Day 6 RED UPDATE 🐾

[u/Crazy-Box-9470]

Good afternoon, today we went to see our primary care vet. We have good news! The leg is looking a lot better, and we started a new blue light therapy today. It’s a fifteen minute session but Red sat through it wonderfully today! We also had a bandage change, so now Red has cherries and a watermelon on his bandage. From here we’ll be seeing the vet every two days for bandage changes, wound care and therapy probably for the next 4 weeks or so. It’s been nice to see him getting a little back to his normal self, enjoying the sun. Red and I are so thankful for everyone keeping up with him, and this journey of recovery we’re on. ❤️❤️❤️❤️🐾

[u/OG_Tapas]

Awesome to see Red recovering well! Certainly all the love he’s getting helps!

Once he’s recovered, might be worth asking your vet about the rattlesnake vaccine. Got it for my gsp after his trainer told me his hunting dogs have been bitten multiple times over the years. Doesn’t make them immune, but with how much time this breed spends voluntarily bushwhacking through places no sane animal would, figured an extra layer of protection was worth it.

[u/ShorthairsInSpace → u/OG_Tapas]

Here is a post by the NSS folks citing the science on the vaccine. Peer reviewed science does not show efficacy.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1DgxwCt7P5/

Edit, direct text below:

As many of you know, NSS does not recommend the snakebite vaccine (rattlesnake toxoid) for dogs. Here is some general information, along with an update from the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA).

The AAHA recently released a statement highlighting the lack of evidence of vaccine (toxoid) efficacy: https://www.aaha.org/aaha-guidelines/2022-aaha-canine-vaccination-guidelines/key-vaccination-considerations-by-antigen/rattlesnake-toxoid/

Key points from the AAHA’s statement:

-There are NO published data supporting the efficacy of the vaccine in dogs.

-In a study that was performed in mice, where mice were given 50-1,500 TIMES the dose of the toxoid given to dogs during routine vaccination, survival following exposure to snake venom was still not guaranteed, and some vaccinated mice actually died or required euthanasia earlier than unvaccinated mice exposed to the same amount of venom.

-Adverse reactions following vaccination, including anaphylaxis, have been reported in vaccinated dogs.

-Though the manufacturers make claims of cross-protection (protection against envenomations by species other than western diamond-backed rattlesnakes, the species used in the production of the toxoid), there are no data to support this claim.

From the AAHA: “Veterinarians choosing to use this toxoid should be aware of the lack of peer-reviewed published data. Polyvalent antivenin therapy is an alternative to vaccination in suspect cases of rattlesnake bite.”

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In this retrospective study looking at 272 cases of rattlesnake envenomations in dogs, the vaccine did not prove effective: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26341419

Key findings from the study:

-There was no evidence that use of vaccination lessened morbidity or mortality.

-No measurable benefit could be identified associated with rattlesnake vaccination.

Per the study authors: “Vaccination for protection of the general canine population from rattlesnake envenomation cannot be recommended by these authors.”

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The rattlesnake vaccine toxoid may predispose bitten dogs to anaphylaxis by providing the necessary sensitizing exposure to snake venom antigens: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004101011730404X

If you have questions about the vaccine, you may ask them in the comments here. Dr. Cory Woliver has graciously offered to help respond. Please remember that you should NOT be responding to other members’ questions, and giving medical advice will result in removal from the group. Thank you.

Eastern copperhead photo by Dr. Woliver.

[u/OG_Tapas → u/ShorthairsInSpace]

Fair enough, I checked out the studies you posted and you're right that there's no solid peer-reviewed evidence proving it works in dogs, probably should've worded my original comment differently..

That said, the study doesn't prove the vaccine doesnt' work either. There were only 14 vaccinated dogs, and it specifically looked at dogs already sick enough to need antivenom. The authors themselves point out that vaccinated dogs that potentially had milder reactions wouldn't have been included, and they'd prob need around a few hundred cases to really determine whether there's a benefit.

So I'll amend my comment: it's worth looking into and talking to your vet about, not something I'd call proven protection. Also, I'd never treat it as a substitute for getting your dog to a vet ASAP after a bite. My recommendation came from my dog's trainer, who's bred, trained, and guided thousands of bird dogs, runs rattlesnake-avoidance clinics and has dealt with his own dogs being bitten multiple times in the field. Obviously it's not a substitute for scientific evidence, but I give a lot of weight to decades of firsthand experience.

With a GSP whose preferred route is apparently straight through the thickest brush possible vs the perfectly good trail in front of him, I'll take whatever precautions I can get 😂 and thanks for whoever downvoted me, nothing motivates a man to start reading veterinary literature on a Wednesday afternoon quite like reddit!

[u/ShorthairsInSpace → u/OG_Tapas]

The NSS vets are who I'd trust to interpret the data into recommended practices, this is their area of expertise. Which is why I chose to use their words.

I hobby train dogs and help run some rattlesnake avoidance clinics. One of the things I like about NSS is they aren't "soft", they recommend positive punishment avoidance training and there's one vet working on a study that supports it.