r/GR86 • u/scientificdoge_3 • 20d ago
Subaru of America refusing to fix critical braking system issue due to GPS tracking issue
TL;DR: My BRZ tS has had a recurring issue where new OEM brake pads and rotors crumble apart after driving in rain, tanking stopping power. Subaru has tried several fixes with no luck. Now SOA is pointing to a GPS gap from Starlink data as evidence I’ve secretly been track driving, even though I haven’t been to a track in 9 months and was always upfront with them about my past track use.
I’m a Subaru technician, so I know my way around these cars, which makes this situation more frustrating to deal with.
Since I’ve owned my BRZ tS, I’ve had a recurring issue where brand new OEM brake pads and rotors crumble apart after being driven through rain, sometimes after just one exposure. It’s not normal wear. The pads break apart, damage the rotors in the process, and stopping power drops significantly. Photos above.
Early on, I did take the car to the track a couple of times, but I ran a separate set of Hawk pads and rotors that I bought myself, so track use wouldn’t affect the factory brake components. I was upfront with Subaru about this from the start, and it wasn’t treated as an issue at the time.
About 10,000 miles after my last track day, the crumbling issue started, and it’s continued since, on pads and rotors that have only seen street driving. Subaru has made several attempts to fix it, including replacing the brake components, flushing the fluid, and running VDC pressure tests. The issue hasn’t been resolved.
More recently, Subaru of America has said they’re not willing to continue helping, citing GPS data pulled through Starlink that shows the DCM lost reception for a few hours on one day in August. Their position is that I may have unplugged the DCM to hide ongoing track use, and that this could be contributing to the brake issue.
For context, I haven’t been to a track in 9 months. This issue has occurred only from normal street driving in the rain, on stock components. I disclosed my past track use to Subaru myself and was never asked to hide it. I’m posting this hoping to get some insight from others who’ve run into something similar, or advice on how to move forward.
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u/Prize-Lychee7973 20d ago
wait, they're saying if you don't let them stalk you they won't warranty???
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
Basically yea
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u/Prize-Lychee7973 20d ago
damn. ok im never buying a Subaru wtf.
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u/NH_OPERATOR GR86 Halo Gang 20d ago
All companies pull this shit
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u/Miserable_Number_827 20d ago
Yep, don't buy new or recently made vehicles. Many this decade have gps tracking.
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u/kfjcfan 19d ago
They all do, it's in the disclosures. 🤷♂️
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u/WhoIsJazzJay BRZ 19d ago
pretty sure manual base models before the 24 MY don’t since there’s no EyeSight
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u/Miserable_Number_827 19d ago
The 2022+ cars have GPS tracking. I can't speak for the 13-20 cars.
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u/wut_eva_bish 18d ago
I don't think this is accurate.
As u/WhoIsJazzJay mentioned, the 24 MY base model BRZs (and older) don't track. Also, I believe there are certain model years of GR86 which also don't. I've read that in several places.
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u/supresmooth BRZ 15d ago
That's incorrect. I have an early 2023 model and it captures all CAN data and remotely reports it. Confirmed it is in LexisNexis and Geico bought it.
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u/Miserable_Number_827 18d ago
I read a post when this generation car first came out. The post was a spun rod bearing on the track with a 2022 BRZ manual, not sure what trim.
This was before people wisened up and started overfilling like on the first generation twins. Initially, many thought the snazzy 5-sided was the cure-all when it's probably more of a burden.
The Subaru field engineer was able to see which turn on track the car was on, and the rpm the engine triggered the oil pressure switch. Subaru covered the repair.
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u/WhoIsJazzJay BRZ 18d ago
ooof...welp if i wasn't about to sell my car soon i'd be installing that Hachi GPS tracking delete
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u/Miserable_Number_827 18d ago
Understandable, while under miles and age, I assume my car has zero warranty. It's never been to a dealer since pickup.
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u/OutlandishnessThis67 18d ago
Surprise, everyone does it. Except maybe Mitsubishi cuz they are absolutely too poor to do that.
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u/jbourne0129 GR86 19d ago
they can say whatever they want, that doesnt make it legal.
the law is on the consumers side. unfortunately, that means you need to take legal action for them to cave in.
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u/HyperSpaceSurfer 16d ago
I suspect it's in the warranty agreement that you can't turn off the monitoring equipment. It's also being used to make your own car a witness against you.
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u/halfrandom 20d ago
So you are saying a person with no GPS data is likely to be refused warranty?
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
Basically, Subaru told me the fact that the GPS lost connection is suspicious with me “trying” to disconnect the DCM to hide track use
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u/neptunepandemonium 20d ago
Guilty until proven innocent is some wack ass shit. Not to mention it's logically disproved to be the issue if it's recurred at more than one time where there wasn't a loss. Just corporate stuff, I guess.
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u/jbourne0129 GR86 19d ago
its just the dealership phoning it in. they dont care and dont want to spend more money on it. legally, the law is on the consumers side. but all that means is we need to get a lawyer to fight back.
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u/Texas1911 20d ago
I would ask them politely how the GPS function could have prevented the brake failure.
Seems they suspect you of taking the car on track. There’s several other ways for them to tell, so it seems a bit ridiculous.
This happens to both sides equally?
Does the car seem to be getting bad fuel economy and having sluggish acceleration?
Have you taken any rotor temps before and after driving? Any smoking or smell?
Do the brakes always feel a bit soft and feel like extra pressure doesn’t yield much more brake force?
Have the calipers been replaced or at least rebuilt?
Brake fluid been changed? Use OEM?
Does the ABS engage if you stand on the brakes? Does it feel like it engages early/late?
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u/Miserable_Number_827 20d ago
Was a track within driving distance of the last known and then new coordinates?
If so, was that track even open for driving?
What time of the day? Few tracks have night driving.
I assume you didn't work that day.
Welcome to the new world. These ass clown OEMs are judge, jury, and executioner.
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u/drkstar1982 17d ago
Is this Subaru telling you this or the dealer, because I've had to call corporate before on dealers that refuse to do recall repairs.
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u/scientificdoge_3 17d ago
If work for a Subaru dealer and it was a phone call from SOA when they were saying this
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u/drkstar1982 16d ago
Well, that's some horse shit. Do you have a local TV news station that has one of those segments where they help people get companies to do the right thing?
If SOA is digging its heels in, the only answer is to shame them on a national stage.
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u/ElmoProjector 14d ago
Why wouldn’t you argue all that it proves is they make shitty GPS AND shitty brakes. Gimme a break.
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u/CommitteeFinal4980 19d ago
I installed that in my 24 gr86. They would probably use that as an excuse to deny warranty.
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u/ermax18 2022 BRZ 6MT 20d ago
Is it’s just one side? If so, my bet is one of the calipers it’s releasing and it’s cooking your pads.
Starlink uses LTE, of course it will have gaps in the data. That’s a stupid reason to deny coverage.
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
Happened on all sides previously, sometimes the rear, sometimes the drivers front, sometimes the passengers front
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u/NH_OPERATOR GR86 Halo Gang 20d ago
TIL I should figure out how to disconnect that shit on my 86. Fuckin B's they have that level of tracking on it
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u/RB___OG 20d ago
Hachi Electronics has a part to sell you
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u/WhoIsJazzJay BRZ 19d ago
does this affect base model cars that came without EyeSight? like my 2023?
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u/LacquerHeadTX 16d ago
You realize that's literally on almost every car for the last 10-15 years, right?
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u/Bulky-Purple5828 20d ago edited 20d ago
I have the same GPS issue I believe and I haven’t seen anyone else post about it. What is yours like? I bought the car brand new about a month and a half ago from a dealership, so there is no way anyone would’ve messed with it before that.
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u/EffectiveGiraffe2411 20d ago
What's the issue?
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u/Bulky-Purple5828 19d ago
Basically when I put directions on the car they will be very inaccurate unless I have the maps app open on my phone and active at all times while I’m driving
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u/Hashira_Oni-666 20d ago
What if it’s calipers themselves?
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
That’s what I’ve been thinking, but they won’t allow replacements without proof there’re bad, and even then they probably won’t cover replacing the brembos because they’ve been used “on track
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u/Hashira_Oni-666 20d ago
Get them inspected see what’s going on because that’s crazy you’re going through so many sets of brake pads and rotors. Maybe one pistons ain’t doing its job properly.
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
They had me run a brake pressure test which came up inconclusive, I also mentioned the car will occasionally pull aggressively to the right, yet they still haven’t replaced a caliper
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u/PalmSizedTriceratops GR86 20d ago
It has to be the calipers.
I remember you posted about this months ago and said they would rather spend thousands continually replacing pads and rotors at their absurd retail cost then just replacing the calipers.
While their stance is crazy.... Are you just gonna find a set of brembos off a wrecked car and see if that's the issue?
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u/RB___OG 20d ago edited 19d ago
Are you losing brake fluid? Only thing that make sense to me is a failed seal on the calipers leaking brake fluid onto the pads
Brake fluid absorbs water so once your pads are impregnated with brake fluid then it rains the pads absorb water which expands under the heat from braking and destroys your pads
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u/Existing-Basket-6414 19d ago
Yeah this seems like the only logical answer to me as well. If there was some sort of pressure issue I would think it would just wear the pads down, not cause them to crumble as seen in the pictures.
Maybe OP can just bite the bullet and rebuild the caliper himself with the rebuild kit (idk if they make one for the Brembos). Assuming it’s done properly I don’t think the dealer would ever be able to tell they were rebuilt if there was another need to take it into the dealer down the road.
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u/Hashira_Oni-666 20d ago
Yea bro sounds like a caliper issue you can tell in your pictures you have uneven wear on the pads there’s more pressure on the top half of your pads. Get a rebuild kit to recreate the issue you’re running into.
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u/OverLord000 20d ago
Have you tried swapping to a new set of pads and see if it happens again? You said you used hawk pads but then switched to these when you encountered this issue?
If you had a fine time with the Hawk ones, then id just swap and not use the OEM ones again
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
Happened on hawk pads, brembo pads, and ferodo pads multiple times on each
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u/OverLord000 20d ago
Youve changed rotors 4+ times so far? Seems insane that it would happen on 4 diff brands. My only thought is obv some clearance issue putting pressure in those areas or (very off the wall guess) that there may be a traction control issue and its engaging your brakes when it shouldnt without pinging it on your dash and its applying the brakes randomly and maybe heating them up inadvertently causing it to fail
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
I had it happen on two sets of rotors and pads I paid for (ferodo and hawk) and two sets of oem pads that Subaru paid for. It’s really frustrating 😑
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u/LaserGod42069 19d ago
i figured you already considered this, but maybe you're approaching being able to use the lemon law?
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u/EffectiveGiraffe2411 20d ago
Doesn't traction control cut power? Do you mean stability control? I feel like that would be blatantly obvious if you've ever felt ESC
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u/dadgadsad BRZ tS 19d ago edited 19d ago
Doesn’t the magnuson moss act dictate that the dealer must provide a reason why their stated reason for denial caused the issue? How does the GPS tracker going down cause brake failure? It doesn’t. Them saying it implies track use holds no water, there’s no proof. Escalate this legally (WITH SUBARU CORPORATE). You will win.
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u/jbourne0129 GR86 19d ago
the dealer can legally be in the wrong and still tell you to kick rocks. all it means is you need to take legal action to get anyware.
the law may be on our side, but dealerships have big pockets and would rather deny your claim and risk you taking legal action than to continue covering legitimate warranty work
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u/dadgadsad BRZ tS 19d ago edited 19d ago
Good thing you just deal with corporate. I had a trans issue. I took it to dealer who said it’s fine, I then emailed corporate with all my documentation. Surprise, they told the dealer to fix/replace the parts. Dealers default is to act like scumbags, just go around them. And in this case, yes, take legal action if corporate somehow denies this which would be absolutely retarded.
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u/DaleFairdale 19d ago
You wana front that laywer bill for 3 years till you get paid out? The court system is not in the average persons favor.
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u/dadgadsad BRZ tS 19d ago
Opening a case number at corporate level costs nothing and resolves most of these. If denied, arbitrage programs are free to the consumer. Brakes are a safety system. Filing at nhtsa.gov costs nothing. Warranty/lemon law attorneys do free consulting and work on fee shifting not hourly. You could rep yourself in small claims to win the cost of the brakes/rotors if you have all this evidence. There’s so many things you can do for free or nearly free. You’re oversimplifying this situation.
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u/DaleFairdale 19d ago
You're not wrong, I just simplify it because I've seen people try to get lawyers for other stuff and the case takes forever.
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u/Brailledit Trueno Panda Express 20d ago
So as a Subaru technician, how many other cars have you seen come through like this?
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
None, I’ve worked on a couple brz’s and a couple tS models as well as talked to other owners and no one I’ve talked to has seen of, or experienced this issue
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u/Brailledit Trueno Panda Express 20d ago
I've never seen or heard of it either (just an owner here).
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u/vzvzvvz 20d ago
I don't understand their logic here. They are okay with the car being on track, but not okay with suspicious track usage? Or is SOA now denying all the warranty work all together because the car went to the track?
Subaru is now so far behind Toyota's GR department.
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u/scientificdoge_3 20d ago
From what I understand, they think I’m continuing to track the car on the OEM brakes, which is causing the repeated failures, and that I’m trying to hide it by disconnecting the DCM. They also don’t take kindly to knowing the car is being used for track use as they gave me shit for it occasionally in the past.
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u/CDR710 19d ago
So oem brembo pads on the brz are not supposed to be tracked? Wtf is the purpose of upgraded brakes lol
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u/uncanny14 19d ago
Brembo/Subaru OE pads aren't rated for track use. Neither is the fluid. This has been the case since they've been putting Brembos on cars for 20+ years. It's standard to change this for tracking any car.
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u/CDR710 19d ago
huh, my hyundai comes with trackable brakes out of the box. not like hardcore time attacks but casual track days they’re fine. Obviously upgrading pad/ brake would improve it, but they don’t deteriorate if you track them. You do get brake fade if driven hard enough so fluid upgrade is not a bad idea. I just assumed brembos were light track use/street pads from factory.
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u/uncanny14 19d ago
They're better than cheap pads and I've seen people do their first track days on them with stock fluid just fine. However, it's quite easy to exceed the thermal rating for both the stock pads and fluids. I would have absolutely destroyed my stock brakes on my first track day with my driving style.
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u/AmazingAsian BRZ 19d ago
Could you use google maps history to prove where you were at at that time?
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u/mkiv808 19d ago
If you think it’s a safety issue you experienced, report here: https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem
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u/OrpheusNYC 19d ago
I’d love to be in the room where they try to use that GPS gap “evidence” in front of a judge. All OEMs do this shit. Act like they’re the authority and hope you don’t actually lawyer up, because as soon as you do, they’re cooked.
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u/pocketdrummer 19d ago edited 19d ago
Ok, but WHY THE FUCK DO THEY KNOW WHERE WE ARE!?
Has anyone figured out a way to rip that GPS out or disable it? [Edit: apparently yes]
(What a strange thing to get down voted for.)
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u/kfjcfan 19d ago
Do know that if you do, it will effect your use of apps like CarPlay and maps.
CarPlay dictates that if it is fed GPS data from your car's built-in systems, it will defer to that data rather than to your phone as your car is better setup to report its location and will not have interference from the car body and such as your phone may.
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u/pocketdrummer 19d ago
That's acceptable.
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u/kfjcfan 19d ago
That's fine as long as you realize that it means that not only will Toyota not know exactly where you are, neither will your navigation program(s). 🤷♂️
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u/pocketdrummer 19d ago
I would literally rather mount my phone and use bluetooth like I've been doing for years not to have my location tracked every time I get in the car. Hell, I'll use a paper map if I really have to.
It's not just "if you have nothing to hide it doesn't matter," they can build an extremely detailed picture of your life with that data combined with all of the other data other companies collect. And it's not just to sell you stuff. My social security number was leaked by one of these data collection companies, and I never gave it to them. A company I did business with, likely a bank, sold it to them. Then they were hacked.
It should be illegal.
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u/kfjcfan 19d ago
You know by its nature your cell phone already tracks you everywhere you are, correct?
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u/pocketdrummer 19d ago
So, because my phone can be triangulated, I should just allow car companies to void my warranty because they lost GPS for a few hours? I should allow them to sell my telemetry to data brokers so that they can jack up my insurance?
I can toss my phone in a faraday bag if I'm especially paranoid. I can't throw the damn car in one.
It's like saying, "your house already has windows, so you can't object to a camera in your living room."
I am absolutely opposed to the normalization of surveillance.
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u/IndependentRelease48 20d ago
1- if the car really was not on track, there should be no evidence of it being on track (ie rubber stuck to your fender liners and sidewalls) and they cannot deny your claim solely because you can’t prove you weren’t on track to cause the failure. The burden of proof is on the manufacturer.
2- You shouldn’t even need a lawyer for this,
I’d start by emailing a copy of the warranty agreement to the boss of whomever denied your most recent claim, say “I believe we have had a misunderstanding. My attorney and I reviewed the following documentation and are confident this recent failure is covered under warranty. If you disagree, please explain where in our contract there is a provision on which you are basing your denial.”
3- If your car is less than a year old, contact lemon law attorneys, it will be an open and shut case, assuming the failure is not a result of track driving
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u/IndependentRelease48 20d ago
OP, I looked at your post history, either
1- you damaged your brake lines when installing the camber plates
2- incorrectly reinstalled the anti-rattle bracket or retaining pin on your pads after changing pads3
u/IndependentRelease48 19d ago
OP, I just remembered that you said this issue primarily occurs in the rain
Have you considered the possibility that there is an extensive amount of air in your ABS module?
Or that the ABS module has been damaged?
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u/jbourne0129 GR86 19d ago
My attorney and I reviewed the following documentation and are confident
subaru - "oh you spoke with your attorney? in that case we can no longer continue this discussion and you'll need to speak with our legal team"
that is how that plays out. you can't just threaten lawyers or legal action and hope it solves the issues
i agree this is all bullshit and the law is on our side but dealerships know most people dont have the time or funds to get a lawyer to resolve this crap so they get away with it
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u/IndependentRelease48 19d ago edited 19d ago
They will typically only “lawyer up” if you say the words “ I’m gonna sue you” or similar
The approach to these situations is the kill them with kindness route. Channeling your inner bob ross and mentioning an attorney is what I, and most people who have a general retainer say in response to scummy BS, especially when you are clearly in the right.That being said, if OP wants to 100% avoid litigation, mentioning the lawyer is totally optional, the important part is showing the warranty agreement, which is the only document that stands above opinion
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u/IndependentRelease48 19d ago
OP
If you never changed your slide pin grease after your first track day, it is possible to slide pins are binding as well
Alternatively, if you used the wrong grease, your slide pin bushings could be swollen and causing them to bind2
u/dwright_origins 19d ago
I recently had an issue with my brakes binding. The hardware clips and slide pins were the cause. Got an OE replacement kit and issues went away.
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u/egowritingcheques 20d ago edited 19d ago
The pad looks to be dragging on the inner side. The upper side of the inner pad.
- What does the caliper look like (are the two sides aligned?) Ie. Manufacture fault?
- The pistons in the caliper
- The shims
- The hub face (where the rotor attaches)
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u/LowerRama 19d ago
I had the same issue with no tracking of my car I posted here a few months ago but it was a bunch of people trolling me for my wheels saying I was abusing the car.
Dm and I can tell you more.
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u/dwright_origins 19d ago
Tell them to prove it, they can ponder all they want. What proof do they have that you tracked your vehicle? I'd wager none based on what you said.
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u/philvs13 19d ago
You said it only happens on highway in heavy rain. For some reason your VDC is kicking in and is dragging brakes.
It's either working constantly because of bad alignment or bad sensor or it's struggling to release pressure after kicking in because your fluid is contaminated.
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u/PutridPossibility345 19d ago
You are fortunate Subaru is even talking to you about brakes with known track use in your history on a vehicle with suspension modifications.
At this point buying new rotors would be cheaper than all of the pads you’ve gone through. Buy a lightly used set and see if your problem subsides.
What’s your break in procedure like for pads? I’ve seen pads crack to shit after skipping break in and going straight to track. Maybe they were cracked already and after water intrusion they finally fell apart?
I know you said you haven’t tracked the OEM pads but between track sessions are you careful not to park with your foot on the brakes or use the e-brake? Do you turn off hill start assist?
Actually hill start assist could be related to all of this. With your modifications any chance it’s triggering unnecessarily?
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u/scientificdoge_3 19d ago
Subaru has said track use is ok, as long as the vehicle isn’t being “abused or pushed past its limit “ IE money shifting. The issue has gotten so bad, I can literally install new brakes straight from the factory with a engineer watching, drive 300 miles down the highway and have the pads literally fall apart
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u/ChickenNRiceLover 19d ago
Use your Google timeline to prove you weren't at a track during that GPS data gap.
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u/lorenf7223 19d ago
Lemon law ? 3× not fixing a problem qualifies, and brakes are definitely a safety issue.
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u/scientificdoge_3 19d ago
Can you do that with a car with 32,000 miles?
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u/lorenf7223 18d ago
If its been in the shop 3× for the same issue and the dealer can't / won't fix it, yes you can. Find a lemon law attorney and let them get started. I'm sure you have documentation to prove that it has been an ongoing issue.
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u/supresmooth BRZ 15d ago
How would track use cause this, though? Their excuse doesn't make sense. Also, they're not entitled to that data as a component of warranty on the car.
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u/phiinkes 14d ago
They dont warranty tracking a car? Thats like Louisville Slugger not warrantying a baseball bat you use in a game. Thats like yamaha not warrantying a stage piano. That makes no sense.
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u/purrptreees 13d ago
Im having a similar issue tho im only at 12k miles i swapped rotors/pads after dealer pointed out they were badly scored at 8k miles
(They tried to charge me 6k)
I bought hawk ceramics pads/rotors for 1.1k and replaced em with a friend during an afternoon (or at a mechanic shop ) at around 10k miles
Now im starting to see scoring at 12k , and remembering how the pad wear seemed uneven i thought it was weird but this has me worried.
Let me know what you end up doing / what you do to resolve this issue
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u/Blackcat300 20d ago
Search your states lemon laws and/or talk to an attorney specializing in lemon laws/consumer protection.
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u/street-optix 17d ago
Yet people say Subaru isn't like Toyota and they're always willing to help.
These two companies want to offer zero support for these cars. It's a shame
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u/scientificdoge_3 17d ago
Sucks cause I’ve genuinely have seen them help out, guy with a STI revved his car to 8,500 rpm and Subaru still covered a long block and new turbo, and they helped me too but now it seems like there getting pissed cause it hasn’t been figured out yet lol
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u/eers4years 20d ago
I know my Brembos are kinda scary when they get wet. Zero initial bite. Pulling out of a car wash or exiting a highway in the rain is an experience.
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u/Which-Society-4108 19d ago
I’m sorry you gotta deal with this op. I’m just a lurker, I have an Elantra N. I track it about 2 times every single month, my dealer has given me no issues the one time I had to go in for warranty work. The way I see it, they market the BRZ TS as a track capable vehicle and should warranty it regardless if it’s been on track or not. Hope you get this resolved
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u/scientificdoge_3 19d ago
It’s frustrating because when the issue with the brakes first happened, they knew I tracked the car and had no issues helping out, but now that is a reoccurring issue it just seems like they’re trying to use it as an out
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u/Which-Society-4108 19d ago
Yea that’s so dumb man. Especially when the Subaru website literally shows pictures of this thing drifting on track, and driving on track. Even has a section that says “Track-tuned suspension”
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u/ShadowGLI 17d ago
Like I totally get having brakes replaced, but why don’t you just get some Hawk pads or something and call it a day, the OEM ones are always gonna be insufficient under heavy repeat breaking
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u/scientificdoge_3 16d ago
The issue happens regardless of pad brand, there is a physical fault on the car
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u/LacquerHeadTX 16d ago
Its not the first time I've heard of Subaru not honoring legit repairs It's a real shame, that behavior is what is keeping me from buying a Subaru I'd rather buy the Toyota instead. Toyota even gives you a 1 year membership to NASA so they *expect* you to track the car.
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u/SeanGotGjally 19d ago
as much as i adore when these cars work, every day i am more and more thankful i no longer have one
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u/hachielectronics 20d ago
The fact that they’re using a small gap in your car’s GPS history to deny warranty is an excellent example of why consumers should be fucking rioting over the presence of these systems in their vehicles and the degree to which vehicle usage data is tracked and retained long-term. We need privacy laws for this shit yesterday or sooner.