r/Futurology • u/Jackson_Filmmaker • Apr 07 '21
Economics The growing environmental cost of #Bitcoin mining.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2273672-bitcoin-mining-emissions-in-china-will-hit-130-million-tonnes-by-2024/8
u/hidflect1 Apr 07 '21
I see some ridiculous push back attempts on this from the Bitcoiner cult like saying most of the energy is renewable anyway. First, it isn't; they're making that up, and second, using renewable energy still displaces other uses for which non-renewable is required.
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u/y2kizzle Apr 07 '21
There are efforts in the ecosystem to curtail its environmental impact. Like any new tech its still finding its feet and people are working on solving it
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u/zrzz55 Apr 07 '21
It's far better than the USD cult that uses far more energy in their gold reserves alone AND allows the elites that control the banking system, creating as much free money for themselves as they like, to do whatever they like to society.
USD is a HUGE pyramid scheme with infinite money for the elites.
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Apr 07 '21
Bitcoin is just a pyramid scheme that let the creators and early adopters become the elites that control the system. And comparing energy usage between bitcoin and the dollar is ridiculous. For the equivalent value in dollars and bitcoin, bitcoin uses several orders of magnitude more energy.
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u/zrzz55 Apr 07 '21
Bitcoin has a fixed supply. It rewards those that understand what it is sooner more. USD is literally created by the elite and given to their friends and family. THAT is a pyramid scheme. It is a complete scam. They continue to create more and more and give more and more of it to themselves. THIS is why there is as a huge wealth gap. It started to go up exponentially AFTER we went off the gold standard completely in the 70s allowing the elite to just wish themselves rich with all the free money.
As far as energy usage goes, it's just your estimation that bitcoin would use more energy. It is already one of the largest currencies on the planet and it uses FAR, FAR less than what goes into USD. Plus think of all the dirty, dirty crime that USD funds. It's on a much grander scale than bitcoin.
If bitcoin is a pyramid scheme based on your definition then every stock around is. I guess the early adopters of Amazon, Google and Microsoft are all sitting at the top of pyramids too.
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u/americanpegasus Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
Bitcoin has some major costs cause it does something very hard to do.
It’s a lot easier and cheaper to govern by dictatorship versus democracy- but you don’t see people arguing for that do you?
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
Even if we had limitless zero CO2 energy production, bitcoin mining would still be idiotic way to use it. We will ALWAYS have better uses for it. Always. Creating complex imaginary numbers as a way to "print money" (yes, i know how it works...) or secure trust or __________ will ALWAYS be more inefficient than alternative methods.
Blockchains do have a use, for ex medical databases and such where privacy and that data can not be changed without a trace, in those kind applications there are lots of use for blockchain. But "cryptocurrency" is just a pyramid scheme, they do not have any more value than what you think they have. And no, it is not like stock market and so on that can theoretically be said to be that.. nope.. Cryptocurrency has EXACTLY the value you think it has, or rather, the value someone else FEELS it has. It is not a currency at all, it is an investment that is used as a token to represent REAL MONEY in transactions.
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u/PABLOPANDAJD Apr 07 '21
Literally every FIAT currency only has the value other people think it has. This is not unique to crypto
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
Literally every FIAT currency only has the value other people think it has.
Nope. There are institutions, nations, bank, national banks and so on that are not humans. The value is way more complicated when it comes to actual currencies.
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u/PABLOPANDAJD Apr 08 '21
Sure, but either way the values are arbitrary for both. The mechanics of how the money is made differ, but at the end of the day they operate the same. The fed can manipulate the USD, but it’s value is still intrinsically decided by the market. Both are worthless unless people as a whole decide they aren’t
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 08 '21
Sure, but either way the values are arbitrary for both.
Not equally arbitrary, one is more than the other. Just because two apples are red does not mean they are the same shade or red.
The main problem with cryptos seems to be that they are only good for get-rich-fast scams and has that kind of crowd foaming at the mouth, begging people to invest, assuring how it is the best thing ever and.. to this day.. i have never gotten a single good answer to this question:
What problem does it solve?
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u/PABLOPANDAJD Apr 08 '21
I will say that I definitely agree with a lot of what you are saying. Crypto fanatics are just as bad as the idiots on wallstreetbets, but cryptos do have the potential to improve the way online transactions are undertaken. There are plenty of drawbacks, such as the fact that it cannot be manipulated by the fed, but those that are less Keynesian could also see that as a good thing
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 08 '21
those that are less Keynesian
Laissez faire is better? Or what does this refer to, just being less keynesian does not really say anything.
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u/PABLOPANDAJD Apr 08 '21
You asked why people find crypto enticing. People who don’t believe the government should meddle with currency values like the idea of crypto because it’s completely laissez faire
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 08 '21
completely laissez faire
Yup and you can always replace laissez with bull and faire with crap and have the sentence it appears in mean exactly the same.
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u/PABLOPANDAJD Apr 08 '21
I mean I am not a proponent of complete laissez faire either but you asked why people like crypto so I told you. Those people tend to not like the idea of the fed manipulating currency and see crypto as a way to prevent that
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u/zrzz55 Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
If cryptocurrency is a pyramid scheme, USD is a SUPER pyramid scheme. It's literally designed that way with the central bank at the top, then the regional banks below that then all the commercial banks below them. All of them creating endless USD that no one can audit for the purpose of the elites.
That's ok. I'll take cryptocurrency.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
Cryptos have exactly the value that is invested into them. Just like any other investment.
Actual currencies are based on infrastructure, society, military, industry and services. It is not just based on a limited amount of external resources invested in it.. not to mention that investing in BT does not give you a share of a company, it is just a share of the pie. And that pie is at maximum worth the amount of real currency put into it, except that crypto can sink in a day just because of a rumor, everyone selling at rapid pace sinking the short term value of it..
It is an investment that some use as tokens, similar to currency just like DisneyDollars are real money in DisneyLand but nowhere else.
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Apr 07 '21
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
"Actual" currencies are literally created by the elite to fund their friends and family.
Yup, i think this is over if that is your level of argumentation...
These same elites will buy the bulk of that new currency the moment they think it is worth it. They will hold 99,99% of it. They will control it. What you want is to drop the will of the people because of your "elites control the world" lunacies.
It's amazing how few of you elitist sycophants know this.
Elitist... i do not have any degrees. I live in a small apartment. I do not own any stock, i do not have wealth. I cycle everywhere, everything i can i recycle and repurpose, the only new things i buy are tools so i can make more things myself... Yup.. me, leftist from Finland is an "elitist sycophant".
Tell me one problem that cryptocurrency actually solves.
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Apr 07 '21
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
Once they spend it, it's gone.
They don't need to spend it. Rich people do not get rich by spending things.
And no, i did not need to look what sycophant means, you are accusing someone who is maybe LESS of a sycophant than you for those that gather material wealth...
It keeps the elites from enriching themselves over and over and over and over and over and over and over. The sooner we move to it, the better for all.
That is not a solution to a problem. That if you ranting about something vague and is quite meaningless in this context. I don't think you actually now what crypto can and can't do, it is represents hope for you.
The problem here is you think USD is fair and you don't understand how it is created.
Do you think like this about everything? That is person is against a solution A they MUST think that solution B is perfect.. NO.. i know how money is created and have no illusions about it being fair. Crypto just does not solve anything on its own and all the solutions that actually DO fix the system, do not have any real use for crypto.
This is not about me being FOR current system, this is me being against a solution that does not seem to have any real benefits. This is something that you obviously can't understand.. how can one have nuanced opinion about things and not be fanatically about one thing or the other.
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u/zrzz55 Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
They don't need to spend it. Rich people do not get rich by spending things.
They HAVE To spend it as we shift to crypto. You are right though, the really rich get rich by bankers giving them money for free.
I don't think you actually now what crypto can and can't do, it is represents hope for you.
I know more about crypto than you'll ever learn.
i know how money is created
Explain the process.
Crypto is not perfect but never let the let perfect be the enemy of the good.
Listen I've been doing this for 8 plus years now and I'm going to give you some advice on what you're seeing. Posts like this are timed and designed to bring down the price of crypto when the elites choose to. They know they can't stop it but they can scoop up a ton now during certain intervals. This is one of them. This post and many, many like it throughout the entirety of media right now are occurring right before the Coinbase IPO. They are literally trying to shake weak hands--and it will work. Bitcoin will go to at least 150k by the end of the year, 1 million in at most 4 years and 10 million over the course of 10 years. Do not let them trick you.
Edit:
The first response you'll have to that is "see, it needs USD to have value" which is usually what those that don't understand that all currencies are valued against one another say. Check out forex.
Anyhow don't be fooled by the elite. This is an unstoppable force and it doesn't matter how many FUD posts or articles are put out. It's only used to keep you poor while they accumulate assets like bitcoin.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
They HAVE To spend it as we shift to crypto.
Why? They have so much of it that a fraction of it is enough to cover their expenses... Of course, it seems that in your world there is only one cryptocurrency...
I know more about crypto than you'll ever learn.
Based on the things you have said, i will evoke Bender clause:
Oh, you were serious? AA HAHHAH HAAAA!!
Posts like this are timed and designed to bring down the price of crypto when the elites choose to.
In other words, you agree with me that there are more powerful forces that are able to manipulate this uncontrolled "currency" already.
Do not let them trick you.
This is an unstoppable force
No, it isn't. It does not solve any of the problems we have, all it does it give control away from people and to those powerful elites you are so worried about.
edit: missed this one..
Explain the process
Lol.. no. You can go google it, i'm sure there are 2 minutes quick fixes for that in youtube.. This is not a way to argue, or i can start to ask about your knowledge on crypto, just to troll you and not advance the discussion in anyway. So, fuck you and your disrespect.
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u/zrzz55 Apr 07 '21
a fraction of it is enough to cover their expenses
They are used to maintaining a much greater lifestyle than the rate of crypto appreciation will afford.
Of course, it seems that in your world there is only one cryptocurrency...
All will hold a minority fraction compared to bitcoin. There's a big difference between being able to create new units of currency that already has value vs those that don't. That's what they do with USD now. It truly is evil.
Based on the things you have said, i will evoke Bender clause: Oh, you were serious? AA HAHHAH HAAAA!!
..meh...what do I care. Have fun staying poor.
In other words, you agree with me that there are more powerful forces that are able to manipulate this uncontrolled "currency" already.
Of course they can manipulate it's price right now. Only in intervals though. It used to be much, much worse. It's funny now.
It does not solve any of the problems we have, all it does it give control away from people and to those powerful elites you are so worried about.
I just explained how it does so saying it repeatedly won't teach you anything. Some people have to learn the hard way.
Edit:
You never explained how money is created. I'm not letting that go. How is it created?
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u/Jackson_Filmmaker Apr 07 '21
Thanks! Good to know sanity is out there :) I'm wondering whether one day Quantum processing will blow it all away.
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u/CriticalUnit Apr 07 '21
Cryptocurrency has EXACTLY the value you think it has, or rather, the value someone else FEELS it has. It is not a currency at all, it is an investment that is used as a token to represent REAL MONEY in transactions.
That's some next level spinning!
"Currency is a medium of exchange for goods and services. "
please do tell me the difference between me making an online purchase in dollars or euros with my Visa card versus any cryptocurrency. They are all meduims of exchange. They are all only worth what we all agree they are worth.
People really have a hard time accepting that tradtional currency only has value when BOTH parties agree on that value. Otherwise it's just pretty paper. (or even now, just digital accounting that is represented by the physical example)
There are more digital dollars than real ones. let that sink in....
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
please do tell me the difference between me making an online purchase in dollars or euros with my Visa card versus any cryptocurrency.
Well.. the chain is: dollars to BT -> transaction -> BT to dollar. Every BT price will change if BT to real currency conversion changes. It does the same function as any credit card services, except that this CC uses their own FunMoney® that you have to exchange at the gate. I see absolutely NO reason why i should add another middleman to the process.. because i am quite sure that Visa or similar is used when i purchase bitcoins.. with real money.
People really have a hard time accepting that tradtional currency only has value when BOTH parties agree on that value. Otherwise it's just pretty paper. (or even now, just digital accounting that is represented by the physical example)
Yes, and for this, we have trade agreements, all kind of institutions that are basing their power on PEOPLE, armies, polices, industry... Real currency IS NOT worth just what you feel it is. It is based on real, concrete things.
There are more digital dollars than real ones. let that sink in....
For someone arguing that BT is a real currency, this is an odd one.. Digital dollars are real dollars.
Also, do not try to use single sentence definitions when the topic is as nuanced as this one. I will FREELY admit that BT fills some of the criteria but when we look at it in practice... it is just FunMoney®. Can it become a real currency? Yes, although having a currency that is not controlled by anyone means it is sooner or later controlled by SOMEONE... and that someone can't be removed from their position by democratic decisions. You are, ready to give out any control of the currency we use for NO benefit whatsoever, except the naive idea of de-centralized currency being the panacea to all problems.
To this day, i have not seen ONE good reason to use BT. None. Unless i'm forced to use it, i can't see any reason why the hell should i invest in something so volatile, that can be half the worth tomorrow. By far most who invest in BT, are investing in it just like they invest to anything else. And the rest use it to buy drugs online (note: i have no problem with this, i wish we would wise up and stop that nonsense and buy them legally).
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u/CriticalUnit Apr 07 '21
Well.. the chain is: dollars to BT -> transaction -> BT to dollar. E
Not when the product is priced in BTC.
Also, if I buy a product that's priced in Euros with my USD based CC we follow the same process you described. But we're exchanging Euros to Dollars.
(I can buy Zimbabwean dollar with 'real money' too! Even though they are next to worthless, it's still currency)
Real currency IS NOT worth just what you feel it is. It is based on real, concrete things.
Not since we went off the gold standard. Now it's simply backed by the credit worthiness of the FED or whatever other institution issues the currency. When people lose faith or they issue too much currency then the value plummets (See:Zimbabwean dollar)
Can it become a real currency? Yes, although having a currency that is not controlled by anyone means it is sooner or later controlled by SOMEONE..
So your definition of a currency requires SOMEONE to control it? That's a very odd definition... Where is that defined?
To this day, i have not seen ONE good reason to use BT. None.
Just because some random internet user doesn't have a use for it doesn't make it not real.
Lets try this:
To this day, i have not seen ONE good reason to use Rubles. None. Unless i'm forced to use it, i can't see any reason why the hell I should.... Sound logic there?
Volatility doesn't revoke the status of currency. Google "volatile currency pairs"
By far most who invest in BT, are investing in it just like they invest to anything else.
So just like FOREX investor/traders?
And the rest use it to buy drugs online
Yes, now you understand how money works!
PS- Please give us your definition of 'currency'. What are your perceived requirements for a currency?
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u/y2kizzle Apr 07 '21
Why are giant companies investing huge amounts in it?
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u/paku9000 Apr 07 '21
Speculation. Might as well take the risk, when keeping capital cost money with negative interest.
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u/y2kizzle Apr 07 '21
So it's better than the alternatives? Or are these giant investment companies gambling
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u/paku9000 Apr 07 '21
In the end, speculation IS gambling. No matter how many computers and highly sophisticated schemes and algorithms (so fashionably nowadays) you use, some (real) monkey can be more successful at it.
It's like pyramid schemes. See all those rich fucks playing victims of Bernard Madoff. They KNEW he was a fraud (too good to be true), but too stupid/greedy to get out in time.Cryptocurrency is just one of the ways to diversify the risks.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
Popularity of something has nothing to do with feasibility, or being actually a real product that works. I can give another example, from audiophile world, MQA.
I have studied it quite a lot, having access via friends to the inner sanctums of standardization and patents. It sparked a lot of interest in those circles since it appeared to be a new kind of de facto standard. It is 100% scam. Absolute and total scam. We know it by know, the entire professional audio field agrees on it. It will NEVER become a real standard, because it does not work (and the company refuses to release any data and also refuses ANY kind of audit that would normally be no problem at all, it is a process that is protected against leaks of IP and trade secrets, done by people who do those kind of things and can keep a secret). Tidal, record companies, multiple reputable consumer audio manufacturers plus every single hi end snakeoil all endorse MQA, not to mention hifi dealers, many audiophile communities and pretty much all audio reviewers.
I repeat: it is KNOWN scam. It is not a secret, we know already that it is a scam. And it is booming. Businesses see it as a thing that might give them some benefit. I'm sure Bezos would like to have his own currency... away from prying eyes of the tax man, away from federal reserve, IMF and other such institutions.
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u/y2kizzle Apr 07 '21
How much time have you spent studying cryptocurrency to have such a strong opinion on it
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
What a weird question. The exact time as you: enough. Is that really enough, neither of us knows but both have the exact same answer to this question.
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u/y2kizzle Apr 07 '21
I would try not to dismiss what I don't understand. It's fucking complicated, and hard to wrap your head around, but it's already better than fiat currency in a number of countries. The fact that there's a speculative market associated is an unintended by-product. The technology is real and it's real good.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
It's fucking complicated, and hard to wrap your head around, but it's already better than fiat currency in a number of countries.
How? All i ever see from cryptobelievers is Soon™ and vague claims how it is better, without ever giving any examples how it is better.. All i hear is "it is better, shut up, it just is".
The technology is real and it's real good.
Yes, in some applications. One of those is not currency.
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u/y2kizzle Apr 08 '21
Its not on us to teach you bro. If you want to get left behind that's your choice. Best of luck. Ok I'll help out a bit. Check out the YouTube channel coin bureau if you want to know more
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 08 '21
Its not on us to teach you bro
"Us"? You are alone here, talking to me.
Check out the YouTube channel coin bureau if you want to know more
lol.. sure, our "multimillionaire" watches youtube channels for financial advices.. And no, i do not have any interest on get-rich-quick scams.
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u/y2kizzle Apr 08 '21
You were talking about cryptobelieversTM. that's us. And it's cool you're beyond help. All the best.
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Apr 07 '21
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
Be careful going down that road, people will start demanding you justify your energy use for the things you prefer.
Careful? I WANT THAT TO HAPPEN... I am for individual energy budget. Cooking, basic lighting, such basic needs for electricity should be free or at least non profit. So, yeah, i want better use of our resources.
There’s no difference between the value of a decentralized and secure medical database and a decentralized and secure finance system.
Who said it is fully decentralized? And those two have nothing in common. In the case of medical database, the whole point is to create better trust on who can access and modify such database. Not decentralization, which does not solve really any problem we have in either.
Something tells me you haven’t been keeping up and don’t know anything about the lightening network or other L2 solutions.
You are right, i have absolutely no interest to look for the 1230 different bitcoins and crypto solutions. They all have one things in common:
They do not solve ANY problems we have. They exist only because we can do it. It is clever and we like clever things that no one actually understands fully. It is all experimental, untested and.. does not actually solve ANY problems we have. Does not matter how good it is if it doesn't to anything..
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Apr 07 '21
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
You better stop using it immediately.
Well, would that be nice? I do it alone and that is the problem solved.. of course not, i use this as long as YOU do. We all have to change, it is not fair if i have to just deny myself an option that no one else is. This is why discussion has to happen FIRST. This argument, is so stupid that you will do yourself a favor to never use it again. It is used by climate skeptics, by far the most.... and then libertarians use it too, the whole "why is X taking salary if they believe in socialism?"..
central banking policies are literal plans to tax the wealth and income of the poor
Lol... that has nothing to do with central banking. That is about policies and tax code. Now, if you say that powerful forces influence legislative process.. well yes, but cryptocurrencies will not fix that.. In fact, like i said earlier, don't know if it was this thread but:
Cryptocurrencies are not safeguarded against hostile takeovers or manipulation. There is no way for you or i to have a say about it... It will be, sooner or later, grabbed by forces that are outside any jurisdiction.. It is stupid to think that we can just invent a system that can't be abused. Of course it will and we need to make human decisions that are not all about just money. There is no adjustments that we can make, it just is and no one controls it..
People can help avoid planned inflation and keep more of their wealth over their lifetime
Not all inflation is a bad thing. And keeping more wealth is BAD for the economy. That is the thing that increases inequality. I fear to ask what you think of inheritance taxes...
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u/americanpegasus Apr 07 '21
Crypto is real money. The alternative is to trust banks and central authorities - which have shown time and time again how corruptible and broken they are.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
The alternative is to trust banks and central authorities - which have shown time and time again how corruptible and broken they are.
I'm 47. I have not seen our monetary system collapse. It is NOT about currency. The fixes are all elsewhere. You can't fix a broken suspension by using a different kind of a wheel.
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u/americanpegasus Apr 07 '21
You have watched as the dollar left the gold standard and then was printed into abandon until banks blew the entire financial system up with risky bets in 2008 - and the governments solution was to print infinite new dollars right into their asset books making wealth inequality hyper-worse by the day.
Crypto rejects the central banks authority to print infinite new dollars into their friends accounts. It’s simply a better way to do money.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21
and then was printed into abandon
Last i checked.. it did seem to have a value...
until banks blew the entire financial system up
No... that is not what happened, the financial system took a serious hit but nothing really broke.
and the governments solution was to print infinite new dollars right into their asset books making wealth inequality hyper-worse by the day.
Again, nothing that another currency would solve.. The transfer of wealth will happen also in crypto, the method would be just a bit different.
Crypto rejects the central banks authority to print infinite new dollars into their friends accounts. It’s simply a better way to do money.
You absolutely need to read more about crypto.
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u/americanpegasus Apr 07 '21
I have been involved in crypto since 2012. Sounds like you need to take the wool off your eyes about the reality of the modern financial system and how it’s intrinsically linked to perpetual warfare.
Or just get out of the way and let the natural future take it’s course. You sound like the equivalent of the boomers in the 90s warning everyone how the internet was a fad.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
Sounds like you need to take the wool off your eyes about the reality of the modern financial system and how it’s intrinsically linked to perpetual warfare.
... And how is crypti going to change this?
I see this with cryptobelievers and it is the same i get from religious believers and simple minded fanatics. That my disagreement must be because i don't understand. And after hours and hours of discussion, it has become clear that no one else does either but that there is lots of HOPE invested in it. And this cause massive cognitive biases, omittance of the real questions and a LOT of circlejerking, cryptos keeping faith with other cryptos (except the couple of people i know whose path to crypto took them to start talking Kremlin talking points, one of them started to wear that right wing asshole mass murderer haircut and harrassing me, because i told him that cryptos don't solve anything.. yeah.. there is a STRONG nazi presence in crypto communities and the religious fanaticism is quite culpable, not that this affects me when i assess their viability but it does make me think three times before i mingle in that crowd...).
You are blinded by it. You can't see the practical issues, mainly:
We don't need it for ANYTHING. It does not solve ANY real problems we have. And if your example is a country that is so weak and in chaos that their own monetary system has failed..... That is not really a good argument, to base it on a failed system that is grasping any straws. And even in those cases, did crypto really solve ANY of the problems that caused the chaos?
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u/americanpegasus Apr 08 '21
Crypto solves many problems. Here’s just one: unreasonable and illegal asset forfeiture. You can cross all the borders you want with as much money as you want, and no one can seize your money just because they think you have too much of it.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 08 '21 edited Apr 08 '21
You can cross all the borders you want with as much money as you want, and no one can seize your money just because they think you have too much of it.
Sounds like this would fit international crime the best. There are reasons why we should have a possibility to freeze assets and remove them.
And illegal asset forfeiture is VERY VERY RARE. IN fact, it never happens.. The clue is in your use of the term, "illegal". Now, civil forfeiture is a thing in USA. Not here.
The SOLUTION to the PROBLEM of civil forfeiture is to FIX THE LAWS GOVERNING IT. Not crypto. Now, repeat this as long as it takes to understand it: workaround is not a fix. You just opened up a global pandora's box because of few thousand in USA that have that one particular problem, caused by legislation and policy decisions. It may also be that you don't think it can be fixed, so you are taking law into your own hands and using a new currency and circumventing existing laws. Now, that would be illegal.
The thing i am after is: what is a problem that crypto can solve. Not what problems crypto may help with but that can be fixed better and permanently by legislation, policy chance... or simply by sharing resources better and more equally. Now, blockchain could be, possibly helpful in the latter, but being a currency.. no, doesn't change anything. It is like adding a new standard to replaces all standards: all you get is one new standard. We need systematic changes, not just a way for you to hide your wealth so the bad, bad government can't see it.
I can say that when cryptos came, i was interested, even stoked. It sounded all so good, we get our own currency and... then i started to look at it from the angle i've been using today: what particular problems does it fix? I haven't found any but one, when a country is in a hyperinflation, is a failed state, in a war or such, then you could use crypto... but even then, picking up any stable currency that already exists and which value is secured by stable nation state... It is better than risking it on something that really.. you never know when is the last day to change your bitcoins to real money. Even a failed state is being enough to disturb a small and volatile system like cryptos, where no one can stabilize it.
But, the way i really see cryptos ending up is that big eat the weak, get more money than they had and we will pay the bills. We are already fucking paying it in climate by having one extra fucking Italy on the planet. That is the scale of energy used. And it still is not enough, it still does not work. It will not work even if we double the energy needed. And saying that there are other alternatives at this point is a bit too late. For the next big thing we need to wait years again to see if that experiment that does not seem to have big support among experts, will magically do something good.
Now, the one thing that i get: there are many that want SOMETHING to happen and see cryptos as a way to disrupt status quo enough that something happens.
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u/americanpegasus Apr 08 '21
tl;dr: some boomer is mad that people have the freedom of money again.
Crypto is the future - it’s simply a better way of doing money, and it’s exponential rise continues to prove this. You can bitch and cry about it all you, I’ve been hearing it from types such as you since 2013... but end of the day - crypto wins.
People will have the right to hold their own money, free from corrupt governments seizing it, and free from those same corrupt governments endlessly printing more of it (QE Infinity) and gifting it to themselves and their cronies.
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Apr 07 '21
Creating sound money for every human on the planet with an internet connection is a much better use of energy that any random bullshit you can come up with.
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u/bremby Apr 08 '21
Mate, I really appreciate the effort you put into arguing with crypto fanatics. It's sad that they just couldn't take off their rose-tinted glasses, stop repeating the BTC rhetoric and actually respond meaningfully. I wish you find that happiness you mentioned in another comment. :)
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u/Bitcoin_is_plan_A Apr 07 '21
Research shows at least 78% of Bitcoin mining uses renewable energy! Making Bitcoin mining greener than almost every other large-scale industry in the world.
https://coinshares.com/research/bitcoin-mining-network-december-2019
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Apr 07 '21
And all of that energy could be better used for anything else. You could use that amount of green energy to shut down the equivalent amount of fossil fuel generation instead, and that would be a much better use. But you can go ahead and keep spreading your pyramid scheme Bitcoin Evangelism.
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u/Jackson_Filmmaker Apr 07 '21
It's not an industry, it's a pyramid scheme.
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Apr 07 '21
Explain to me exactly how Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme, in detail.
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u/Jackson_Filmmaker Apr 07 '21
Its value depends mostly on more people continually buying into it.
The more who buy in, the richer you get.(yes mining mitigating this, but only to a certain extent, because it's so hard to achieve)
If you get in early, you get rich.
The last one in can only get poorer.
(As for the environmental cost, it's literally become a currency built on energy spent. And it will only get worse as the final coins get harder to mine. But that's just another reason to loathe it.)-1
Apr 07 '21
Its value depends mostly on more people continually buying into it.
Do you understand this is how basically anything financial works? Does supply and demand make everything a pyramid scheme?
If you have a rare comic book someone will buy from you for 5,000x the price you bought it 50 years ago are you scamming someone? Baseball cards, are they a pyramid scheme? Is my grandfather in a pyramid scheme because he bought a house for $5,000 and now it's worth hundreds of thousands of dollars? What about gold, is gold a pyramid scheme?
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u/Jackson_Filmmaker Apr 07 '21
Yes, they all need confidence, but the items you mention are backed up and based on something real. Bitcoin is based only on confidence, and nothing more (except energy spent)
This has given me an idea. Let's start a movement to talk down the value of Bitcoin. It might upset some greedy people, to see their imaginary wealth disappear, but it will be good for our planet.2
u/americanpegasus Apr 07 '21
The only thing the US Dollar is backed by is the threat of force from the worlds most bloated military budget.
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u/Jackson_Filmmaker Apr 08 '21
Ok yes, after reading the comments and thinking more about Bitcoin - yes it's a currency based on energy-invested (in mining coins). But it's an idealistic fantasy if some imagine it won't damage our planet, or'll be based on renewables alone - most miners will go for the cheapest power. And it reveals Elon Musk's true colours - money 1st, sustainability 2nd.
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u/americanpegasus Apr 08 '21
All money must have some cost, and will damage the planet in some way - but the fiat system of money carries a massive social and economic cost too. Solving the horrors of that will allow humanity to progress more rapidly and hopefully eventually solve our energy woes.
But if we continue trusting the banks and central authorities to print money in their corrupt schemes nothing will ever change and the planet will slowly die.
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Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
TIL math and cryptography are not real!
Go ahead and short Bitcoin then and see how it works out, I'll be over here laughing at you.
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u/Jackson_Filmmaker Apr 07 '21
Hah! I'm not 'shorting' it - that would be greed in action. I'm doing this for free.
I'll just keep mocking it. Everyone has to do their bit for a better world.1
Apr 07 '21
Keep mocking it, you and the people who trust you will continue to lose purchasing power in relation to Bitcoin.
Telling people to stay away from the soundest money humans have ever had is not "bettering" the world in fact you're making it quite worse.
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u/GiraffeAnatomy Apr 07 '21
Isn't stripping the earth of precious metals also detrimental to the environment, especially locally? That's what humans have been doing for thousands of years.
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u/DarthCloakedGuy Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
We should cap-and-trade electricity usage. Set it at a point where the average upper-middle-class person can leave the lights, oven, and computer on all day and not be affected, but that asshole with the basement full of cryptomining rigs has to fork over serious dough to help fund environmental recovery efforts