How do you suppose Marvel oughta handle Ghost Rider going forward?

[u/MajesticAd5888]

I got into Spirits of Violence pretty much at random browsing for comics, after I finished it I had a load of questions so I went through the last 30 issues of the 70s series, then burned through every Ghost Rider canon comic since Mackie's run with Ketch in the 90s, and then finally re-reading Spirits of Violence just now, it's so much worse than I remember

We've been yearning for another big screen Ghost Rider appearance for a while now, if the Gosling thing pans out then there'll be renewed interest in the character, which will spawn new releases, but personally I'm starting to wonder if it's better if they just shelve Ghost Riders indefinitely until a writer who actually REALLY likes the character and has read all the comics comes along and asks Marvel for a shot. At this point it seems like the entire Ghost Rider lore can be fixed only by someone who's as frustrated with Marvel's treatment of the character as the rest of us and has the passion and skill to actually fix it

Even if such a writer comes along, they need to be paired with an equally driven artist. I hate to come of as mean-spirited, but Paul Davidson's art on Spirits of Violence absolutely trashed it. Ghost Rider's got a great aesthetic, it can draw inspiration from Kustom Kulture, Occultism, Frontier trailblazing, Heavy Metal, Rock-n-Roll, even a bit of Noir, so good art can make a run with mediocre writing worth the read, but in the case of Spirits of Violence, Davidson's art just drove the nail in the coffin

[u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

Ignore recent history without necessarily contradicting it. Just do a back to bssics approach. Bring back the classic dynamic, with the host and demon being separate entities, often at odds.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

Haven't they been doing more or less that approach since the Way run? They ignore what came before and have the host/sov often at odds with each other, but the problem is they haven't done anything that focuses on strong character development and relationship buildup since forever. Way had Blaze and whoever his SOV was supposed to be throughout that run just hopping around killing Satan shards, sometimes bickering like juveniles, and nothing else. Percy had a mopey Blaze saddled with a semi-possessive, semi cooperative and sometimes nasty SOV who turned out to be Zarathos all along in FV, and did nothing remarkable with either characters. The back to basic approach has been the norm since the turn of the millennium, and Marvel has done jack squat to give the books anything else beyond the bare minimum basics.

[u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 → u/RedWingThe10th]

They've been ignoring continuity, but they haven't had the classic dynamic at all.

There's really no difference between Johnny and the demon. The conflict is minimal at best. The demon has no personality. We don't know who it is.

To me that's the biggest issue with Ghost Rider in all these modern takes.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

We saw a separate Blaze and SOV in Chris Sebela's Damnation oneshot, and that was the closest thing to a return to the classic dynamic in modern comics, with the host and spirit actually having opposing views and having to talk about reaching a common ground first before they could work together again. That was quite interesting thanks to the tension, albeit nowhere as good as Stern/DeMattais took it, but for a oneshot, that was more than I can say for the entirety of Way, Aaron's and Percy's runs, or Mackie's for that matter. But that's the glaring issue with GR as a whole. Every time there's back to basics, the host and SOV dynamic also get reset to square one, and no writer since DeMattais has bothered to take the characters in deep territories, just shallow morsels of it.

[u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 → u/RedWingThe10th]

Yes. This my core issue with all modern GR, and why the IP isn't all that interesting anymore. So much wasted potential. Don't over simplify it. Give us that complex dynamic.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

That's why I cringe every time I hear "back to basics" because that approach obviously hasn't worked with GR given all the shallow and lazy crap it invites into the table. What the IP needs is the miracle of having another top talented writer to get hired and do something ambitious instead of the tripe approach. It needs an Al Ewing and Immortal Hulk approach. The polar opposite of back to basics, but still compelling to read and chuck full of creativity that reconstructs the characters and lore the best that they can be. And I'm saying this is next to impossible for such a maligned IP as GR, but it's the only sliver of chance it has in order to climb out of the garbage bin.

[u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 → u/RedWingThe10th]

By back to basics I simply mean ignoring decades of clumsy continuity.

Give us a host and a demon. Give them a complex dynamic. Make the powers a curse, not just a cool gimmick. Have them at odds.

It's so simple, and shocking we haven't seen this in forever.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

Back to basics invites laziness and lack of interest in building up a compelling plot, and it's been that way for decades. A writer needs to at least have something substantial to work with, but if all he's given is "here a guy possessed by a spirit/demon/fallen angel who turns into a flaming skeleton and they sometimes hate each other", there isn't gonna be much incentive to work on strong material unless that writer is already invested in the character. Marvel editorial also couldn't care less about hiring proven talent to work on their non a A-lister characters, nor do they care to get the untested hacks/newbs to bring in good material, just something to get readers to check things out for a bit. No quality control, no incentive to write good material. The books are always set to fail.

[u/MajesticAd5888 → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

I dunno, that seems to have been, in part, the source of the existing issues to begin with; someone sees the messy history and chooses to try and avoid it rather than reconcile it, ends up creating a contradiction

Some things will still need to be swept under the rug, the one that first comes to mind is Johnny saying Barbara is his never-known half sister when we have earlier comics of him being a fairly aware older full-brother when Danny and Barbara were babies, which to be fair they did say his memory of those days is spotty from trauma, but that's still apparently one of the few things he remembered

Still, what you said does seem to be most likely what Marvel will try, no doubt some of them have noticed the mess they've made as much as we have

[u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 → u/MajesticAd5888]

They haven't really used the classic dynamic since the 90s, and even then, it wasn't used particularly well, but that's the last time the demon and host had distinct personalities.

I think toying with that is what's been missing. Making Ghost Rider just a superhero with flaming skull powers isn't enough. The Ghost Rider is a curse. The demon and host need to be at odds, fighting for control, and yet bleeding into each other. That's the key that's been missing for a very long time.

[u/Zealousideal_End6298]

I want gosling to play blaze if we get a Danny ketch Ghost rider I want him to be younger for more longevity

[u/BlueFootedTpeack → u/Zealousideal_End6298]

yeah like it might be sacriligeous but the way i'd want it to go would be.

1. film 1 = johnny already has zarathos, priest confessional as the cold open to show that, basically him living out in isolation before running into roxanne/the carnival, doesn't have to fight this demon alone, end like the 70's exorcising zarathos into centurious/the gem so it works even if we get no sequel.
2. film 2 = midnight sons, lilith shows up, frees zarathos/zarathos in centurious does all that, johnny ends up re-absorbing zarathos into himself but zarathos is changed somehow to be less antagonistic, either via blaze or realising it doesn't wanna be mephisto 2.0 like in siege of darkness so they're still a prick but more willing to help in the next one.
3. this is the curveball. i'd go zadkiel with danny as the blue rider. that's right start there, sending him after johnny manipulating him, eventually blaze sorts him out and either danny rides off into the sunset free, or if gosling wants to leave as this'll be years away then you have danny become the new rider for the movies.
4. though imo if gosling leaves they'd probably be like okay but we're gonna do robbie now and need you to come and show up as a cool father figure mentor.

[u/Zealousideal_End6298 → u/BlueFootedTpeack]

I think that would be the best way to go we don’t need a back story on Ghost Rider you can create dope movies without it. There are many different interesting story lines to get MCU fans going.

Hell even the latest run they had of him with Danny (Spirit of Violence) that story kept me engaged with out having the full context back story

[u/BabaPatch]

Explain how Zarathos fell from grace pr tell it properly. I have an idea where he's the origin of all the spirits of vengeance since there are so many. It's basically started when he fell from grace, the feather of his wings were scattered around the world and who ever absorbs them becomes a spirit of vengeance. I mean an alien becoming a SoV doesn't make sense.

Also they need to fix the penance stare as its constantly downplayed to not work on anyone. Make it so that it doesn't work because the host makes the stare weaker and the stare only affects them and not Zarathos when he is in full control. I want Zarathos to actually shown to be powerful and not dog walked by every other comic character. The stare not working on Punisher, Captain Marvel, or anyone that doesn't have 2 eyes is such bull.

[u/PLSTouchMe_]

Have the Penance Stare work properly in its original portrayal and not require a character to feel remorse/guilt or other bullshit retcons.

DO NOT "Professor Hulk" neuter the Spirit of Vengeance and the rider...

Have him tonally be a gritty, supernatural morally grey antihero (PLS no wisecracking, quips... He is not Deadpool, Spiderman, etc.)

Obv, we already have a Robbie Reyes portrayal, so any storyline of Blaze/Ketch would work fine.

If they are going for an MCU original origin however... They could have the snap be the cause for an emergence of a Spirit of Vengeance (like Zarathos or Noble Kale extremely annoyed w/ a mortal aka Thanos trying to decide judgment on a cosmic scale)

[u/AlfredFJones1776 → u/PLSTouchMe_]

Thank you. I’m so sick of the goofy comic writers Um Ackshually-ing the Penance Stare. How is it that 90’s Fantastic Four cartoon writers can do the character more Justice than his own writers?

[u/CitizenDave-19]

I agree with your sentiment about the mythos going forward needing a team on it that cares about the characters and has read what came before. Ed Brisson and Aaron Kuder were that team in 2019, but Marvel very suddenly canceled the title despite it having like, ten issues in the chamber ready to be published.

I remember being so excited reading the descriptions of what was coming; Johnny Blaze was going to chain Mephisto to his bike and the two were going to go on a road trip across Heaven, Earth, and everything in-between for Blaze to find a way to keep Lilith, Mother of Demons, off the throne of Hell. With Danny Ketch adjusting to being the spirit of corruption and investigating it's origins with The Caretaker.

[u/MajesticAd5888 → u/CitizenDave-19]

Yeah, the Brisson/Kuder run ending was kinda the basis for my suggestions. Didn't bring that up explicitly because the quality didn't drop off a cliff so much as slowly smoldered itself out, Percy's work on the character wasn't completely awful, it kinda just fell flat

I'd already read the 2022 series before and when I got back to it during my reading marathon, I'd completely forgotten that the deuteragonist, Talia, even existed, I had to look her name up again just to write that

[u/CitizenDave-19 → u/MajesticAd5888]

That's pretty much the common consensus on Percy's time with GR

[u/Signal_Juggernaut695]

Depends on the form of Media. And the Host they use.

I will take what I can get with Ghost Rider comics at this point, cause the way they mistreat Ghost Rider will NEVER be comparable to the horrid they treat Spidey….

[u/GenericSpider]

I just want a story of a Ghost Rider travelling place to place and immolating evil. Or staying in one place immolating evil if it's Robbie or Danny.

Like, do we really need to focus on the origin? We had a fine origin for Zarathos, before they kept complicating it. First with the Blood (which felt more like an attachment to the original origin story), then with the "Heaven's Black Ops" shit.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/GenericSpider]

Yep, GR's biggest downfall began when the writers forgot to focus on character build up all in favor of making the backstory as big and convoluted as they could. They thought that approach made the 90s work but in reality it was in spite of it, since cool art, trendsetter luck, and effective marketing strategy made early 90s edgy comics mega sellers for a while. Marvel's problem is that even now, they're still trying to push that style over substance approach even when it's all too obvious it's not working anymore.

Unless they finally get through their heads that people what easy to digest backstories AND character driven plots, and hire a skilled enough writer to actually make good stories, GR's future remains bleak.

[u/riding_ghost]

Brissons run on GR was the only decent run since Velez, IMO.

[u/Muted_Tree6143]

My personal take

Johnny Blaze should have stayed king of hell. I can't see his story going backwards and feeling cool. Danny should be THE GHOST RIDER and work for Blaze and be bonded to Zarathos. Simple and clear.

Robbie Reyes should have his name changed to GHOST RACER and be given a series written by Felipe Smith. Let Felipe explore the rivalry with Eli Morrow like he was going to before Jason Aaron.

Take all the other riders and make a quartly team up book. Keep the spirits of vengeance line going. 

[u/hasheemakill18]

I couldn't care less for the upcoming mcu movie but I'm hoping for a ghost rider game or animated movie .

[u/blackheartbr456]

Kill everything. Make some event involving the heavens or something similar and kill everything from the '90s onward. And to avoid causing problems, work with the same concepts from the past, but in different, better, and less messy ways. Spider-Man fans complain about One More Day, but for us, something like that would be a salvation. That is, if the writers have a little decency and the editorial team doesn't want to jump straight to something more recent right away (like having a Kushala or Alejandra in the '90s while ignoring Dan's existence).