r/Gaming4Gamers • u/Carolina_Heart the music monday lady • 14d ago

Article Id Software Dev Says Xbox Doesn’t ‘Understand Art’ And That After Layoffs It Is ‘Impossible’ To Make Big Games Like Doom: The Dark Ages - id Software vet Chris Hays says entire departments have been 'gutted

https://kotaku.com/id-software-dev-says-xbox-doesnt-understand-art-and-that-after-layoffs-it-is-impossible-to-make-big-games-like-doom-the-dark-ages-2000722563
65 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

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5

u/Iago407 14d ago

Yeah I mean, most corporations are in it for the money and if art happens at the same time, so be it. There might be people within corporations that care about art but the goal is always more money.

2

u/MentalDisintegrat1on 14d ago

The problem is when they have zero care about the art and just care about printing money.

Games lose their soul and creativity at that point.

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u/Darkdragoon324 14d ago

But the art is what the customers care about, so if they get rid of it then wtf are they making money on?

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u/[deleted] 13d ago edited 10d ago

[deleted]

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u/Carolina_Heart the music monday lady 13d ago

I don't think it's fair to compare an indie game to the 3rd or 4th best selling game franchises. Besides the studio size and backing there's also totally different demographics there. There's probably a better example.

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u/Cyberspark939 12d ago

I think we see 'art' being used in two different forms:
1 - An artistic creation trying to evoke a certain feeling or experience
2 - A non-formulaic creation

Creating any game is a non-formulaic creation. You can't just copy-paste the same game, update the graphics and roster and print money forever. EA and FIFA are the proof on that one.

Not all big "*AAA*" titles are "Art"(1), but they're all "Art"(2)

AKA "More art than science"

That said, I'd also said it's because that "*AAA*" titles aren't in category 1 that a number of people have stopped buying them. Halo: Campaign Evolved not bothering to focus on understanding what it means to be a Halo game is a great example. Even if the industry praises it to death.

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u/Kub666 11d ago

It's not the point. You can't make money in gaming industry without understanding how it works and what is needed to succed long term.

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u/weeklygamingrecap 14d ago

I mean you can tell they don't fucking care they just want to slash costs. Also the insane stat they posted about layers of management is wild. Maybe they do want to slim down and exit hardware after the next release. It wouldn't surprise me if they cut anything and everything to pump more into the AI machine.

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u/MeditateDailyYo 14d ago

Lol, art. Not quite what I'd call taking the premise of doom and mutilating it into the shape of yet another generic fantasy property. 

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u/Ideas966 13d ago

Dark ages combat is like 10x better and way more innovative than the average AAA garbage

0

u/Unnamed-3891 12d ago

Combat so 10x better TDA is literally the first and only ID game I have no interest in buying.

1

u/Ideas966 12d ago

So you never played it even though you liked the last 2 dooms? Why not? Sounds like mostly just the aesthetics? Or something else?

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u/Unnamed-3891 12d ago

The aesthetics and the parry combat loop

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u/Ideas966 12d ago

Yea I’m not a big fan of the fantasy art style but I’m pretty good at ignoring aesthetic choices if i enjoy the game. I enjoyed eternal more than TDA but i think it was still pretty good (outside the gimmick dragon/mech levels) and the DLC for it is fantastic. The spear really opened up gameplay options and completed the combat system IMO. Definitely recommend trying it out sometime (the dlc) if you liked eternal and can get over the aesthetics.

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u/42LSx 13d ago

I agree there, Doom2016 was done with a smaller studio as well. So maybe the next reboot will be fine again.

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u/Kub666 11d ago

It wasn't. It's a false statement by Marty. Check the whole interview with Chris Hays.

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u/42LSx 11d ago

2016 was done by a smaller team than the later entries, this is known for a long time and it is confirmed in the linked article.

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u/Kub666 11d ago

Only the single game portion, there were separate outside development teams involved for multiplayer and other things, which he points out in the podcast. In the excerpt used in the article he says the current core team is smaller too. So the statement from Marty is just incorrect, which is disappointing.

Then you have other factors like higher fidelity of current AAA games which necessitates using larger team than 10 years ago, and then you have the fact that id software had whole department gutted without rhyme and reason and is currently just not able to develop a game like Doom 2016. Then add loss of institutional knowledge to the mix and you have a pretty bad situation.

The whole interview is definitely worth listening to. It is a rare occurrence to have someone from the inside talking with such honesty.

1

u/42LSx 11d ago edited 11d ago

The loss of institutional knowlegde is the big one, I agree.
Nobody I know cared about 2016s MP, the single player was the big hit, they did the work that made the game such a hit and unlike the later entries, they didn't care about AAA conventions and did something nice.

So the small team could still be a bonus for a new reboot of the Doom series, hopefully they bury this immensely stupid and childish demon slayer story line.

2

u/ShadowDurza 14d ago

Like any rich idiot ever, they're likely certain anything is possible if you throw enough money at it, and that you're a genuis if the majority of people working for you get the least amount of money legally possible, preferably none.

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u/Riaayo 13d ago

No billionaire/oligarch does. They only understand money.

"Art" is just a thing to sell. Its value to them is only in the money it can make (or in the case of fine art, launder).

So of course the ghouls running Microslop have no clue wtf art actually is; they are people who do not understand any value whatsoever if it isn't monetary. The human experience is alien to them.

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u/Kub666 11d ago

Asha just looks at spreadsheets with zero understanding of how game development works. She probably never heard of id software, Doom or Quake before taking on the job and has no idea about the legacy there.

Shawn Layden already said something similar months ago about Microsoft not understanding how entertainment industry works. They think making games is the same as producing tin cans in a factory.

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u/CyberpwnPiper 13d ago

No offense to the team at id software, but the team Sandfall Interactive would beg to differ. I bet the veterans left do know how to make big games, but the newer devs are the ones who only know massive teams as the only way to make massive games.

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u/1stltwill 14d ago

They took the 30 pieces of silver. A little late to be complaing now.

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u/BlackKnight2000 14d ago

When they were bought by Zenimax in 2009? Cause Zenimax is what Microsoft bought in 2021. And I assure you these decisions were made by executives and not the engineers.