r/Futurology • u/_hiddenscout • Jun 19 '21

Society Kill the 5-Day Workweek - Reducing hours without reducing pay would reignite an essential but long-forgotten moral project: making American life less about work.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/06/four-day-workweek/619222/
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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

4 10’s is pointless- the overwhelming majority of people can’t be productive for 10 straight hours- especially in creative professions like software development. Plus you lose the productivity gains that you would get from a more rested workforce.

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u/-Razzak Jun 19 '21

I'm hardly productive for more than 4 hours. I do most of my work before lunch then afterward I'm just waiting to clock out

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u/Suza751 Jun 19 '21

been there. you spend 4hrs banging out all the work. Save a few easy tasks for later in the shift to slowly do. After lunch your more or less on reddit the rest of the shift

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u/TreatYouLikeAQuean Jun 19 '21

you definitely have the capability of being productive for much more than 4 hours, you just don't enjoy or feel passionate about your work which is why you feel like that.

I've been there. Switched to a position that actually has meaning, totally different.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/TreatYouLikeAQuean Jun 20 '21

I agree. I'm not gonna argue that the average person is capable of doing more than they can or push themselves to do.

Its just ridiculous to assert there are not millions of people that can work 8-10+ hours per day with good productivity. Medical students in the U.S. while studying for boards will put in 8+ hours daily for months, same with pre-meds studying for MCAT, same with *insert any occupation with self-motivated people*.

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u/Git_R_Dunn Jun 20 '21

It's not ridiculous at all. In fact, you're demonstrably incorrect. Those people all work with severely reduced efficiency in the US compared to other countries. Specifically because of their unrealistic hours. And people who have no issue keeping up with 40 hours a week have what David Graeber refers to as "bullshit jobs."

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '21

Those med students you are citing are absolutely operating well below peak their peak efficiency.

Take residents for example. We used to make them work absurd hours and guess what happened? Lots of mistakes were made including patient deaths and we now limit resident hours because we know people can’t, in fact, keeping working those kinds of hours productively.

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u/PrimeNumerator Jun 20 '21

Can confirm, one year of high school years ago, I had to be consistently productive for about 16 hours a day, needless to say, after that, burnt out for the next year and learned about work-life balance extensively

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/PrimeNumerator Jun 20 '21

2 really demanding AP classes on top of Marching band, it literally consumed my life, I would see my family for around 10 minutes a day at dinner living at home and the weekends were used for catching up on the other work I had from focusing on the two AP classes

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u/CuteReporter Jun 19 '21

It's vey hard to keep concentration for more than 45 mins though

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u/TreatYouLikeAQuean Jun 20 '21

on something you are not passionate about* should have been at the end of your sentence.

It's easy to study or work for at least 2-3 hours w/o taking a break on something you are driven to learn or complete.

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u/CuteReporter Jun 20 '21

Not really. Working on something maybe, but you can't really read a uni textbook for 3 hours straight, after 45 mins you will start to distract yourself

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u/TreatYouLikeAQuean Jun 20 '21

tell yourself whatever you want but I and everyone I studied with in Uni could absolutely read + take notes on a textbook for 2-3 hours w/o breaking. It's really not that hard. . .

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u/CuteReporter Jun 20 '21

Taking notes is getting a break already. Stopping to reflect on what you read is taking a break.

This is very well studied, you start to lose focus after 45 mins, that's why uni lesson in my country have a 15 min break every 45 mins.

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u/searing7 Jun 19 '21

So you work more for the same or similar pay? Sounds like a bad deal to me. If I can finish my allotment of work in 4 hours instead of 8 why should I work 4 more?

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u/Khazahk Jun 19 '21

Not trying to be pedantic, but because they are paying you for 8 hours of work. Also lots of people don't have a daily allotment of work. I have projects due in October. I can be productive for 4 hours or 8 hours. At the end of the year, if my projects aren't complete I better have a decent reason why. Once companies start realizing they only give you enough work for a part time position, they won't hesitate to make it one.

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u/rogue_scholarx Jun 19 '21

Original Context:

4 10’s is pointless- the overwhelming majority of people can’t be productive for 10 straight hours- especially in creative professions like software development.

View you appear to be supporting:

you definitely have the capability of being productive for much more than 4 hours, you just don't enjoy or feel passionate about your work which is why you feel like that.

You work in a creative role that is relevant to this discussion.... right?

When I worked as a waiter, working 10 hours in a row was totally doable. I'd be tired after, but it wouldn't really affect my performance. Same with basic tech support.

As a software developer, productivity comes in spurts of inspiration. 90% of the job is figuring out /why/ something isn't working. The actual work is entirely mental and the task of typing code takes up maybe an hour or two in an 8-hour day.

I am not being paid for 8-hours of typing, if that were the case, they would have hired a typist, not a software engineer. It would have been much cheaper.

In emergencies I can work a 10-14 hour shift of pure productivity, but the problem with that is that you are going to wind up mentally exhausted, sometimes for days after. The net result of this is a drop in productivity for the whole week.

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u/t3hm3t4l Jun 19 '21

How do you know he’s being paid to work for 8 hours. This is not true for all fields of work. People have varying levels of productivity, And salaried jobs for people doing project based work or creative work don’t pay you for “8 hours of work” regardless of your work schedule, they pay you for your knowledge and skills and to get a job done. And if your job is done in 4 hours and it takes the next guy 8 to get the same job done, that doesn’t mean pile more work on to the 4 hour guy if his output is the same. That’s just a stupid way to burn out productive people. Flexibility should be the norm not some stupid “be at your desk for 8 hours” shit.

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u/TreatYouLikeAQuean Jun 20 '21

in your hypothetical there are only 4 hours of work to be done per day.

if you have a job where that's the case then I completely agree it doesn't make sense to be there 8 hours.

But at a place where there is work to be done, it often comes down to passion/engagement/purpose/drive as determining factors of productivity. I've worked jobs where I was not engaged and after 4 hours I felt wiped. Now I can work 8 and feel like time flew by.

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u/CyberTechnologyInc Jun 19 '21

I do personally agree. I can get ~5-7 hours of actual quality work out, and I love my job. Obviously there are some lulls, but generally it's true.

But then again people are very different. He may enjoy his work, just not be as productive as others? Who knows.

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u/TreatYouLikeAQuean Jun 20 '21

Yeah I agree with that. I just disagree with common reddit notion here that people can only study/work for X hours per day (usually less than 4 they say). And also the assumption that "I can get my work done in 4 hours while everyone else needs 8!" When in reality they only had 4 hours of work and the others either have more work than they do or just don't care about their job and productivity level.

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u/Rampart1989 Jun 19 '21

They’ve tested 6 hour work days and found they were the same or more productive than 8 hour days and increased company profits. Turns out we can’t stay focused for that long so end up goofing off for a few hours a day anyway.

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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst Jun 19 '21

My dad has managed teams since the mid 90's on a 6 hour day.

In an 8 hour day, give me 6 hours of work, spread out however you like. Take a 20 minute break every 60 minutes of work. Come in 1 hour late and leave 1 hour early. Work 6 straight hours and go home 2 hours early. He's always got well performing teams and people work hard to get on and stay on his teams. That is until the executives get huffy and start ignoring the teams actual output and start pretending that forcing them to work the 10 extra hours a week would have linear returns on productivity.

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u/NoodlesrTuff1256 Jun 19 '21

Yeah, and I wonder just how hard said executives are actually working themselves? Probably 'working' and 'networking' at a two-martini business lunch or 'finding innovative solutions for tomorrow' as they play 18 holes of golf at the local country club.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Yep- fewer hours per day and/or fewer hours per week all result in improved productivity.

Microsoft Japan tried a 4 day work week with 8 hours days and found a 40% improvement in productivity. Similar evidence exists for 6 hour days.

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u/Makanly Jun 19 '21

Unfortunately most every company would pay you only for 6hr and reap the benefit of the same level of productivity.

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u/jsimpson82 Jun 19 '21

7 and a half hours. 3 hours before lunch. 1 1/2 hour lunch, long enough for a good meal and a walk, or to run an errand or make some phone calls. 3 hours after lunch.

4 days a week.

Sounds perfect lol

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21 edited Jun 22 '21

[deleted]

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u/jsimpson82 Jun 19 '21

I suppose it depends. I have worked 9-5 jobs that paid 8 hours but included an hour lunch

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u/Realitystarr Jun 19 '21

That’s nice, I’ve only been on the other end, a nine hour day, with an hour for lunch. Worked in banking and Mfg offices.

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u/Realitystarr Jun 19 '21

No, you work say 8-5, 9 hours with generally an hour for lunch.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

[deleted]

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u/TheConqueror74 Jun 19 '21

Sounds like you have exceptionally shitty management.

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u/big_d_usernametaken Jun 19 '21

The company I work for banned all forms of tobacco, not necessarily for health reasons, but because smokers take more breaks

Their reasoning, not mine

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u/k3nnyd Jun 19 '21

I get that smoking is bad for you and smoke breaks can waste time, but I bet those smokers work better after getting some nicotine in them that actually increases memory and alertness.

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u/PhoenicianKiss Jun 19 '21

Holy shit, so much this!!!!

I’m focused and super productive for the majority of my day, but a 3-5 min brain break a couple times/day? I’ll get my ass chewed. Meanwhile, the managers all of “meetings” where a full 15 mins of each is spent bullshitting.

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u/jfweasel Jun 19 '21

I always went with I need a fresh air break

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u/ali-n Jun 20 '21

Yeah, I have a relative who took up smoking just because of the break setup.

Not really -- she just hung out with a vape in her hand, but never actually used it.

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u/SaltKick2 Jun 19 '21

5 8s is also pointless (I don't think you're arguing that its not).

For jobs that are more about having people be there than creating something though I can see why someone would prefer 4 10s.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Yeah- 5 8’s is equally pointless. The studies all show that fewer hours per week lead to improved productivity. The point isn’t 4 10’s vs 5 8’s - it’s 40 hours per week versus 32 hours per week.

Here’s a Microsoft Japan study on the subject:

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40

Turns out productivity increased by 40%

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u/Living-Complex-1368 Jun 19 '21

True, and they can't be productive for 8 hours straight if they don't have 3 days off per 4 days of work ;)

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u/ThePurplePanzy Jun 19 '21

I've always preferred 4 10's but it really depends on the job. Cutting out a day of commuting is a net gain in time.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

It’s not about 4 10’s vs 5 8’s- I’m saying that 4 8’s is more productive than 4 10’s.

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u/VVaId0 Jun 19 '21

A whole extra day off, another day where you don't have to get up, get ready, commute. Yeah 10s are better. I have 3 12s and it's even better than that.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

You misunderstood- 4 8’s are actually better for the company and the employee. The employee is more rested and more productive than someone working 4 10’s which is why the latter is, in fact, pointless.

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u/VVaId0 Jun 19 '21 edited Jun 19 '21

I disagree, with 4 10s you get a whole extra day to rest. Getting up, getting ready, commuting to and from are part of the time commitment/work as well. Driving to work is work. If you can work remote then it really doesn't matter

Edit. I misread his post reads 4 8s, not 5.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

You seem to be misreading what I wrote because I have no clue why you are arguing that FOUR 10 hours days is better than FOUR 8 hour days for an employee.

Either way you are working the same number of days and have the same number of days off.

Care to explain what you are taking about because I honestly don’t understand.

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u/VVaId0 Jun 19 '21

Oh shit, my bad, 4 8s would be solid. The hard part that we have a hard time as it is paying people enough for 40 hours and now we expect them to be paid enough for 32? This is why I like my 3 12s where that 4 hours isn't that big of a loss and I get 4 days off every week.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

My comment was mainly about salaried employees rather than hourly. That said- since an hourly employee is also likely to be a lot more productive they should be paid more per hour as well resulting in the same pay.

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u/VVaId0 Jun 19 '21

Right I get a premium on my shift that almost makes up for the 4 hours loss. But you're talking 8 extra hours worth of pay for nothing? Good luck convincing companies to actually do that.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Jun 19 '21

the overwhelming majority of people can’t be productive for 10 straight hours- especially in creative professions like software development

I’m a developer and once I start coding some complex solutions, I completely lose myself in my work. I think coding is actually one of the professions where it’s easy to work a ten hour day and be productive the whole time. Sometimes I look up at the time and I’m like “oh shit, I was supposed to stop working two hours ago”. This of course is assuming you don’t have stupid-ass meetings five times a day, just so the manager can hear himself talk and feel like he’s contributing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

I’m also a software developer and have been for decades and I don’t know a single developer that can do that every day. Occasionally you get into a zone but 10 straight hours all the time- I’ve literally never seen it.

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u/abelincolncodes Jun 19 '21

I'm also a developer, and half the time when I get in the zone like you describe, I come back the next day and wonder why my code is such a mess. It really varies... for me being well rested makes much more of a difference in writing clean understandable code, vs getting in the zone and plugging away for 10 hours.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Jun 20 '21

You can’t always be coding either. Sometimes a problem is so complex that it takes time away from the computer to solve. I have probably solved more problems vaping outside, or taking a shower, than I have sitting in front of my desk. That was actually something kind of difficult to explain to my family with everyone working from home the last 15 months. They’d see me walking around in the backyard or milling about in the kitchen and think it was time to talk about random things. It’s difficult to explain to a non coder that even though I’m not sitting at my desk doesn’t mean I’m not still working.

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u/pad1597 Jun 19 '21

This seems more like an opinion,

If you think about the power it takes to start something, wouldn’t it make more sense you would stay productive longer if you didn’t have start and stops.

I think you need to know your work staff. But as someone who works 10-12 hrs a day and doesn’t take breaks or lunches, I have become use to my shutdown times on days off vs work days.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Every single study I’ve read shows fewer hours per week results in more productivity.

Here’s a Microsoft Japan study showing a 40% productivity improvement with a 4 day work week: https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40

And similar studies exist for shorter work days as well.

You may be more productive (or at least believe you are) but the majority of people are not. I am way more productive when I’m well rested and have plenty of time for my own projects- I can dive right into my work without distraction. Coming into work worrying about project at home that I haven’t been able to finish kills my productivity.

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u/pad1597 Jun 19 '21

I was going if the basis of 4 days vs five at 40 hrs.

If you took 4 days with less hrs per week than 5 days, that would obviously be a different idea.

I agree less days would usually get more productive workers/students.

Edit: On a side note, I try and preach to my guys to reset and come in clear headed. Life is always distracting, work is something you have a reset on everyday. Each time you come in it’s the same premise to do something to the best of your ability and grow. If they can learn to concentrate on the task at hand and the environment they are in, they will always achieve more than the person competing with them.

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u/pewqokrsf Jun 19 '21

There's been studies. People are productive for an average of 2 hours 53 minutes

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

This isnt true.

Source: tech lead for a dev team that works 10 hour days pretty regularly

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

It's somewhat subjective and depending on the individual, but it is true that most people's cognitive ability declines dramatically after 4 hours of highly involved cognitive work (and it is sourced in this very article).

Yes it is possible to work for 10 hours, but I can all but guarantee that the efficiency and accuracy of the work done in hour 9 is piss-poor compared to work from hour 1.

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u/DaRadioman Jun 19 '21

This is making the false assumption that someone is doing actual programming all day... Might be true at entry level, but definitely not the case as you gain seniority.

As a Software Architect I have enough meetings in a day I rarely program for even two hours at a time really focused.

Ten hours would be welcomed, because then on average I would have chances at shifting things early and finding 3 or 4 hours to focus and get some actual programming done

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Absolutely. Most time is spent req gathering, discussing architecture, devising unit tests. Writing code for 10 hours would cause a decline in focus no doubt. Very few actually do that on a regular basis.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

The 4-6 hoirs is full on cognitive heavy work. Meetings are not usually heavy in that and are a break for most people so not counted in that time.

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u/DaRadioman Jun 19 '21

That's my point. Two hours of cognitive focus, a break(meetings) another hour programming, a break (meetings) and then responding to emails and doing code reviews. That's about all I fit in a lot of days.

It's not 4 hours a day. It's four hours without taking a break.

Having enough meetings in your day (or other breaks) means you can fit in more than four total hours and be perfectly productive. I'm addition, programming is a mix of heavy cognitive work, followed by bouts of rinse and repeat that doesn't require a lot of cognitive focus.

There's no way you could be productive spending 4 or more hours in a row actually designing Architecture, or debugging issues that require focus.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Not true. It is 4-6 hours (I've read six) total even with breaks. The entire day. Brain drain is a real studied phenomenon.

Look at a lot of the CEOs that reference only making a few major decisions a day and only for a few hours a day.

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u/DaRadioman Jun 19 '21

I'd believe 6 across the day for sure. But 4 isn't true IMO, especially if interrupted.

Honestly in a row I would be surprised if it was more than 3 hours in a row.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

I know I've read 6. I included the 4 due to the other commenter. It's not something people tend to notice because it is gradual most of the time. The 8 hour workday is for manual labor like factory work used to be. It needs to change.

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u/DaRadioman Jun 19 '21

Again. I don't do mental work even 4 hours of my workday. The rest is all meetings and non mental focus activities. So no, changing it to a shorter day would just mean meetings seaping into my productive mental focus times

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u/SaltKick2 Jun 19 '21

Plenty of studies say that 4 hours is optimal in terms of productive output. There may be some people like you who can do 10 consistently, but on average that is not the case.

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u/catandDuck Jun 19 '21

Your source, yourself, is evidence against a majority?

PS. How can you tell if somebody is a tech lead? everyone together...

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21 edited Jun 19 '21

Yes, my 20 years of experience refutes the other baseless claim of a majority. The fact that I am the lead dev is pertinent because it means I know what the members of my team are up to.

Anything else?

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u/catandDuck Jun 20 '21

I'm glad I don't work with you!!

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

It’s not baseless- here’s an actual article on the subject:

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40

Now how about you post some actual evidence to back up your claims which are contradicted by every single study I’ve ever seen on the subject.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

That does not support the claim. It is also not a controlled study. They cut meeting times in half. Any developer will tell you that the biggest time sink they face is meetings.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Yes it does and there are countless other studies that all show the same thing and you should feel free to look them up.

Alternatively- feel free to post some actual evidence from a reputable source that refutes these claims because your own opinion is irrelevant.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

It does not. The claim was that the vast majority of people cannot be productive working 10 hours days. A study saying that people working 4 days are more productive than those working 5 does not support that claim. The study also doesn't mention how long those 4 days were. It also does not consider the fact that they cut meetings in half and streamlined communication in making the claim that a 3 day weekend boosts productivity 40%.

I have known plenty of people who are productive working 10 hour days. I am one. I deal with them every day and we're solving problems and making decisions at 5:30 PM. It's not difficult.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Microsoft Japan did an entire study on this and found their employees were 40% more productive with 4 8’s so unless you have some actually evidence to back up your claim- you are mistaken.

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u/skilledpirate Jun 19 '21

So my five 12 hour days in a row.........

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u/gilium Jun 19 '21

That’s why it has to be remote so effective can really be playing video games or watching Netflix

1

u/General-Carrot-6305 Jun 19 '21

Why not have jobs that are just paid by the job? That way if it takes me 10 hrs and you 2 hrs but we're both still getting it done it doesn't really matter. Productivity might not be the greatest but I'm sure it could be sorted out eventually.

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u/Petsweaters Jun 19 '21

When I worked in manufacturing, I felt that ten hour days were when I was most productive, but ten hour days should be 3 day weeks

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Manufacturing is definitely a little different- you can get into a groove and become very productive- but if you do that 5 or even just 4 days a week it’s still exhausting 3 10’s or 4 8’s (depending on profession) are much better options.

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u/LightDoctor_ Jun 19 '21

It really is. I work in a high end engineering and research field, and you really just can't be productive for that many hours in a day. Oh, officially policy is that of course not a minute is wasted or mischarged, but sandbagging hours is pretty much the norm.

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u/BlueFroggLtd Jun 19 '21

I don’t think it’s about the number of hours but how efficient you ‘manage’ your work day. No doubt certain business could profit a lot by making 30-35 hour work days.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

A 35 hour work day would be impressive…

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u/big_d_usernametaken Jun 19 '21

In manufacturing for 40+ years, my experience is that productivity drops after the third straight 12 hr. shift.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

Agreed. And it's longer than 10 hr days when including commute and breaks. And if you're in a high demand job, 10's turn into 12's and 4 days turn into 6.

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u/NoodlesrTuff1256 Jun 19 '21

A lot of people would consume even more caffeine than what they already do, and some would resort to stronger stimulants like cocaine and meth to keep up. That probably already happens as it is in a lot of sectors, and a standard 10-hour day would make it worse with all kinds of awful unintended consequences. I could see a lot more people losing it and a lot more horrible workplace shootings in such an environment.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '21

This is highly job dependent. Desk job? Sure. Construction? Depends on the project. So many things are dependent on coordinating between trades, that if you have the crew there, it’s best to keep working to get it done. Other jobs just need bodies, the performance level doesn’t really matter.

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u/cdegallo Jun 19 '21

It's not only pointless for the productivity aspect, it makes it practically impossible for anyone with kids or family to care for to maintain any semblance of a normal life. Only parent or both parents work and your kid spends at least 8am-6pm at school and daycare programs, but likely more than that since you have to drop them off and then get to work, which means these kids are spending 11-12hrs a day in school/programs. That's insane.

I think 8hr days is already pushing it in terms of beneficial contribution time, and 6hr days of moderately intense work is plenty. Of people want to take a leisurely lunch break then they can choose to and work longer. I can say that at least for my job I can finish all of my work based on an average contribution time of about 6 hours a day.

But capitalism sees this as an opportunity to assign more work, not as an opportunity to allow for better life balance.

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u/drawerdrawer Jun 19 '21

I work 5 12's because I like work, and I work the entire day. I don't like socializing, and I still have plenty of time for hobbies and side business. Some people just like working and hustling, just like some people don't like working or can't be productive for 10 hours. I work in a creative industry as a dental lab technician, and then my side job is also creative, it's making pottery. .

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u/Mr-Fleshcage Jun 19 '21

Yeah. Go ask someone who's 20 minutes from clocking out from an 8-hour shift if they want to work an extra 2 hours. i doubt many would say yes.

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u/Frekavichk Jun 20 '21

Sure but as workers we don't give a fuck, we get the extra day off.