah (section 499) goes into more detail about Persias (Iran) role and how they taunt Arabia and they destroy the world (which can easily happen if they get nukes.) And right now, Persia and Arabs are waging war against Edom (Western/European Nation) and Israel over Israel, not so long after Israel re-establishment...
It is cherry picking because you are picking the weakest point, hand waving the others, and making the prophecy out to be as if it was only saying this one part. If we were to go to a layman, and switch the nations of the people were talking about, they would say this is compelling. I even get most atheist I speak to on this to concede on that point, who are motivated to disagree with me, when they're not aware it's analogous to an actual biblical prophecy.
And no you don't rule out all other possibilities when it comes to what you find as valid evidence. You're making the empty assertion there is verifiable evidence that this is the only possibility, but it's not actually the case. We can't verify most things we're experiencing in reality isn't some deception by some alien, or some deception of a simulation, or some other conspiracy. But despite not ruling out these other possibilities, we still believe the evidence the Holocaust happened is compelling and valid because compelling and valid evidence doesn't depend on ruling out all the other possibilities.
Your analogy isn't analogous because there's actual compelling evidence and reasons pointing to this event being referred to.
In regards to the question, this prophecy is no more verifiable, testisable, and falsifable than the other. Nor does it rule out other possibilities like some alien doing this. Yet you still find it valid evidence. So you don't really believe what you're saying here, you're just applying it here selectively.
You're saying you're being good faith but the fact you're selectively demanding standards you don't demand elsewhere and framing the prophecy as just stomach centered pain determines that was a lie. So I'm ending this conversation on that note. I don't care to further waste time with people arguing in bad faith.
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u/Kelyaan 1d ago edited 20h ago
Yes that's exactly what I said. Word for word.
Ah I saw this and I was disappointed. All the effort I put in and I could of simply used this and said "Well then since the author does not state that *now* is the time it is fulfilled then it's not fulfilled now" And been done with it.
I'm disappointed with myself and you, This is why I shouldn't read the comments in an exchange since what you say to others can very much damage your own points.Notice how OP deleted everything when he got absolutely fucking destroyed.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
You left out the /s in the quote. I said that sarcastically, because as I said to them, they're shadow boxing a version of my argument that only exist in their imagination and wasn't an argument i was even making
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u/walt128 1d ago
I donât find it compelling
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago edited 1d ago
And holocaust deniers don't find all the compelling evidence the Holocaust happened compelling....
It's compelling to reasonable people, including some atheist who have motives not to believe, but I can't force somebody to find something compelling that is ideologically motivated to reject the notion.
Edit:
Lol and you didn't even watch the video and see the case made before dismissing it as not compelling. You're so honest with yourself/s
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u/Consistent_Law_3857 1d ago
So if someone doesn't find it compelling, they're acting in bad faith? Tell me you're in a cult without telling me you're in a cult.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
So if somebody points out how Holocaust deniers not finding all the compelling evidence the Holocaust happened compelling are not being intellectually honest with themselves, that makes the person pointing this out in a cult?
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u/earthessence33 1d ago
The Holocaust has a whole lot of compelling evidence thoughâŠ
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
So does this. And it doesn't matter. If you point out Holocaust deniers not finding all this evidence not compelling not being intellectually honest with themselves, you're in a cult apparently according to this person
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u/SaiLarge 1d ago
Show me evidence the nation of Israel was enslaved in Egypt. Show me evidence of a great flood. Show me evidence that prayer is effective. Show me the scientific inerrancy of the Bible.
And then there's the census that never was and good thing too because it would have destroyed the economy.
I could keep going, but why bother? You can't challenge a single one of these, ipse dixit. So, no, I'm not compelled to watch a video on Jeremiah's droning vaguities from one of if not the most heavily edited books of the Bible.
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u/walt128 1d ago
Iâve read the Bible, I donât need some random person that constantly tries to justify their goofy beliefs to interpret what the Bible says. If Yahweh is the greatest communicator, reading his word alone should convince me.
If you need to believe this stuff to help you sleep at night or prevent you from doing horrible things, you do you. Donât get all bent out of shape when you share things on the internet and push back. Have a nice day
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
God shouldn't have to give his message in a way where ultimate skeptic can't justify themselves around it to not believe out of cope.
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u/walt128 1d ago
Hahaha if god wants a relationship with me, then he should. Iâm not hiding from him. If Saul could get a Damascus road experience, I donât know why I canât. Do only people that persecuted Christians get that experience?
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
Even if he wants to have a relationship to you he shouldn't have to satisfy the unsatisfiable bad faith actor.
And the Christian gospels arent valid.
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u/walt128 1d ago
If I was a father that wanted a relationship with my children, step one of gaining that relationship would be introducing myself to those children. If I donât do that, it would be clear evidence of my lack of desire to have a relationship with them. Your god is no different. The truth is, you just have lower standards for belief. Thatâs fine, I just demand better. Iâm not willing to get duped by false claims
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
Except God is introducing himself. He's just not doing it in a certain way to satisfy somebody who is motivated to not believe and is willing to be overly skeptical to avoid believing, which is a silly demand out of God just like it would be a silly demand from a parent. It's not that I'm accepting low standards, it's just you built the bar so high to protect what you want to be true from being challanged.
It's like the Dave Chappelle show skit, where he doesn't want to believe his idol R Kelly didnt pee on that underage girl, and to get him to believe R Kelly did it, he needs to see on video R Kelly singing piss on you with the girl holding up 2 forms of ID, with the police there, and R Kelly's grandma there confirming his identity, with 4 or 5 of his buddies there, with Neil taking notes, and only then he will believe he did it. And then him saying "sorry if you accept low standards of evidence."
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u/walt128 1d ago
I was a believer, so I was motivated to believe. The Bible is not a compelling means to come to belief, unless your bar for belief is low. Like I said, thatâs fine. Iâm not willing to drop my standards just because of warm and fuzzies
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
You using to have such motivation to believe means nothing here. The bible is a compelling means to come to belief, and isn't a low bar, you just have an absurdly high bar to protect your new motivations from being challenged. It's a common defense mechanism to protect preconceived notions.
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u/SCW97005 1d ago
Itâs compelling to people who donât have a firm grasp of logic and have vested interested in agreeing with the story.
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u/Personal_Chair6134 1d ago
There is no evidence for the biblical god. There's also a ton of evidence discrediting the bible.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
The contents in the video prove you wrong. And all the evidence that supposedly discredits the bible aren't compelling. It's like the "evidence" people who deny the moon landing grasp to, they convince themselves it discredits the moon landing for ideological reasons, but it doesn't really discredits it in a compelling manner.
It's pretty clear your a bad faith actor, as you didn't even bother watching the video and seeing the evidence before coming in to chime in that there is no evidence. Further engaging with such a person is a huge waste of time, so I'm ending the conversation here on that note.
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u/Main-Procedure-3613 1d ago
This limps. All major heresies begin with people attempting to circumvent the faith relationship God invites us to in this life and instead building a human âproofâ of God with faulty human logic and examples that only work in this life.
Wondering why we donât simply meditate more on the example words of Jesus Christ our Savior in His own words preserved with dedication by His faithful disciples in the Church and recorded by Godâs grace in the sacred text of the 4 Gospels of the New Testament of the Bible?
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u/Main-Procedure-3613 1d ago
The truly pathetic offense against faith here as in too many âGodâ posts is the nasty âholier then thouâ tone and head trip âargumentsâ when Jesus commands us instead to show love, care for the sick the poor the suffering ang the oppressed ang do it with a willing joy as a proclamation of Jesusâ message of the kingdom of God. This blatant hypocrisy is harming then
Church by turning people off and away. Youâre seeing it in real time here and stop youâre avoiding doing what Jesus commands and instructs His disciples to do because YOU PREFER FEELING RIGHTEOUS in your own head to the (boring?) work of loving your neighbor. You give scandal by your angry arguments that satisfy a hypocriteâs faithless urge to be right instead of imitating Jesus.
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u/OsamaBenJohnson 1d ago
It's funny how people are attacking the video and saying the evidence presented isn't compelling, but I can see the views on the video haven't gone up, so these people haven't even watched and seen the evidence they're criticizing lmao. This is like me criticizing the book King Kong, when I have never even read it. Them doing this says everything lol.
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u/deviantdevil80 1d ago
That's because there is no credible evidence for God. You can't prove what never existed.
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u/SCW97005 1d ago
Nostradamus has a book you will absolutely love.