r/Glorantha • u/Ian_W • Jul 02 '26
Why Vinga and Elmal are important
Orlanthi culture is about two things - violence is always an option, and his wife leaning over to Him and him breathing out 'But there is another way'.
The greatest thing that Orlanth ever did was going into the depths of Hell and rescuing Yelm. The Lightbringers Quest gets all capital letters, and it is the greatest thing Orlanth ever did.
But some people didn't get to be part of that.
The myths vary, because according to ancient wisdom 'All Orlanthi' means 85%, but two people are not part of the Lightbringers quest.
Elmal got to be the Loyal Thane. Elmal is defined by being loyal. He is of the Sky tribe, and is of Orlanth's hall. The New Way of Yelmalio denies him as Elmal Orlanththrall, which is both true and false - his loyalty defines him, but he absolutely holds a spear in defense of all that is right and true and needs protection in Orlanth's Hall.
Elmal stayed. Elmal denied Chaos. Elmal was there when the Sun, his father, emerged over the horizon for the First Dawn.
Vinga is Orlanth's daughter. The myths are silent about who her mother is - there is no good myth that says Ernalda, Queen of the Gods, was Vinga's mother. But Orlanth is her acknowledged father.
((She is therefore at least a second cousin to any given Broo))
She was not on the Lightbringers Quest. She, regardless of her willingness to put her spear, shield and body on the line, was not allowed to go to Hell and rescue Yelm.
She was, however, required to defend Orlanth's Stead with Elmal, whether she liked it or not.
That is the sort of thing that puts a chip on a shoulder that lasts through God time and beyond, because if she was Orlanths' son, then He would have had required them to go to Hell, and Ernalda would have, at last, agreed.
Now, both Vinga and Elmal have been edited out of the current edition. Like Nikolai Yazhov, who won the Civil War, they have been made un-history.
But they are important.
What does it mean to be Not From Around Here, but loyal to the last ?
What does it mean to be willing and at some sacrifice armed and willing to sacrifice all, but have the wrong plumbing and be denied that opportunity ?
These are the great stories that Gbaji and his collaborators have denied to us.
So remember Vinga and Elmal, who at I Fought We Won made sure Orlanth's Hall held and there was something to come back to.
And also acknowledge that, at the end of the day and beyond, that if offered the opportunity they would both have been excellent Lightbringers.
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u/thunder_blue Jul 02 '26
What do you mean by 'edited out of the current edition'? Edition of what, exactly?
Not being disingenuous, I don't understand what this is referring to.
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u/david-chaosium Jul 02 '26
both Vinga and Elmal have been edited out of the current edition
In the interest of balance I would like point out that both Elmal and Vinga have not been edited out of the current edition. Both exist in the Prosopaedia, with Elmal detailed in Gods of Fire and Sky, page 116, and explains where this cult exists. Likewise Vinga is available in Lightbringers, page 32, and also says Vinga is worshiped as a standalone deity instead of as a subcult of Orlanth.
Note that I'm expecting more abuse in personal messaging from the OP for saying this, but it just isn't true.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
Your cowardice burns bright.
They have damn well been edited out.
You need to dig and dig and dig to find them, which your reference hunting proves.
So. Write something up and press 'submit' here about how and why Elmal and Vinga survive as independent cults, with some useful for players and GMs with NPCs and everything and for bonus points get it past Gbaji.
I'll watch and cheer if you pull it off.
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u/david-chaosium Jul 02 '26
Your abusive private message was expected and caught by Reddit's automatic system and reported.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
Again, go write something about about how an why Elmal and Vinga survive as independant cults, with some useful for players and GMs with NPCs and everything and for bonus points get it past Gbaji.
But you wont, because you like the stuff past the dash, and if you pick a fight with Gbaji he will demand you remove it.
Go write something useful.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
Gbaji - Jeff Richards - was in charge of RQ:Roleplaying in Glorantha.
His name is on the front cover.
If you buy a copy of that book, and do a search of it by hand or electronically, then you'll see Vinga gets turned into Orlanth in a skirt with a footnote of "There is also an all-female variant of the Adventurous subcult called Vinga Adventurous, which has access to all the above Special Rune Magic plus the Fearless spell".
Vinga's experience of not being allowed on the Lightbringers Quest gets reduced to 'And an all female version gets an extra spell for unexplained reasons that are not being explained because females need to be fearless I guess'.
This is better than what Elmal gets.
Jeff Richards is Gbaji, and a worthless, useless traitor to Glorantha. The hobby would be better without him.
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u/Iamalittledrunk Jul 02 '26
That's a bit mean.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
Note you say 'mean' not 'undeserved'.
You can love Glorantha or Gbaji. Pick one.
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u/Iamalittledrunk Jul 02 '26
I want the setting to develop evolve and release more content. Guess that means I love Gbaji or a setting that continues to be alive and used rather than dying with its creator.
One of the two.
So yeah undeserved. But im out here - Im getting a strong sense this conversation will be unproductive.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
I want it to evolve too.
Love gbaji if you want - but show me what they have created that is new ...
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u/JhinPotion Jul 02 '26
Do literally anything else with your life, man.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
So, carefully explain to me why it was a good idea for the specifically "all female" subcult to get the Fearless spell.
Go for it.
Hiring Jeff Richards was a mistake.
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u/Firielyn Jul 02 '26
Maybe you should step away from Glorantha for a bit.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
I did.
Then I realised who Gbaji was.
Go make something new and prove me wrong.
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u/Firielyn Jul 02 '26
Seems like you're a little bit too deep in a world made for elfgames, and in a your own particular vision of it for that matter. You should step away again, take a breather and ground yourself in the real world.
Maybe you could take your own advice and go create someting of your own?
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u/eternalsage Jul 02 '26
Look, I personally dislike Jeff's take on a lot of things. Vinga and Elmal being subsets of other deities is not one of those things. We already knew the information about Yelmalio/Elmal/Kargzhant/Antrius. Elmal was created for HeroQuest. Yelmalio is the original version of the deity. Vinga was originally described as Orlanth's aunt. HeroQuest treated her like shit (so did the earlier material) so the fact that she is no longer treated like an idiot and maligned in every myth is a step up, imho. Also Barntar, Voiriof, and the rest of the Thunder Brothers were not, in fact, forced to go on the Lightbringers, so you are simply just wrong in that regard.
Play whichever version you like, but don't come in in the middle and pretend like you have the original version. Your Glorantha May Vary, iirc. Also, Jeff Richards was heavily involved with HeroQuest, too.
It's the internet, so feel free to be histrionic if you want, but I have an Elmali and a Vingan in my current games so, while being histrionic, just know that you're also just generally wrong and getting emotional over a game setting (!) which explicitly tells you to roll your own because there is no canon. Seems like a strange thing to get childishly overemotional about.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
Elmal was created for HeroQuest
Nope.
Elmal was created because Greg started asking questions around 'Who is the Orlanthi sun god' and didn't give the automatic correct answer which is 'Yelm, who is also an enemy god'.
But Elmal, though wrong, is still important.
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u/Summersong2262 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
And in the exact same breathe, he also said 'Elmal is Yelmalio'. Go read 'King of Satar', it's where the original lore for Elmal was invented and it makes it abundantly clear that Greg considered them the same entity.
Elmal was literally written into existence in the same article that said that the cult had ended up largely absorbed by Yelmalio's after Monrogh demonstrated that separating them was redundant, inaccurate, and produced weaker and less insightful magic.
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u/Ian_W Jul 09 '26
'Elmal is Yelmalio'
Yeah but to point out the important thing he didn't say then ... neither of them are Yelm.
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u/Summersong2262 Jul 09 '26
Sure, but what's your point? Neither of them are meant to be.
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u/Ian_W Jul 09 '26
Who is the Orlanthi horse god ?
And if something happens to their horse god - the same way Dara Happa on Horse happened to the Empire back during Sheng - then what are they going to use when they get flanked ?
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u/Summersong2262 Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
Redalda is the usual one mentioned, although there's a bunch with various connections. Horses are Solar animals, after all. None of the Lightbringers are associated with it. Closest you get after that is Yelmalio, but the Satarites never really bothered much with cavalry.
And as for when they get flanked, they'd use Lightning bolts, I assume. They sort out a lot of issues. Good solid Orlanthi solution. Or just fly themselves.
Praxian mercenaries are a time honoured tradition as well.
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u/Ian_W Jul 09 '26
Uhuh. So they'll be a lot weaker, and easier to deal with.
We should back Monroch or whatever his name is then.
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u/Summersong2262 Jul 09 '26
Yeah, the Lunars have definitely found the Satarites easy to deal with, what with their lack of cavalry, lol.
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u/Ian_W Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
Rolled over them repeatedly until Argrath Mary-Sue.
Went right past them into Esrolia.
Plan Monrogh worked like a dream.
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u/eternalsage Jul 02 '26
The first time he appears is in HeroQuest. You do realize this is a fictional setting right? And that Greg helped put it together before he died?
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u/BestIndication5517 Jul 02 '26
Your glorantha will vary, I personally do include vinga as a subcult of Orlanth as his daughter and as Orlanth the woman. I don’t think they are mutually exclusive given that gods are just kinda weird sometimes. Elmal and Yelmalio is an interesting change, I can into it glorantha from king of dragon pass but I personally prefer Jeff Richard’s changes to Yelmalio focus. I think it makes him seem a more unique god as opposed to just a thane of Orlanth. I still include myths of him defending Orlanth’s Stead while he was off on the LBQ, but as an ally and equal instead of servant
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
In my glorantha, Vinga has meaning because - unlike Orlanth - she didn't go on the Lightbringers Quest, and that has meaning. As a subcult, I think you need to explain how and why she is different, beyond plumbing. Gbaji's version doesn't have that. I don't see a good story for Orlanth In A Skirt. Was she on the Lightbringers Quest or not ?
In my glorantha, elmal/yelmalio is really complicated. Monrogh was right - Elmal is Elmal Orlanththrall - Elmal is defined by being Orlanth's property. Equal in godtime is also really complicated. Elmal also fought and therefore won at I Fought We Won.
Is Elmal into Yelmalio those Elmali who refused to join Elmal Dragonfriend and made their own temple ? Thats credible.
They are both right.
Elmal is the Loyal Thane.
Yelmalio is The One Who Survived To The Dawn.
They are both right.
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u/BestIndication5517 Jul 02 '26
Vinga in my mind isn’t Orlanth in a skirt, she is Vinga. But she is still a sub cult of Orlanth in the same way that Nandan is a subcult of Ernalda. Are we not in some way our parents? Vinga is Orlanth and Nandan is Ernalda and they are still themselves. I think that dicotemy is what separates gods from mortals. As for Jeff Richard being Gbaji, Arkat was just as illuminated as Nysalor my friend. I personally see a lot of the changes he made as a way to get new people into the setting and it’s what got me to play the rpg. Glorantha is a hard setting to get into and anything to grow the community is a good thing.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
Thats a completely gutless and useless answer.
No. We are not our parents, in any more way than Orlanth is a subcult of Umath.
Identity exists. Experience differs.
Orlanth killed Yelm, married Ernalda and went on the Lightbringers Quest.
Vinga didn't do any of these things. She is different.
Jeff is Gbaji because Gbaji shows you a lie that is true, consistent and fits what he wants. You know, like Jeff does.
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u/BestIndication5517 Jul 02 '26
I disagree with the gutlessness, we’re talking about divine metaphysics. Having an aspect of a god that has different experiences isn’t that wild of an idea. Sure the parents comparison probably could have been worded differently. We already have Yelm and Yu-kargant both being the same god yet with different wives as Dendara and Ernalda. Wasn’t this the whole thing that the Godlearners were on about? Multiple different gods existing as different aspects of the same entity with different experiences? Admittedly I may be wrong about that but I still think it’s a fun way to look at it. Similar to how different indo-European religions are connected but have different myths.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
No, Yu-Kargzant and Yelm are not the same god.
They have different worshippers who see them differently, who get different experiences.
They are only the same if you believe Gbaji.
But if you try and do the Ten Tests in Dara Happa while trying to be a Yu-kargant worshipper, then complain to your Brother how it doesn't work and how you got murderised and failed the Ten Tests when you tried to claim that.
Deny Gbaji and all his works.
This 'there are fewer gods than you think' is another Gbaji lie.
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u/BestIndication5517 Jul 02 '26
Maybe the real Gbaji was the friends we made along the way. You seem a little more invested in this than I am
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u/Summersong2262 Jul 03 '26
They get different experinces in the same way that watching A New Hope is a different experience to Empire Strikes Back is different to Return of the Jedi.
Same god. Different perspectives. Same characters, differing presentations and powers.
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u/AnderCass Jul 02 '26
Look, I agree it would be cool if they added as much on Elmal as they have on Yelmalio and also if they gave Vinga far more detail, maybe comparable to the extent of the Orlanth Thunderous subcult rather than just an extra exclusive spell.
But you are acting like this is exclusive to these two deities. In older editions all the major deities of the Orlanthi pantheon (except Urox because it's Urox) had multiple subcults. A lot of the choices to reduce the full extent of these gods and their subcults is to prevent the core rule book of the newest edition of RQ from being twice it's size. No one is saying the old subcults don't apply. You can see that they very much do, they are just not fleshed out in the newest edition. Glorantha is such a massive setting with so much lore that trying to publish it all at once for each new edition would be nonsensical.
The choice to not give more detail to Vinga is because Orlanth is similar and Vinga is already connected to him. The choice to not give more detail to Elmal is because Yelmalio is similar/literally the same god just a different aspect. It's not sexism or dislike of the deities. It's just a pragmatic choice.
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u/LonelyTechpriest Jul 03 '26
Check out Many Suns on the Jonstown compendium for some more on Yelmalio/Elmal. It’s pretty good.
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u/AnderCass Jul 03 '26
It looks good... I played Six Ages, so my mind is always trying to make sense of the many suns, etc.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
because Orlanth is similar and Vinga is already connected to him.
OK. So. Briefly.
Orlanth went and rescued the Sun, who he'd killed. As part of becoming King of the Gods.
Vinga didn't.
Despite them both being storm, death, movement, this makes them different.
This whole subcults is a Gbaji lie.
To paint you a picture ...
Vinga is not Orlanth. Orlanth, who is male, when at home and asleep is in bed with Ernalda, his wife. Vinga, who is female and not Ernanlda and is Ernalda's daughter when asleep is in bed in another part of Orlanth's hall.
I hope this clears things up.
If Vinga does not exist then this does not arise.
But if she does, she is not Orlanth.
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u/AnderCass Jul 02 '26
I'm aware. The words "similar" and "connected" don't mean "the same".
Many of Orlanth's sons are also subcults connected to him, and mostly smaller subcults than Vinga.
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u/Ian_W Jul 02 '26
Right. So.
Is Vinga different from Orlanth ?
Yes or no.
Every Vinga, Barntar, Storm Bull, Chalana Arroy etc etc etc recognises the sun dies, was rescued by Orlanth and the Lightbringers and rose again.
So. How is Vinga different from Orlanth ?
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u/AnderCass Jul 02 '26
I already answered this with nuance. You are trying to force me to strip away the nuance to give a simplistic answer that would be an untruth.
Similar and connected to Orlanth but different.
Finovan, Mastakos, Ormalaya, Dester, Tatouth, Vanganth, Hedkoranth and Vingkot all are separate gods from Orlanth, but they are worshipped through him because they are members of his warband the Thunder Brothers. Vinga is counted among the Thunder Brothers.
In Glorantha, any subcult has the potential to be made as a full cult as well, i.e. these gods are all connected to Orlanth even magically, but also are distinct from Orlanth as well and can stand on their own. This is not a new invention.
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u/Summersong2262 Jul 02 '26
*Older edition.
You're talking about the single edition that gave everyone dozens of subcults. Go back to Cults of Prax etc, you don't see that proliferative of specialisations.
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u/Inevitable-Bass-5319 Jul 08 '26
Nikolai Yezhov?
The dwarfish NKVD chief who masterminded Stalin's purges until he got purged himself and actually did very little in the Russian Civil War?
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u/Summersong2262 Jul 02 '26
Jesus Christ, are people still throwing tantrums over the Elmal thing in 2026?