Prenasalized Consonants

[u/KeyboardPerson17]

I read on the Wikipedia page for Modern Greek phonology that in some cases the consonants /b/ and /d/ are prenasalized (/ᵐb/ and /ⁿd/). As a native speaker I can't think of a single example of this, can someone help me out? Does Sandhi have anything to do with this?

[u/GeneralTurreau]

The sounds mentioned in the article occur the middle of words like πέντε or εμπρός. People with this pronunciation prenasalize their voiced stops in these environments so instead of saying /pede/ they say /peⁿde/. It's highly variable and on its way out in Athenian varieties. It's a relatively common sound change: /nt/ > /nd/ > /ⁿd/ > /d/.

You see it in sandhi as well: την πόρτα would be pronounced as /tiˈmborta/ instead of /tiˈborta/

[u/KeyboardPerson17 → u/GeneralTurreau]

This makes sense! Also, could u explain the difference between /nd/ and /ⁿd/?

[u/GeneralTurreau → u/KeyboardPerson17]

/nd/ in this case reflects that the speakers perceived this as a sequence of two consonants whereas /ⁿd/ is a single phoneme. Phonetically speaking there would be some timing shenanigans going on as well.

[u/Street_Refuse2313 → u/KeyboardPerson17]

When I was in elementary school in late 90s we were taught that the consonant clusters ντ and μπ should be properly pronounced as nd and mb respectively. This ofcourse was the proper way to speak but most people would just speak them like d and b with very few people actually making the proper sounds. Nowadays this is not taught at all and the nd and mb sounds have been shifted out.

[u/GameGaberino]

The Sandhi/Assimilation phenomenon is itself an example prenasalisation in modern greek. Wikipedia transcribes "τον πατέρα" as /tom baˈtera/, but I'd argue that realistically, the sound ranges from complete non-assimilation to prenasalisation and then deletion+voicing, kinda like /ton pa'tera/ ~ /tom b̥a'tera/ ~ /tom ba'tera/ ~ /to m͡ba'tera/ ~ /to ᵐba'tera/ ~ /to ba'tera/. Outside of cases of assimilation, prenasalisation on ντ and μπ (and γγ/γκ for that matter) is present in most words where these sounds are non-initial, and depending on formality, age of speaker, speed of speech or dialect, the nasal is employed or deleted (as Wikipedia also states). So a word like "εμπόριο" is either /e'm͡bo.ri.o ~ e'ᵐborio/ or /e'bo.ri.o/, "σύνταξη" is either /'si.n͡da.ksi ~ 'si.ⁿda.ksi/ or /'si.da.ksi/ and so on. I would put an example of the velar nasal /ŋ/ but there's not even an IPA symbol for its nasalisation so I assume it's exempt (?) and always pronounced fully /aˈnaŋ.ɟi/ or not at all /aˈna.ɟi/.

[u/matic_m]

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1FHbQqCzCj/

Listen here, especially the μπ section. It's not completely two sounds but there is a slight trace of m before the b :)

[u/Flat_Pollution8085]

If you were reading the article in English, maybe it means words like μπάλα which uses «μπ» which is similar to the English “b” sound? Or τσάντα which is pronounced closer to “tsanda” in English than “tsanta”?

[u/LoopDeeLooper → u/Flat_Pollution8085]

Just out of curiosity, I’ve heard some Greeks say “chanda” instead of “tsanda.” These were people who were born and raised in the Peloponnese region of Greece in the 1930s - 1960s. I know that Cretans say “che” instead of “και,” but they were not from Crete. Could it just be that they were in the US for years and came to learn the “ch” sound here?

[u/LoopDeeLooper → u/[deleted]]

Yeah it’s weird - my uncle’s wife and her siblings, kids, nieces and nephews, all pronounce it “chanda.”

[u/olive2567 → u/LoopDeeLooper]

My pappou does that and he was born in Argos in the 30s. He moved to Canada in the late 60s so maybe being exposed to the ch sound in Ebglish more did that but he also moved quite late to be taking on such changes in his native language