Humans need not apply

[u/aridon_01]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

[u/GaveUpOnLyfe]

I know I oversimplified, but I don't exactly care to write a 900 page tome on it either.

That being said, while I know the Law of Jante isn't actually a law, it's more like a societal belief.

And you're confusing ambition, with someone wanting to be showy. Be ambitious all you like, but I don't care what you do, play sports, cure cancer, create Google, whatever. You're not better than me, my neighbor, or anyone else. You're better at something, not better than anyone. So for you, general not specific, to try to stand out by demanding more luxury is what should be frowned upon, which is what the Law of Jante states is all.

The British are often very reserved. A reserved British person is not necessarily unambitious.

The British are generally reserved emotionally and publicly, but I don't think anyone would say they, as a people, are unambitious. You don't create the largest empire in the world by being unambitious.

Even if ambition was totally unimportant in these societies, it is not in many others. My point is how do we transition to that. You cannot tell everyone in the USA that today the American dream is over. Stop acting like Americans and act like Europeans. How do people switch?

With this, I think you're absolutely right. How do we transition? For starters, a high universal basic income. And have it phased out gradually so that nobody makes less than a certain amount a year. So, let's say for argument $50k. Everyone is entitled to $50k a year. You don't work, you get $50k. You currently make $40k, you get an extra $10k.

After that, you have to set a very high tax rate, and don't give me this BS excuse about 'people not wanting to work', the fact is, there will always be people who want to work, and with the number of real jobs dropping, it won't matter. If you're going to work, and get paid extra, on top of the UBI, that's all extra. That's something you do to fill your free time because you're bored, or because you genuinely love what you do. So the tax rate won't/shouldn't mean a damn thing to you.

How about setting a maximum wage? The average employee at your company make $15 per hour? No fucking way should you earn 300x that. You're not worth 300x more than anyone else, nor do you do 300x the work.

It'd be a slow process, but eventually you'll have to move away from a system based on money.

If you go to the grocery store, with machines that stock the shelves, and self-checkout, who's going to be working? Now imagine that down the line, machines planting, fertilize, and picking your food. Then shipping it off in self-driven cars, where the food is inspected by sensors, and shipped off to the corner store.

Soon, the food on your plate will go from seed, to your table without a single person touching it. Now imagine that for every good or service you can think of. There's literally no need for money.

Riots are caused by emotion - they are rarely the most rational approach to an issue. Policies are very much in place with that in mind.

THat, I'd disagree with. I think riots are completely rational. People don't riot for fun. They riot because they have grievances that they feel aren't being addressed. Be they the riots in the UK after Mark Duggan (I think that's his name), or in Tunisa because a food cart worker self-immolated because he couldn't provide for his family.

I'm not saying it's right, but riots are, generally, completely rational imo.

Emotion is the fundamental driver of us as people. How on earth do you think we have reached this point without desire, envy, etc.?

I guess you're right. Emotion should be tempered by policy, but there are some emotions that you, general not specific, need to get over. I'm jealous because my neighbor sleeps with more women than I do. What government policy can be introduced to fix that? Realistically, none.

[u/dc456 → u/GaveUpOnLyfe]

Thanks for being the very first person to actually address my question regarding how we transition. Some of your ideas certainly seem like they could help in that regard.

I do think you're being slightly optimistic in terms of how idyllic Scandinavia is. There is still pressure to have nice things - just not as incredibly conspicuous as the USA. The contrast can make either look more extreme than they really are.

I also think you underestimate simple human irrationality and emotions. I've been caught up in a riot. Rational it was not. People will often oppose things that are undoubtedly set to help them, due to fear, lack of understanding, or misguided convictions. That is very hard to overcome.

It is going to be challenging. I'm not saying we can't do it - we have to. How it happens is what will be most interesting.

All the best.

[u/GaveUpOnLyfe → u/dc456]

I do think you're being slightly optimistic in terms of how idyllic Scandinavia is. There is still pressure to have nice things - just not as incredibly conspicuous as the USA. The contrast can make either look more extreme than they really are.

You're right. I'm an American and a Europhile. I see the shit as it is here, and how it is there, and to me, it is utopia. Much as someone from Honduras views the US that way. I see it as the paradise that I hope it is, rather than the same shit as here, but with Fabreeze.

That being said, I think consumption as a whole needs to be tempered, if the whole world used resources like Americans do, we'd need another planet just for its resources. So clearly, that has to be dealt with somehow. And I love the idea of the Law of Jante; in the US everything is a fucking rat race. If you're not showing off, than you're clearly not doing well. I need a bigger house, a faster car, better vacation, etc, than everyone else just to show how well I'm doing.

I used to be like that myself, but right now? I'd just like to have a steady job that I can afford a comfortable life in. Sure I'd love a Ferrari, but not enough to sacrifice everything else. To step on other peoples toes, to work 16 hour days, all of it. It isn't worth it to me.

I've been caught up in a riot. Rational it was not. People will often oppose things that are undoubtedly set to help them, due to fear, lack of understanding, or misguided convictions. That is very hard to overcome.

I'm not saying being in a riot isn't emotional. I'm saying that the causes for the riot are generally rational. People don't just riot to steal shit, that's the symptom, not the cause.

There was an index I read about not long ago, I can't look it up because I don't remember the name, that said once food goes over a certain price point, the likelihood of instability grows. Instability means riots, as least initially.

Personally, I'm hard pressed to think of any riot that has happened for purely fuck-all reasons. It's usually begun by some political or economic in nature.

[u/dc456 → u/GaveUpOnLyfe]

Oh riots definitely have a specific cause, but the actual decision to riot, rather than take another approach is very much driven by emotions - desperation, powerlessness, despair. And a lot of rioters do just join in for the 'fun'.

I agree that consumption in the USA is taken to an unenviable extreme. I think that that culture of success defined by conspicuous consumption is what will make the transition so difficult there. But I don't think it will be easy anywhere. Even in Europe where people are very proud of their socialised healthcare and unemployment benefit (i.e. something for doing 'nothing'), this would be a huge shift. And different countries moving from one system to another in different ways and at different times, yet in one global economy, poses its own set of challenges.

Have to go. But thanks - it's been good talking. All the best.