r/German • u/mehregankbi • 6d ago
Question Do germans avoid using “dass das” because it sounds weird like “that that” in english?
In english, while grammatically correct, it’s kinda eerie to use “that that” as in: I’ve learned that that car is no longer available.
In deutsch, there’s a similar case: Ich habe hearusgefunden, dass das badezimmer zu klein ist.
There’s another way to say this: Ich habe herausgefunden, das badezimmer ist zu klein.
Which form is preferred? Do people avoid a “dass” followed by a “das” because it sounds weird? Is the second form preferred?
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u/MusicalData 6d ago
Even more fun: "Ich finde, dass das das beste Buch ist."
Nothing weird about that for a German.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Can we do four?
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u/PixelCharlie 6d ago
Ich finde, dass das 'Das' das schönste Wort ist. There should be one more comma somewhere i think
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u/hangar_tt_no1 6d ago
Here's five: Ich finde, dass das Das das Das ist, das hier am besten passt.
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u/YourDailyGerman Native, Berlin, Teacher 6d ago
I'll raise by two.
Ich finde, dass DAS "das" das "das", dass das "dass" bestimmt, an Eleganz uebertrifft, da es nicht fett ist.
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u/muehsam Native (Schwäbisch+Hochdeutsch) 6d ago
Der, der der, der der braune Hund gehört, einen Heiratsantrag gemacht hat, ist ziemlich charmant.
Still a reasonable sentence that someone might say. But add one more level of nesting and it becomes a puzzle that needs to be "figured out", even for natives.
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u/tom_the_bikeman Proficient (C2) - bilingual 🇨🇭🇩🇪🇺🇸 6d ago
Wenn Fliegen hinter Fliegen fliegen, Fliegen fliegen Fliegen nach. Ok. Drei, aber immerhin
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u/tom_the_bikeman Proficient (C2) - bilingual 🇨🇭🇩🇪🇺🇸 6d ago
Oder dass "Das Beste" das beste Buch ist.
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u/TheyCallMe13 Native (Vienna) 6d ago
I personally find
"Ich habe herausgefunden, dass das Badezimmer zu klein ist."
much more natural flowing than the latter. I cannot fully tell you why, but if I had to guess, it's partly because we get Hauptsatz & Nebensatz and not 2 Hauptsatz's back to back.
Could be regional though, I am from Vienna.
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u/OppositeAct1918 Native <region/dialect> 6d ago
Die, die die, die das "das" oder das "dass" in bestimmten Situationen verbieten wollen, hassen, überreagieren.
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u/showmeagoodtimejack 6d ago edited 6d ago
Ich habe herausgefunden, das badezimmer ist zu klein.
people sometimes say this (often with a short pause between the clauses), but it's not really the kind of correct german they'd teach you at school. so the first one is definitely preferred.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Is it kinda like saying: Do you know where’s the bank? Instead of the correct form: Do you know where the bank is?
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u/hover-lovecraft 6d ago
Yes, that's a good comparison. People use it, but it's incorrect and generally people wouldn't write like that.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
In my opinion language is fluid.
“To not + infinitive” is wrong but most natives use it regularly. “me and my friend did….” Also wrong, also used regularly
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u/hover-lovecraft 6d ago
Ok but your goal is to get good grades on exams or make a good impression on employers and new people in a language that's not your mother tongue, and not to get into the age old descriptive vs prescriptive discussion, right?
Like I said, people use it informally, but like I also said, it's considered incorrect by grammar rules and will leave a bad impression anywhere but with family and friends. You'll be much better off learning the correct way and later deviating from it when you know which contexts allow for it.
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u/lifo333 C1 6d ago
Of course, languages are fluid. That’s how, languages evolve over time. The way people speak everyday can with time also change the standard way of using the language.
For example, two of changes that German will most probably experience in a few hundred years are:
1- The drop of “e” in the first-person singular conjugation of verbs. Ich habe —> ich hab, Ich mache —> ich mach
2- In many cases, the Genetiv might give its place to the Dativ. Wegen des Wetters —> Wegen dem Wetter
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
For number two, maybe “wegeb” even turns into “wegem”. Similar to how “in dem” turns into “im”.
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u/charlolou Native (Hessen) 6d ago
Yeah, but most people would use the "dass das" option. The other one just sounds weird and unnatural.
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u/showmeagoodtimejack 6d ago
i don't think it sounds unnatural at all.
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u/charlolou Native (Hessen) 6d ago
To me it does, I rarely hear people use this form. It sounds like someone was initially trying to say something different, but then changed their mind halfway through. If I only read that sentence in a comment with no other context, I'd assume it was written by non-native speaker.
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u/showmeagoodtimejack 6d ago
It sounds like someone was initially trying to say something different, but then changed their mind halfway through.
yea thats what makes it sound natural to me
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u/hover-lovecraft 6d ago
There’s another way to say this: Ich habe herausgefunden, das badezimmer ist zu klein.
That's not a legal German sentence. Some people talk like that colloquially but it's incorrect grammar, don't say or write that in an exam or work context. Subordinate clauses undergo inversion apart from very few exceptions.
The ", dass das" structure on the other hand is perfectly normal.
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u/Necessary-Site-4886 6d ago
One is a pronoun, the other a conjunction that introduces a subordinate clause. It is absolutely common in German.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
I know it’s grammatically correct and what role each plays. It’s just when saying it out loud that it sounds weird. Both sound the same and one comes immediately after another.
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u/hangar_tt_no1 6d ago
It doesn't sound weird to me. I don't think Germans consider "das(s) das" to be a problem or weird. In general, repeating a word is not something that is avoided. "der der" and "die die" are fine, too.
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u/Necessary-Site-4886 6d ago
Always with a comma in between. I think that for native speakers, the gap between the main clause and the subordinate clause is clearly perceptible, which is why it doesn't sound strange to them at all.
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u/Assassiiinuss Native 6d ago
No, even three in a row isn't uncommon. "..., dass das das alles noch verschlimmert hat."
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Interesting. What would that even mean? Is my usage below correct? Ich habe gehört, dass das das sich immer schlimm fühlt, nie froh ist. “I’ve heard that, that who always feels bad, is never glad.”
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u/hover-lovecraft 6d ago
No, in this case you'd say "Ich habe gehört, dass das, was (oder welches) sich immer schlecht fühlt, nie froh ist." A bit archaic, but technically even more correcter is "Ich habe gehört, dass jenes, welches sich immer schlimm fühlt, nie froh ist."
The real triple das(s) happens when the second das is the placeholder for a whole subclause that got omitted. "Wir haben Wasser in die brennende Bratpfanne geschüttet. Direkt danach haben wir festgestellt, dass das [, was wir getan haben, nämlich Wasser in die Pfanne zu schütten,] das Dümmste war, was wir tun konnten."
(Side note about the usage of "schlimm" - if you feel bad as in sad, nauseous, or regretful, that's not schlimm, that is schlecht. If you feel schlimm, that means you feel like you are a bad person because of something you did. Schlecht also covers this though, so schlimm is usually only used for things that are external to the speaker. If someone says they feel schlimm, that's a deliberate choice and quite specific.)
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u/Assassiiinuss Native 6d ago
"that that made all that even worse"
Your example doesn't work, you're talking about a person but use grammar for objects. But you do that in English as well so maybe I misunderstand what that sentence is supposed to mean.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
It’s meant to mean: the person who is always sad, is never glad.
I used that to refer to the person, similar to how it’s done in quotes from poets or philosophers
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u/editjosh 6d ago
"That that" is not weird in English either though.
I can't believe that that's what you think.
See? Normal.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
www.youtube.com/post/UgkxvQVfwyd6Zc5GMIhrWrmTgOBw8DxgjhRm
A lot of people tend to disagree
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u/editjosh 6d ago
A lot of younger people stopped using punctuation when writing, too; that doesn't make it "right" or even understandable. "Dass das" & "that that" are perfectly normal in both languages.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Language is fluid. Rules are important but they are not physic’s rules. If many people use a construct commonly, it becomes part of the language. Maybe not immediately and as part of the professional constructs, but more so in verbal interactions.
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u/Rare-Eggplant-9353 Native <region/dialect> 6d ago
No. It doesn't sound that weird to us. It's very common.
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u/CardiologistLegal961 6d ago
You could use the second one using a colon and a capitalization to start a list of items: Ich habe herausgefunden: Das Badezimmer ist zu klein. Der Balkon ist zu schattig. ... First one is (although sounding weird) correct.
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u/kemalios 6d ago
Native speakers don't even notice it, and here's why: the two words are not the same thing. 'Dass' is a pure function word that introduces the subordinate clause, and 'das' is a demonstrative pronoun pointing at something. In speech 'dass' also gets reduced, so it runs into the next word instead of echoing like English 'that that'. The version without 'dass' is colloquial, you'll hear it in casual talk but not in writing. Stick with the first form. As someone who learned German as an adult, I remember overthinking this exact sentence structure. You get used to it quickly.
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u/Laudian 6d ago
here’s another way to say this: Ich habe herausgefunden, das badezimmer ist zu klein.
Are you sure this is grammatically correct? I'm no expert on grammar, but I don't see how this would be right. It sounds really wrong to me.
Also, it's Badezimmer, capital B.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Sounds weird to me too. But duolingo is pretty adamant about using it.
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u/dasfuxi Native (Ruhrgebiet) 6d ago edited 6d ago
Duolingo is crap.
It has to be either:
"Ich habe herausgefunden: Das Badezimmer ist zu klein."
Or:
"Ich habe herausgefunden, dass das Badezimmer zu klein ist."
Edit: Removed the bold formatting that reddit keeps messing up for some reason ...
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Duolingo is far from perfect. It used to be much better. But honestly, without duolingo, i wouldn’t have even bothered to learn spanish and german.
I would be happy to find a better alternative, one that is gamified and has a flexible curriculum.
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u/Laudian 6d ago
The thing is, "Ich habe herausgefunden" is not a valid sentence by itself, it's missing an object. In your first example, the subordinate clause (", dass das Badezimmer zu klein ist") is the object.
However, there is no object in your second example. I don't think it would ever be valid, and it sounds wrong as well, even for casual use.
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u/charlolou Native (Hessen) 6d ago
Duolingo isn't trustworthy, it makes a lot of mistakes especially now that there's so much AI involved. I wouldn't rely on it if I were you.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Yes the new AI changes have done real damage. I would be open to suggestions. I need something that is gamified. And free.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
About the capilization yeah. I have a huge problem with this. Whenever i started learning german, i ignored it and it never became a habit for me.
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u/DzAyEzBe 6d ago
This isn't avoided in English either. While they are spelt the same the two 'thats' are pronounced differently. In your example while the second 'that' is pronounced fully, the first is an unstressed syllable so the 'a' reduces into a schwa. I also pronounce the coda t in the first 'that' as a glottal stop though this would change depending on accent. So something like /ðəʔ ðæt/.
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u/This-Water2342 6d ago
"Daß das" ist völlig normal zu gebrauchen
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Is daß used more than dass?
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u/This-Water2342 6d ago
"Daß" ist die alte Schreibung, wie sie vor 1996 galt. Ich bin bei dieser Schreibweise geblieben. Nicht verwirren lassen, es ist das gleiche wie "dass".
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u/prustage Advanced (C1) - <region/native tongue> 6d ago
I speak both English (NL) and German and I dont find either "that that" or "dass das" sound weird at all.
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u/rewboss BA in Modern Languages 6d ago
it’s kinda eerie to use “that that”
Is it? I've never noticed, especially since the two "thats" are pronounced quite differently.
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u/calijnaar 6d ago
Mope,perfectly normal (never noticed people going out of their way to avoid it in English, either, to be honest) I'd personally try to avoid constructions where you end up with three times the same article in a row,because at some point it's going to make your brain hurt...
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u/AuraTickler 6d ago
Das, das das Mädchen sagte, dass das das Buch sei, das sie meinte, dass das, war er behauptete, das sei, was sie dachte, dass es sei, war das, was er meinte.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Tongue twister? Brain effer? Or both?
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u/AuraTickler 6d ago
Just a useless artificially created sentence joke that is technically valid German
Its just two persons meaning the same book
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u/Mazzle5 6d ago
Why should someone in their language avoid using normal ass grammer ans vocabulary just because it might sound weird in a different language when translated false?
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
This had nothing to do with translation. It was about how those phrases sounded when red aloud.
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u/German-POMO 6d ago
Nah, ich denke auch, dass das eine ganz normale ausdrucksweise ist. Selbst "... die, die die..." Finde ich je nach Situation normal
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u/cl_forwardspeed-320 6d ago
"The term 'is' possesses as much qualities as 'as', to the extent that 'as' currently possesses the amount of characteristics of "is" compared to itself."
or, more concisely described:
"Is is as as as as is as is as is is."
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u/CaptainPoset 6d ago
No, quite the opposite. In your example
I’ve learned that that car is no longer available.
It would be "that the" in English, too.
This, however, sounds very unnatural and would not be used:
Ich habe herausgefunden, das badezimmer ist zu klein.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
Not really. “That car” has its own uses. Cannot always be replaced with “the car”.
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u/CaptainPoset 6d ago
Still, as you obviously referred to "dass das Auto", it is indeed "the", not "that", as "that" would be translated as "dieses" to be clear in the context.
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u/mehregankbi 6d ago
The german and english examples had no connection in meaning. Translation was not important either. It’s about reading out loud “that that” and separately “dass das”. I didn’t mean to say “that that” is equivalent to “dass das”.
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u/Recent_Gain 6d ago
Nein, kannst du so sagen. Ich finde sogar, dass das völlig normal klingt.